More Rad lawsuit fallout? (good for the consumer)

[m@Robertson]

As part of the other discussions involving the Rad lawsuit, where the mechanical disk brakes are flagged as being part of the problem in that case ...

see link for background

In depth article by Bicycling Mag on the lawsuit against Rad regarding a girls death

It is a pretty long story but actually a good read. https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a42690937/molly-steinsapir-lawsuit-rad-power-electric-bike/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

electricbikereview.com

That article does a great job of succinctly explaining the case for hydraulic brakes in basic, mass-market consumer ebikes.

I have said a few times here that I think - regardless of whether or not Rad is found culpable in any way in that lawsuit - ebike manufacturers will start including hydraulic brakes as standard equipment. The bikes commonly weigh double (or more) what their analog cousins do, they go much faster, they are owned by riders who don't have technical skills or inclination to learn. The natural response to the increase in product liability is to include hydraulic brakes as a risk management move.

We've already seen baby steps in this regard. Lectric bikes seems to have taken a big one based on what just came out today:

Lectric eBikes announces major electric bike update that will stop you in your tracks

The popular Lectric XP 3.0 electric bike has just received a major upgrade in the form of new hydraulic disc brakes. All new XP 3.0s will...

electrek.co

Its not clear just how big until you get to the bottom, and see this:.

Hydraulic disc brakes will be a nice upgrade for new Lectric XP 3.0 riders, but what about anyone who bought a Lectric XP 3.0 last week, last month, or even last year?

Fortunately, Lectric eBikes has announced that they’ll be providing a free hydraulic disc brake upgrade kit for any current XP3.0 owners who want one.

A free new brake system for a $999 bike. My take on this is Lectric is not only mitigating their risk on their most popular product, which is arguably the most popular ebike in the USA right now... they are also offering the feature for free to existing owners. A commercial business doesn't do something like that for the warm glow it gets from human kindness.

I think we will see more of this sort of thing as time goes on.

 

[Taylor57]

I've had nothing but positive experiences with Lectric since purchasing a Black XP in 2020. Needed a couple of minor things (new display and the little rubber plug that covers charging port) and they were taken care of right away.

 

[sc00ter]

I saw that Electrek article as well. I'll keep the mechanical disc on my XP 3.0. Only time I haul any weight I keep it slow and I stay on top of the calipers adjustments. I prefer them on a run-about because of the simplicity. The poor little Lectric gets banged around pretty bad. But if they (Lectric) is going to pay a bike shop to install them, wow! That's a nice chunk of change in bike shop labor.

 

[Rider777]

I'll bet that as the highlighted text above states Lectric is ONLY supplying the parts for free.
Not labor.
It also amazes me that for a MSRP of $999 how much can it cost Lectric to build and sell these bikes??? Couple hundred bucks or so???
WOW !

 

[sc00ter]

Before I forget. Do you think they (Rad and Lectric) will install full hydaulic brakes or those hybrid systems, that use a cable into a sealed hydraulic caliper assembly? I was going to try one of those sealed caliper systems in the rear of my XP just to see how it works. I've yet to do any research into them but I know that Bengal brand and Nutt brand, and I see both of them leaking like crazy on ekick scooters.

 

[m@Robertson]

Before I forget. Do you think they (Rad and Lectric) will install full hydaulic brakes or those hybrid systems, that use a cable into a sealed hydraulic caliper assembly? I was going to try one of those sealed caliper systems in the rear of my XP just to see how it works. I've yet to do any research into them but I know that Bengal brand and Nutt brand, and I see both of them leaking like crazy on ekick scooters.

I have had my hands on a Juintech set bought from Area 13 a couple of years ago. I was very impressed with their quality but I never had a chance to install them. They were for my daughter and son-in-law, who moved to a new home and that was the last we saw of the calipers. They're still in a box. Somewhere.

I have no idea about whether these brakes are cabled, but I really doubt it. The concern in part is cables stretching and if Lectric is looking to protect themselves from product liability, I would think they'd go all the way.

 

[Mike_V]

She never hit the brakes, so Prove it.

 

[Gordon71]

I've had a set of Juintech on my rad rover for a year now and like them a lot. I've yet to have to adjust the cable. That said I had no problem with the original brakes easily stopping the bike and only replaced them when something happened to the front caliper and it wouldn't function anymore. I doubt the extra weight of the bike makes too much difference but a 300lb rider vs a 150lb rider probably would. My only thought on full hydraulic is I've heard of problems happening when you turn the bike upside down to change a tire. That might not be true but I seem to have read it somewhere.

 

[m@Robertson]

My only thought on full hydraulic is I've heard of problems happening when you turn the bike upside down to change a tire. That might not be true but I seem to have read it somewhere.

I believe it sends the air bubble that is in the master cylinder (harmless there) down into the caliper. I've never had a need to turn a bicycle upside down to fix a flat roadside, or any other reason. I do have a repair stand which helps eliminate any temptation.

 

[Gordon71]

I believe it sends the air bubble that is in the master cylinder (harmless there) down into the caliper. I've never had a need to turn a bicycle upside down to fix a flat roadside, or any other reason. I do have a repair stand which helps eliminate any temptation.

I just find it easier to install new tires with the bike upside down.

 

[AHicks]

I've had trouble with 2 different bikes equipped with Zoom brakes. The rear brake can be an absolute PIA if it gets air in it - and I generally know what I'm doing when bleeding brakes. Yes, that includes back feeding the system from the rear brake.....

 

[Gionnirocket]

If cable stretch is really what everyone is struggling with... then a high quality $12 stainless cable is far less expensive and leaves the bike easily maintained with basic tools that only requires minimal skill.
Cheap full Hydraulic brakes are going to be far more dangerous especially for the abusive and/or incompetent.
I can't tell you how many times I've stopped to help people who are clueless about even how to switch gears on the rusted chain, bent derailleur, bottom of the barrel bike they ride maybe twice a month. If this is the same market buying $1000 ebikes.... Yeah... what they need is bottom of the barrel Hydraulic brakes.

 

[JRA]

In order to facilitate removing the Bafang M620 motor on my bike, which is over 4kg, I turn my bike upside down and have left it that way for extended periods of time and never had a hydraulic brake issue.

My view is that no matter what type of brakes any company supplies it is ultimately up to the consumer to operate the bike properly and maintain the bikes systems. Bicycles, unless they are fixed gear with no brakes, are prone to wear, especially the brakes and drive train, and to those that are not in tune with this are going to have problems that are potentially hazardous no matter what level of components they have on their bike.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yeah but a world where people take personal responsibility on general principles... and pay f**king attention and learn to either do proper maintenance, or pay someone to do it at a proper interval, is the world we wish we lived in. Not the one we do.

Add compressionless housing to the list of things that can improve mechanical brake performance. Ain't gonna happen. We're going to see how hydros fare when in wide use at the lower end of the price spectrum.

Another note: This is a distinctly American phenomenon as we're a culture that still appreciates bicycles as toys for children and - in the general population - don't understand or even begin to accept that quality costs more money than a low end DTC bike does.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

In order to facilitate removing the Bafang M620 motor on my bike, which is over 4kg, I turn my bike upside down and have left it that way for extended periods of time and never had a hydraulic brake issue.

My view is that no matter what type of brakes any company supplies it is ultimately up to the consumer to operate the bike properly and maintain the bikes systems. Bicycles, unless they are fixed gear with no brakes, are prone to wear, especially the brakes and drive train, and to those that are not in tune with this are going to have problems that are potentially hazardous no matter what level of components they have on their bike.

Same here, no problem upside down

 

[Gionnirocket]

Making the world idiot proof only breeds more idiots.
I say leave everything as is and let natural selection self correct the issue as it's done since the beginning of time

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Yeah but a world where people take personal responsibility on general principles... and pay f**king attention and learn to either do proper maintenance, or pay someone to do it at a proper interval, is the world we wish we lived in. Not the one we do.

Add compressionless housing to the list of things that can improve mechanical brake performance. Ain't gonna happen. We're going to see how hydros fare when in wide use at the lower end of the price spectrum.

Another note: This is a distinctly American phenomenon as we're a culture that still appreciates bicycles as toys for children and - in the general population - don't understand or even begin to accept that quality costs more money than a low end DTC bike does.

Giving everyone hydraulic brakes at best just kicks the responsibility can down the road. Hydraulic brakes do need to be understood and will need maintenance at some point. And even if people didn't need to worry about brakes, there are dozens of other gotchyas, not all of which can be resolved by bike manufacturers putting all of the state-of-the-art, most expensive components into their bikes. I'm not sure such a bike would be any fun to ride anyway.

And since the title of this thread makes it about the Rad lawsuit, I don't think we know for sure that the accident in question was even related to brakes. If we want to accept that it had to do with the QR hub, which, again, I don't think is certain, wouldn't hydraulic brakes caused the same thing?

I'm not against hydraulic brakes at all and there may be very appropriate uses for them, but I know for a fact they aren't necessary in every case; maybe not even better than manual disc brakes.

TT

 

[Taylor57]

Giving everyone hydraulic brakes at best just kicks the responsibility can down the road. Hydraulic brakes do need to be understood and will need maintenance at some point. And even if people didn't need to worry about brakes, there are dozens of other gotchyas, not all of which can be resolved by bike manufacturers putting all of the state-of-the-art, most expensive components into their bikes. I'm not sure such a bike would be any fun to ride anyway.

And since the title of this thread makes it about the Rad lawsuit, I don't think we know for sure that the accident in question was even related to brakes. If we want to accept that it had to do with the QR hub, which, again, I don't think is certain, wouldn't hydraulic brakes caused the same thing?

I'm not against hydraulic brakes at all and there may be very appropriate uses for them, but I know for a fact they aren't necessary in every case; maybe not even better than manual disc brakes.

TT

Why not just go back to Freddy Style. Through the courtesy of Fred's two feet. We'll have a gay old time...

 

[JRA]

"If we want to accept that it had to do with the QR hub, which, again, I don't think is certain, wouldn't hydraulic brakes caused the same thing?"

Yeah just sooner.

The one thing I can think of is for the industry at the low end to adopt at least the 12mm thru-axle if not the 15mm. But they can still be used improperly.

 

[m@Robertson]

The thing to remember about that lawsuit is they sued for product liability, and without regard to the individual facts of that crash, there's a strong case to be made that heavy ebikes have problematic brakes when owned by the general, non-technical consumer - who just happens to be the target customer. So in the interest of liability limitation, we can expect to see some risk management action on the part of manufacturers who take the exposure to risk (the risk is to profits via litigation) seriously.

It seemed to me at the time the low hanging fruit from the corporate perspective was to start putting on hydraulic brakes. Doesn't matter if they are better. It gives the company a defense to an argument that, like it or not, has legs. Just offering them is enough. If there's an accident down the road the vendor can say hey we offered its on them for not taking us up on it. Its not so much about safety as it is creating an escape hatch that Legal can use.

Speaking of which I am participating in another thread on a different forum, helping someone with their (compromised from the factory - pad-to-rotor fitment mismatch that is pretty bad) Lectric XP 3.0 brake system. He just got an email from Lectric notifying him he will get a free brake kit offer soon, with install instructions. They say he is free to have an LBS do an install but the cost is on him if he does.