Ebikemotion x35 speed limiter "fix"
- Thread starter Karl
- Start date
Hi Volabike, i just installed the tuner and it is a noticeable difference. Makes the transition much smoother >25kph. I used to connect my Garmin with the Ebikemotion, but no it constantly shows 15.8kph whether i ride or not. What is the reason for this and is this fixeable? I liked the connection w/ Garmin as i could see the batterylife of the Ebikemotion system. Thanks
PassoGavia
Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Roswell, Georgia
Speed Dongle Results - SCC Dongle
Background
I have a 2019 US-spec Orbea Gain M30i, with a maximum assisted speed of 20 mph. This is the original X35 system, not the newer X35+. I purchased an X35 tuning dongle from Sunshine Coast Carbon repair. Per their web site, “The dongle works on both USA and NZ restricted bikes. You can expect the same improvement as the 25kph models which is up to 17%”. Assuming best case, 17% against 20 MPH would result in a new speed cutoff of 23.4 mph.
Brief Summary Results
The dongle does enable power to continue past 20 mph, but full power doesn’t continue for long. I get full power from 20 mph to 21.0 mph, after which power drops quickly. At around 21.2-21.5 mph, only 60-70% of the expected power (based on the power level) is being provided by the controller. For example, at the 60% power level (orange level, out of the factory, for the Orbea) only 35-40% is being delivered. Above 21.5 MPH the power continues to drop and then level off, and fluctuates in the 10-15% range. Overall I’m very disappointed. It is clear that the motor can provide more power (see below for details) but there is some other parameter that the dongle is not compensating for. Instead of 17%, I’m getting a 5% increase, from 20 mph to 21 mph.
Detailed Results
Motor and Controller and how the dongle should work
Like all X35 systems, the Gain has the controller and the battery mounted in the down tube, and the motor in the rear hub. All components of the system communicate to each other using the CAN bus standard. There is a cable that exits the hub motor and is connected near the back of the left chain stay to a cable that is routed inside the frame to the controller. This cable supports communications between the motor and the controller, and also carries the current that powers the motor.
One of the parameters that the hub transmits to the motor is speed. More accurately, it transmits the number of rotations per second, which the controller then uses to calculate speed. The controller uses this to cut off the power to the motor when the speed exceeds the programmed threshold (20MPH in the US, 15.5 MPH in most other jurisdictions). Ideally, the dongle, inserted in-line, tricks the controller by reducing or fixing the speed sent to the controller.
The controller, as its name would imply, controls the voltage to the motor. The hub motor is a DC motor; an increase in voltage results in an increase in torque and (at a given load) speed. Although the eBikemotion app has a “power” reading, that number is really just the percentage of the total power available, so 100 is the max. The Green/Orange/Red levels of the X35 system dictate the max power provided per level.
Bench Test
I put the Gain on a bike stand to see the results of the dongle with zero resistance. To measure what the controller thinks the metrics are, I used the eBikemotion app on my iPhone. For speed, I used a Garmin detector connected to the rear wheel linked to a Garmin Edge 520.
The most obvious thing is that the eBikemotion app shows that the speed is 10.4 mph at all times. If the bike is sitting in the garage: 10.4 mph. If the bike is bombing down a steep hill: 10.4 mph. So at first glance it appears the dongle is doing the job.
With the bike in the air, when I start turning the pedals, the motor starts up immediately. With no resistance, the speed also ramps up quickly, even at the lowest (green) power level. So quickly, that I can’t tell exactly when the “new cutoff” occurs, or how it occurs (abrupt or ramp down). But it was clear that above 21 mph the power was significantly reduced.
Also, no matter how fast the rear wheel spun, the power never cut off completely. Above 25 mph, it hovered around 10%.
Road Test
For the road test, I attached my phone (running the eBikemotion app) and the Garmin 520 side-by-side on the handlebars. In this fashion, I could see the true speed (on the Garmin) and the power (% of available power) on the eBikemotion app. I rode 4 times with routes from 15-22 miles, three solo and one with a friend.
On the road, the bike feels normal at speeds under 20 mph. I supposed the start-up is a little different, since the controller thinks that the bike is already moving 10.4 mph, but it is not obvious enough to tell.
Above 20 mph, full power continues from 20 to 21.0 mph. It doesn’t matter which level (Green, Orange or Red) the bike is in. At around 21.2-21.5 mph, only 60-70% of the expected power (based on the displayed power level) is being provided by the controller. For example, at the 60% power level (orange level, out of the factory, for the Orbea) only 35-40% is being delivered. Above 21.5 MPH the power continues to drop and then level off, and fluctuates in the 10-15% range.
To be clear, the power never fully cuts off at any speed with the dongle. Hammering behind my friend at 27 mph on the flats, I was getting 10%-15% (and suffering greatly). Soft-pedaling down a steep hill at 35+ MPH, 10%-15%. And there was no change based on the Green/Orange/Red level; at 27 mph, I got 10-15% in Green, in Orange and in Red.
I should also note that all of the above was reflected in how the bike felt as I was riding. It feels good to blow through 20 mph, but then almost immediately you feel the drag of having to provide more leg power. It does seem that it helped me having some power, even if only 10%, at high speeds (every bit counts I suppose).
I also see faster battery depletion, which is to be expected given that as long as I’m pedaling, some power is being provided regardless of speed. Nothing dramatic, and of course it is highly dependent on the route and my pedaling style, but on a route where I would generally hit the 75% battery threshold at 12 miles, I hit that threshold at 10.5 miles.
Conclusions
This dongle is doing something, as power continues past the 20 mph threshold. It does trick the controller into thinking that the bike is going a slower speed (10.4 mph). However, there is still a power decline (not cut-off) starting at ~21 mph and then a leveling at 10-15%.
There is no doubt that the motor could provide more power about 21 mph. This is not a case of the motor “spinning out” or running into heat, hysteresis or eddy current losses. The controller, for some reason, is limiting the voltage provided to the motor.
My belief is that the motor is sending another metric to the controller, over the CAN bus communications, that the dongle is not intercepting. Most likely this is the RPM of the motor. And that the controller has a failsafe threshold to cut power when the motor exceeds that RPM.
Background
I have a 2019 US-spec Orbea Gain M30i, with a maximum assisted speed of 20 mph. This is the original X35 system, not the newer X35+. I purchased an X35 tuning dongle from Sunshine Coast Carbon repair. Per their web site, “The dongle works on both USA and NZ restricted bikes. You can expect the same improvement as the 25kph models which is up to 17%”. Assuming best case, 17% against 20 MPH would result in a new speed cutoff of 23.4 mph.
Brief Summary Results
The dongle does enable power to continue past 20 mph, but full power doesn’t continue for long. I get full power from 20 mph to 21.0 mph, after which power drops quickly. At around 21.2-21.5 mph, only 60-70% of the expected power (based on the power level) is being provided by the controller. For example, at the 60% power level (orange level, out of the factory, for the Orbea) only 35-40% is being delivered. Above 21.5 MPH the power continues to drop and then level off, and fluctuates in the 10-15% range. Overall I’m very disappointed. It is clear that the motor can provide more power (see below for details) but there is some other parameter that the dongle is not compensating for. Instead of 17%, I’m getting a 5% increase, from 20 mph to 21 mph.
Detailed Results
Motor and Controller and how the dongle should work
Like all X35 systems, the Gain has the controller and the battery mounted in the down tube, and the motor in the rear hub. All components of the system communicate to each other using the CAN bus standard. There is a cable that exits the hub motor and is connected near the back of the left chain stay to a cable that is routed inside the frame to the controller. This cable supports communications between the motor and the controller, and also carries the current that powers the motor.
One of the parameters that the hub transmits to the motor is speed. More accurately, it transmits the number of rotations per second, which the controller then uses to calculate speed. The controller uses this to cut off the power to the motor when the speed exceeds the programmed threshold (20MPH in the US, 15.5 MPH in most other jurisdictions). Ideally, the dongle, inserted in-line, tricks the controller by reducing or fixing the speed sent to the controller.
The controller, as its name would imply, controls the voltage to the motor. The hub motor is a DC motor; an increase in voltage results in an increase in torque and (at a given load) speed. Although the eBikemotion app has a “power” reading, that number is really just the percentage of the total power available, so 100 is the max. The Green/Orange/Red levels of the X35 system dictate the max power provided per level.
Bench Test
I put the Gain on a bike stand to see the results of the dongle with zero resistance. To measure what the controller thinks the metrics are, I used the eBikemotion app on my iPhone. For speed, I used a Garmin detector connected to the rear wheel linked to a Garmin Edge 520.
The most obvious thing is that the eBikemotion app shows that the speed is 10.4 mph at all times. If the bike is sitting in the garage: 10.4 mph. If the bike is bombing down a steep hill: 10.4 mph. So at first glance it appears the dongle is doing the job.
With the bike in the air, when I start turning the pedals, the motor starts up immediately. With no resistance, the speed also ramps up quickly, even at the lowest (green) power level. So quickly, that I can’t tell exactly when the “new cutoff” occurs, or how it occurs (abrupt or ramp down). But it was clear that above 21 mph the power was significantly reduced.
Also, no matter how fast the rear wheel spun, the power never cut off completely. Above 25 mph, it hovered around 10%.
Road Test
For the road test, I attached my phone (running the eBikemotion app) and the Garmin 520 side-by-side on the handlebars. In this fashion, I could see the true speed (on the Garmin) and the power (% of available power) on the eBikemotion app. I rode 4 times with routes from 15-22 miles, three solo and one with a friend.
On the road, the bike feels normal at speeds under 20 mph. I supposed the start-up is a little different, since the controller thinks that the bike is already moving 10.4 mph, but it is not obvious enough to tell.
Above 20 mph, full power continues from 20 to 21.0 mph. It doesn’t matter which level (Green, Orange or Red) the bike is in. At around 21.2-21.5 mph, only 60-70% of the expected power (based on the displayed power level) is being provided by the controller. For example, at the 60% power level (orange level, out of the factory, for the Orbea) only 35-40% is being delivered. Above 21.5 MPH the power continues to drop and then level off, and fluctuates in the 10-15% range.
To be clear, the power never fully cuts off at any speed with the dongle. Hammering behind my friend at 27 mph on the flats, I was getting 10%-15% (and suffering greatly). Soft-pedaling down a steep hill at 35+ MPH, 10%-15%. And there was no change based on the Green/Orange/Red level; at 27 mph, I got 10-15% in Green, in Orange and in Red.
I should also note that all of the above was reflected in how the bike felt as I was riding. It feels good to blow through 20 mph, but then almost immediately you feel the drag of having to provide more leg power. It does seem that it helped me having some power, even if only 10%, at high speeds (every bit counts I suppose).
I also see faster battery depletion, which is to be expected given that as long as I’m pedaling, some power is being provided regardless of speed. Nothing dramatic, and of course it is highly dependent on the route and my pedaling style, but on a route where I would generally hit the 75% battery threshold at 12 miles, I hit that threshold at 10.5 miles.
Conclusions
This dongle is doing something, as power continues past the 20 mph threshold. It does trick the controller into thinking that the bike is going a slower speed (10.4 mph). However, there is still a power decline (not cut-off) starting at ~21 mph and then a leveling at 10-15%.
There is no doubt that the motor could provide more power about 21 mph. This is not a case of the motor “spinning out” or running into heat, hysteresis or eddy current losses. The controller, for some reason, is limiting the voltage provided to the motor.
My belief is that the motor is sending another metric to the controller, over the CAN bus communications, that the dongle is not intercepting. Most likely this is the RPM of the motor. And that the controller has a failsafe threshold to cut power when the motor exceeds that RPM.
No, that's the feature - this is the trick how to deceive control unit to get power above 25 km/h and reach higher speed.
It indicates ~15.8kph both in the Ebikemotion app and on Garmin. To use the Garmin, i haeve disconnected the ebike w/ my Garmin to have the right speed.
Is that the only thing the dongle does, or are there other modifications that are performed to the original signals?
Wouldn't it be possible to multiply the real speed data signal with a constant (e.g. 25 : 32 = 0.781 for 25km/h factory limit and desired speed 32km/h) to follow up the original power curves and switch the motor support off at the end? That seems better to me.
It's not possible to read speed with the GPS signal or speed sensor while e-bike is connected. If e-bike is disconnected, Garmin/Wahoo gets speed from the sensor or GPS (I think), but usefull e-bike battery level in % can't be displayed on the computer, what is a big disadvantage (using a phone in the pocket with eBikemotion app to see the battery level is not very practical).
Well that's not good. I'm still waiting for my tuner to arrive from Volabike, but I thought my Garmin 1030 would still read the actual speed. That's disappointing.
Try to ask at Garmin, I really don't understand, why e-bike speed owerrides speed sensor (if connected) or GPS speed, if not explicitely choosen for displaying from Speed variables. On my Wahoo there is no "LEV speed" option (i.e. e-bike speed), just general "Current Speed" option, while there are "LEV battery", "LEV range" and "LEV mode" options to be displayed for e-bike.
Ebikemotionuser
New Member
- Region
- Europe
Hi Thomas.
Thanks for.the information.
Some questions:
A: So let's say I start with a full range extender and a 59% charged main battery. So the range extender powers the bike. Does it do so untill it's totally empty and only the the internal battery starts to power the motor?
B: What happens if at the start of a ride, for example the range extender is at 60% and the internal battery at 40%?
C: Will the range extender ever charge the internal battery? If so, in which case?
D: How can we get to know the price of the three range extender models? And how to order?
Thanks
Thanks for.the information.
Some questions:
A: So let's say I start with a full range extender and a 59% charged main battery. So the range extender powers the bike. Does it do so untill it's totally empty and only the the internal battery starts to power the motor?
B: What happens if at the start of a ride, for example the range extender is at 60% and the internal battery at 40%?
C: Will the range extender ever charge the internal battery? If so, in which case?
D: How can we get to know the price of the three range extender models? And how to order?
Thanks
Volabike
New Member
- Region
- Europe
You can use the extender is all these cases. No mater how much charged is any battery.
Battery with more charge will be the battery used until both batteries gets equaled, and then they will work together.
The best way to use our extender is with both batteries fully charged since the beggining, so they will work together all the time. That will distribute the motor load on both batteries and that will make batteries work with less stress and will extend their lifes.
You can send us an email to [email protected] with your demand, of go to www.volabike.com website to make the order.
cj3209
Member
- Region
- USA
If I had known this, I would have purchased the Volabike extender rather than the eMotion extender but the eMotion extended is easier to attach to the bike, IMHO.
greenboy990
New Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
what is the weight of the batteries.
r1roman
Active Member
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Barcelona
Dinos si hay progresos en tu invento amigo,graciasEarly days, but significantly more speed does seem to be possible from the X35 motor (40+kmh). The solution is quite technical.
New video by CTX35H
photos.app.goo.gl
Currently working on a prototype that could be possible to productionize. Will not be answering any questions until closer to feasibility.
greenboy990
New Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
I have the gain M30 and it is a superb bike for the money.More than enough torq for the hills round my way.
I neglected to thank Lucky22 for his generous input. Regards, much appreciated. Would like to dig just a bit deeper, if possible, such as the type of terrain you ride on. I'm drawn to the Fazua due to a perceived advantage on climbs, especially above 10%. I have read that the X35 provides less assistance at slow speeds, whereas I would look for most assistance slowly crawling up steeper climbs. Secondly, are the ranges you are experiencing tied to the degree of detuning used (if any), and the respective speeds? Thanks in advance.
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