Ebikemotion x35 speed limiter "fix"

[Ed B]

It is an iPhone app. Power jumps all over the place (see the plot). I'd be curious to know how your's behaves. I just got a HR monitor chest strap but haven't tried it yet; hopefully tomorrow. Do you have significant motor rpm when you are pedaling in Level 0 and below the speed cut off?

Yes power assistance jumps around a lot... that's one reason why I was surprised the chart and GPX download didn't show anything... I put the bike on my Computrainer because I wanted to see how it felt etc.... I believe the main reason for the power jumpiness is that I'm right at the 20mph most of the time... the power on/off transition is smooth but you see the numbers in the app jumping all over the place (together with the RPMs going from 250 to 16 and back??). So the speed is fluctuating between the mid-19s and mid-20s causing the power to go on/off... on/off... And yeah... if I'm under 20mph and slow my cadence, the motor does all the work.

The trainer app likes high speed/high cadence, so I'd have to adjust a slope factor to get the wheel to slow down with significant power output. I wouldn't make too much of data from trainer sessions... the load is not what the wheel expects.

Also I'll have to try another HR monitor... maybe I will have better luck.

 

[tegnamo]

The motor doesn't have a torque sensor built in so how would it report rider power? Some estimation calculation?

 

[Ed B]

The motor doesn't have a torque sensor built in so how would it report rider power? Some estimation calculation?

Fair point... I guess its calculating assist output by the current going to the motor...

 

[MikeDee]

I tried my new Topeak HR chest strap today. After some trouble getting it to detect my heart rate, it worked well with the ebikemotion app and my Garmin. I tried getting the auto assist to work with limited results. I think it's related to the max heart rate you input. I don't think it should be your actual max heart rate because I couldn't get the auto assist to work. I lowered it and got it to work, but I still need to play with it. The app crashed a few times as well. Also, I had to quit the app because it wouldn't take the changes to the HR I input. If anyone else has any input getting the auto assist function to work, post something. I don't know what the "Override max HR" setting is all about. In fact, you can't change your max HR without selecting this, which is a little puzzling as I don't know where else I inputted my max HR. The manual is unclear.

 

[Ed B]

First Ride Thoughts –

Took the bike outside for the 1st time yesterday and came away a little pleased, a little disappointed, and a little perplexed!

The bike – an Orbea Gain M20i rides well… geometry feels good, handling is precise and while I didn’t push things too hard, I didn’t notice any of the flex that I’ve read about elsewhere.

Overall the ride was fast, coming in at 20.5 MPH for the 1st ride of the year on wet and sandy rolling hill roads for just over 1 hour…

But… the power boost was not exactly what I expected. The power cut off is smooth as others have reported, but I’d read that the EU model starts to fade out above 25kph where the US version seems to start to fade out at about 19.5mph (31.38 kph)... below its rated speed. So there’s a little less there than expected. The BIG surprise/disappointment was the lack of boost on moderate hills. Visions of flying up hills at 20mph aint gonna happen!

I struggled to get much above 14mph on a short 4% grade… only about 2mph faster than I’d go with a moderate effort on a normal weight road bike. That was a shock. Plus according to the ebikemotion app on my phone, the motor was only assisting to about the 75% level (when in the max power setting level 3). I tried spinning fast, I tried out of the saddle, but I rarely saw the boost go to 100%!? Could that be a torque issue? I’m not sure how to get full power out of the motor.

Additionally, according to my other app (which was just recording with GPS) the ebikemotion speed sensor was reading about 0.5mph fast exacerbating the speed cut off issue. I will email them on that once I collect more data with a real speed sensor. Where the bike seems to excel is on false flats when I’d have a tendency to slow down… in those situations I sensed I was getting about a 3mph+ boost.

I’ve maybe been spoiled by the 500** (I misstated this earlier) Bafang on my almost 80lb Class 3 cruiser… that thing can kick with a max rating of 70nM of torque. Nevertheless, the Orbea on paper has more W/KG than the cruiser SO WHY does it go up hills slower??

Any thoughts on how to get the max power out of the ebikemotion setup would be appreciated. - E

** 500W vs 750w - their newest bikes are 750, but mine is 500w

 

[MikeDee]

First Ride Thoughts –

Took the bike outside for the 1st time yesterday and came away a little pleased, a little disappointed, and a little perplexed!

The bike – an Orbea Gain M20i rides well… geometry feels good, handling is precise and while I didn’t push things too hard, I didn’t notice any of the flex that I’ve read about elsewhere.

Overall the ride was fast, coming in at 20.5 MPH for the 1st ride of the year on wet and sandy rolling hill roads for just over 1 hour…

But… the power boost was not exactly what I expected. The power cut off is smooth as others have reported, but I’d read that the EU model starts to fade out above 25kph where the US version seems to start to fade out at about 19.5mph (31.38 kph)... below its rated speed. So there’s a little less there than expected. The BIG surprise/disappointment was the lack of boost on moderate hills. Visions of flying up hills at 20mph aint gonna happen!

I struggled to get much above 14mph on a short 4% grade… only about 2mph faster than I’d go with a moderate effort on a normal weight road bike. That was a shock. Plus according to the ebikemotion app on my phone, the motor was only assisting to about the 75% level (when in the max power setting level 3). I tried spinning fast, I tried out of the saddle, but I rarely saw the boost go to 100%!? Could that be a torque issue? I’m not sure how to get full power out of the motor.

Additionally, according to my other app (which was just recording with GPS) the ebikemotion speed sensor was reading about 0.5mph fast exacerbating the speed cut off issue. I will email them on that once I collect more data with a real speed sensor. Where the bike seems to excel is on false flats when I’d have a tendency to slow down… in those situations I sensed I was getting about a 3mph+ boost.

I’ve maybe been spoiled by the 750 Bafang on my almost 80lb Class 3 cruiser… that thing can kick with a max rating of 70nM of torque. Nevertheless, the Orbea on paper has more W/KG than the cruiser SO WHY does it go up hills slower??

Any thoughts on how to get the max power out of the ebikemotion setup would be appreciated. - E

I think the speed you see on the app is pure GPS, not from a sensor in the motor. As such, it's a bit prone to error/fluctuation.

I found I rarely use the high power setting. Getting the battery to last is more important to me.

I have a Garmin 810 with a cadence/speed sensor and the cutoff speed is just over 20 mph.

Did you check the motor maps in the app to see if you are at 100% power?

 

[Jaxx]

I'm in UK so only up to 15.6mph. I think the emotion hub likes torque? I am climbing 2-3 gears higher, even in eco, I have no problem maxing in at 15mph on climbs that would have had me down to 8-9mph. I've lowered the output setting down to 75% on eco.

 

[MikeDee]

In level 3, I see 100% power in the app, subject to fluctuation. I think I've given up on auto assist. Can't get it to work reliably.

 

[Jaxx]

In level 3, I see 100% power in the app, subject to fluctuation. I think I've given up on auto assist. Can't get it to work reliably.

Auto assist Mike, is that where additional power ask, is controlled by your heart rate?

 

[MikeDee]

Auto assist Mike, is that where additional power ask, is controlled by your heart rate?

Yes

 

[Ed B]

Did you check the motor maps in the app to see if you are at 100% power?

Yes - I checked and the app is set to 100% power at each level... I believe that's the default because I had not changed it.

I just went back and found old data recorded with my cruiser and yep... the cruiser is substantially faster!

I remain confused because the ebikemotion x35 is rated for 40nm of torque vs my Bafang which is rated at 70nm. Yet the Bafang bike weighs 2.7 times what the Orbea weighs. The power rating is similar too... 250w for the ebikemotion vs 500w for the Bafang. Hence the Orbea should be faster... right?


Also does it seem 'normal' for the RPMs recorded in the ebikemotion app (and exported as cadence in the Strava compatible gpx file) jumps between 16 and 250?

My file looks like this:
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
0
0
0
0
250
250
250
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16


I'm not sure what this data is... It can't be wheel RPM. And it clearly cant be cadence. I'm just not sure if its a sign that something is wrong with the sensor configuration?

 

[MikeDee]

Yes - I checked and the app is set to 100% power at each level... I believe that's the default because I had not changed it.

I just went back and found old data recorded with my cruiser and yep... the cruiser is substantially faster!

I remain confused because the ebikemotion x35 is rated for 40nm of torque vs my Bafang which is rated at 70nm. Yet the Bafang bike weighs 2.7 times what the Orbea weighs. The power rating is similar too... 250w for the ebikemotion vs 500w for the Bafang. Hence the Orbea should be faster... right?


Also does it seem 'normal' for the RPMs recorded in the ebikemotion app (and exported as cadence in the Strava compatible gpx file) jumps between 16 and 250?

My file looks like this:
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
250
0
0
0
0
250
250
250
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16


I'm not sure what this data is... It can't be wheel RPM. And it clearly cant be cadence. I'm just not sure if its a sign that something is wrong with the sensor configuration?

It's motor rpm. Looks like mine

 

[Ed B]

It's wheel rpm. Looks like mine

OK good to know thanks for the feedback!

 

[Off road all day]

There is a reason for the limiter, i have a cheap Chinese setup, no limiter. 50 kph (30 mph) with lite peddling no problem. on the other hand i have a torn up knee and a bunch of wasted rims.
For some reason you cannot see potholes as well on a bike as you can in a car, lower or higher to the road maybe? not sure.
Unless your going to race it stick with what you have Karl

 

[r1roman]

hi, I have orbea gain d-10 from a year ago and say I'm very happy with it, my app settings, 57% eco, 65% trail and turbo 80% power and I have a medium high physical shape , 70kg of weight and about 2000mts of accumulated altitude for about 120 km, with averages of 23 km / h, true that when cutting at 25km / h in plane it costs to move due to the weight of the bike compared to 7 or 8 kg as I have also but it is another concept of cycling, the ebikes in my opinion allow you to make long and hard routes without having to leave the skin on it, to see if any one finds how to limit even this will increase consumption and lower autonomy .

 

[Ed B]

To further look into the capabilities of the ebikemotion X35 system I ran a ramp test with the Orbea Gain M20i. The results are encouraging. The ramp test increases the wattage (i.e. required resistance) by 20 watts every minute starting around 100w. This was done on Zwift with a calibrated Computrainer with the X35 on Level 3 (100% power).

I maxed out at 560 watts for 1 minute. I could have kept going, but was concerned about the friction on the tire... and the Computrainer was starting to smell hot (it did get hot after putting out 400W+ of resistance for over 9 minutes!) The motor hub barely got warm.

You can see by the graph that I basically didn't do any work except spin the cranks until about 300Ws. 300-400w was easy, above 400W I started to sweat a bit. I definitely had to work once I got above 500W total output, but was not 'all out' despite the implication that I was doing about 330Ws at the end.

The X35 theoretically peaked at 330Ws (data in the chart below is smoothed over 30 seconds) and I theoretically peaked around 360W because as you can see once the X35 maxed out it struggled a bit to hold that power. The app screen indicated that I was fluctuating between 90 - 100% power from the motor. Perhaps its my poor cadence, or maybe the X35 sensor is a bit too sensitive!

At 500W+ I should easily be able to get this 27lb bike up a 4% grade slope at 17mph... which is my goal, but per my earlier post, I haven't achieved that yet. Mostly because I couldn't get the motor to hold at 100%!

Maybe I gotta be smoother! - E

 

[Ed B]

Well finally got the elusive PR on the 4% hill I've been talking about. While I didn't record with the ebikemotion app, I had it running and know I was close to 100% at Level 3. My app shows average power of only 400W with a peak over 500w and an average speed of 18.6mph. I only took off 1 second from my prior record from several years ago... and am still about 15 seconds (or almost 4mph) off the KOM! (And that prior PR was with a group and a tow into the bottom of the hill vs yesterdays solo ride).

But feel that I'm figuring out the ebikemotion system. I rode the hill seated, grinding it out with high torque and low cadence (only about 68). Typically I spin fast because I've never been fast out of the saddle... I'd say I'm a low torque high rpm rider, but the ebikemotion X35 seems to like constant slow even pressure (even if my hamstrings don't!)

And I only used about 30% of the battery on a 30 mile ride on the Level 3 setting which is consistent with what others have reported. But it was once again a fairly fast ride with an average over 20mph so not too much power assist.

I hope other readers and potential buyers find this useful information! - E

 

[Stevef069]

Great! Thanks for that...

I have an Orbea Gain M20i on order in that same size and thats about the weight I expected... had to go with the shallower Mavic Aksium Elite wheels vs the Cosmic Pro Carbon's because according to the US distributor bikes with the Cosmics are not going to ship until late March. The Visions are a nice option.

PS I used to live in Burlingame and did the Trousdale Dr climb to Skyline all the time...

A little off topic but I placed a pre order for the GAIN M20i Limited edition in late August of 2018 and took delivery from the distributor in February of 2019. It was frustrating but totally worth the wait to get exactly what I wanted. I have only 250 miles or so ridden on the bike into late March due to a very cold Midwest winter but can say the ebikemotion hub motor feature provides just enough assist allowing for long and steep climbs to be done at a reasonable tempo pace without exhausting this 65+ year old cyclist. The LTD bike configuration that includes the 11sp Shimano Di2 shift system, Ultegra drive train, and the Cosmic Pro wheel set is a killer combination and at the price point Aria can't compete in terms of value for the $$$. Bianchi and Pinarello both offer outstanding e road bike options and have a dedicated following, I understand loyalty to these iconic brands, but still. I do all my riding solo and at a top end limit of 20 MPH I'm more than happy and if the goal is general fitness and the ability to do longer rides at a moderately faster pace then the GAIN does meet up with Orbea's marketing. I'll add how surprised I was at the bikes better than expected handling on fast descents and cornering where the lower center of gravity that comes with positioning of the battery and motor is confidence inspiring to go full out. Another thing worth mentioning is that standing on the pedals, though something I don't typically do when on an ascent, is so natural in feel that credit has to be given to the engineers and designers of the ebikemotion technology, it's genius. Be prepared for the purists and shamers, I've already heard the taunts. But then it's mostly the snobs and race kids of course but an age when most of my contemporaries got off the bike years ago for golf and such I'm still willing and able to hit the road.

 

[Jaxx]

Well finally got the elusive PR on the 4% hill I've been talking about. While I didn't record with the ebikemotion app, I had it running and know I was close to 100% at Level 3. My app shows average power of only 400W with a peak over 500w and an average speed of 18.6mph. I only took off 1 second from my prior record from several years ago... and am still about 15 seconds (or almost 4mph) off the KOM! (And that prior PR was with a group and a tow into the bottom of the hill vs yesterdays solo ride).

But feel that I'm figuring out the ebikemotion system. I rode the hill seated, grinding it out with high torque and low cadence (only about 68). Typically I spin fast because I've never been fast out of the saddle... I'd say I'm a low torque high rpm rider, but the ebikemotion X35 seems to like constant slow even pressure (even if my hamstrings don't!)

And I only used about 30% of the battery on a 30 mile ride on the Level 3 setting which is consistent with what others have reported. But it was once again a fairly fast ride with an average over 20mph so not too much power.

As I mentioned previously Ed? That's the conclusion I came too aslo. The Gain likes torque. As it happens, that's how I like to climb, push n grind. Having tried all ways of climbing, you need to use 1/2 years higher than you normally would. To get the best out of the hub motor. I love it.

 

[MH456]

Removing 10 magnets definitely does not allow the bike to go at twice the speed. In fact it removed the ability of the sensor to trigger the motor at all. The software algorithm must cleverly detect the correct gap between pulses from the magnets...

Hey PD123 - ever get anywhere with de-restricting the Orbea?