ebikes need more torque IMO

[TForan]

Bosch was pretty smart with their mid drive motor design. By having a smaller front chain ring spinning at 2.5 X of the cranks there is less torque loss at higher speeds. I'm not sure exactly sure how much the internal gearing in the motor impacts this but they do tend to be better at speeds over 20mph than the other mid drive systems which larger front chain rings spinning at the same speed as the cranks.

Mid drives are optimized more for slower speed hill climbing which is where most riders want/need the assistance.

That said, I sill believe that hub drive motors have a distinct advantage at higher speeds because the motor torque is directly applied at the wheel. A higher power direct drive hub drive system (nothing exotic but something in the range of 1000-1500W) will typically allow for much higher sustained speeds up moderate hills vs a mid drive system which can be a significant time savings if you are commuting a long distance on an ebike. The industry just doesn't talk much about this because as I said earlier most of the investment money is going towards mid drives which are more efficient at the typical speeds of most riders (that 10-15mph range). I think a lot of urban commute riders like to ride in that 20-25mph range which hub motors will typically excel at.

I could cruise at 25+ for as long as I wanted to with my mid-drive with little effort.

 

[Jerry LM]

My mid drive Evelo with the auto rear hub has no problem maintaining speed of 28 mph if the winds are not in my face and I can continue pedaling at that speed, but I see NO advantage to a hub motor over mid drive in any way whatsoever. With the electronic shifting I am usually riding in PAS 1 and sometimes 2 but seldom go up to 3,4,5 and cruise around the 16/18 mph mark. Hills are not a problem if I shift down but sometimes I use less assist just for the challenge and if I am burned out just hit throttle and have yet to climb a hill it can't overcome. Mine is rated at 100nm and 750W so for me it's more than enough.
Here on the Oregon coast hills are everywhere and some are literally miles long at steady grade. I rode a regular road bike for years when I was younger and took on them all, but couldn't do it today, so the e bike is great. I almost purchased a Vespa but I am glad I opted for the bike, quiet and gets me where I want to go. I had a 500W prior to this one and it was good as well but the extra power for me is appreciated, don't always need it but nice to know it's there.

 

[Johnny]

Love our new ebikes, mine with Yamaha PW-SE motor and wifes with Shimano steps 6000. After riding 50mi. or so we both wish they had more torque for hill climbing. I understand that if they are made too powerful we'll lose access to trails but neither of us were expecting as much of a workout as we are getting riding these bikes. . One of the big reasons I wanted the Yamaha YDX torc was for the PW-X motor which has 15% more torque than the SE. I'd want even more than that though. Of course more torque would come with more watts used so the battery would have to be even bigger. It will be interesting to see what the future brings for ebikes. Flame suit on

As others pointed your problem is not torque. even 40nm is plenty, your problem is probably the speed you want to climb. Use the right gear and slow down then you will climb anywhere.

To climb at higher speeds you need more power and you can not have it with the current limitations. Because of power limitations your maximum torque will come at lower speeds.

 

[linklemming]

As others pointed your problem is not torque. even 40nm is plenty, your problem is probably the speed you want to climb. Use the right gear and slow down then you will climb anywhere.

To climb at higher speeds you need more power and you can not have it with the current limitations. Because of power limitations your maximum torque will come at lower speeds.

Agreed, I have gone up stuff on my brose equipped hardtail so steep I had to basically put my chest on the handlebar to keep the front end on the ground, I wasnt even trying that hard power wise and still had lower gears. My bike is rare in having a double front chainring (28/38) combined that with an 11-42 rear cassette.

 

[Johnny]

I don't know what kind of motorcycle you have, but for the purpose of comparison, let's bring a beginner motorcycle, which typically have less torque.

Let's talk about Honda CBR250R, although it is much heavier (6x heavier) than typical ebikes and make much less torque (1/3 compare to ebike), it somehow goes whole a lot faster.

Also we all know that internal combustion engine can only produce max torque or horsepower at very specific rpm, so for the majority of time, even at full throttle, it won't be producing max power/torque for the majority of time.

Despite the disadvantage of internal combustion engine, it somehow goes faster.. so that's why I was guessing the horsepower may be the key. Or perhaps the gearing as Ken M mentioned.

My point is, when 19Nm of torque is plenty to move a 366 lb motorcycle to 90mph, why are we complaining about ebike's 60-75Nm? So that's why I'm trying to get my head around on what's missing...

Honda CBR250R
249cc single cylinder
27 horsepower @ 8,500rpm
19 Nm of torque @ 6,750rpm
Weight: 366 lbs
0-60mph: 7.5 seconds
Max Speed: 90mph (144km/h)

Torque by itself is meaningless. The problem is at what rpm you are producing that Torque.

In your example 19nm is produced at 6750 rpm , in our ebikes it is at say 120rpm max. That is a huge difference in the power output.

27hp is around 20 000 watts your ebike is around 350W.

 

[DDBB]

Why does my sport bike with 130 HP and 90NM of torque give me spatial disorientation on full throttle from a dead stop but 70NM of torque on an ebike feels like just a gentle push and quite underwhelming

 

[MarkF]

Because electric bikes are not motorcycles despite what some on here would like to tell you. I would like to maintain my 20 mph ride as well and not slow down to 7 mph everytime I hit a hill. More torque folks.

 

[Johnny]

Why does my sport bike with 130 HP and 90NM of torque give me spatial disorientation on full throttle from a dead stop but 70NM of torque on an ebike feels like just a gentle push and quite underwhelming

Because your sport bike is producing 130 hp while the peak of your ebike is only producing 0.5 hp. What pushes you is the power you put on the "wheels" not the torque produced at the crank.

Force x velocity is your power. With 130hp even at 100mph you can put lots of force at the wheels to push you, with your ebike having only 0.5 hp dont expect to be pushed after the first few mph.

 

[DDBB]

But the sport bike still out accelerates the e-bike from a dead stop to even just 10mph, hands down. I guess we need more horsepower

 

[AHicks]

But the sport bike still out accelerates the e-bike from a dead stop to even just 10mph, hands down. I guess we need more horsepower

Not so fast! Consider for a second that maybe your e-bike was programed in a manner where it starts smoothly when given full power. I call that "soft start", and it drives me batty. If I want to cross a busy road I want the power to come on like your motorcycle - at whatever level I tell it to. This was one of the bigger reasons I had for replacing the Rad electronics.

Rad bikes have plenty of power on tap, but they are set up in the controller to accelerate softly - so as not to startle anyone with what's really available. Some like this feature, some (myself included) not so much. -Al

 

[DDBB]

It's a Yamaha PW motor. It will give me a good "push" with just pedal pressure from a dead stop but wimps out quickly. Sure doesn't feel like 80NM

 

[vincent]

ahicks on the rad bikes does the throttle not override that and scoot you across the street? I haven't ridden any of the newer ones

 

[AHicks]

ahicks on the rad bikes does the throttle not override that and scoot you across the street? I haven't ridden any of the newer ones

No, not on the '18 electronics I had anyway. When approaching a short steep hill, you really have to anticipate when you're going to need the power. Otherwise it just falls flat on it's face, acting for all the world like there is no power available....