Cadence choices in ebiking

[Jeremy McCreary]

My own approach to pedaling seems pretty common here: Contribute what you can at relatively low assist level. Use more motor only as needed. Nothing magic about this choice, just the way some like to ride.

Question: If that's you, I'd like to hear how you handle cadence on the ebike you ride most. Not talking controllers, sensors, or computers here — just the crank RPM range you actually ride. Also where and why.

I'll go first: Just a 70-something casual rider with bum knees working up to hilly 50-mile rides after a long cycling hiatus. Ride a 500W rear hub-drive 9-speed with 31- to 95-inch gearing.

On flattish terrain, I find myself gravitating to a freely chosen cadence (FCC) of 80±5 RPM.

Typical RideWithGPS recording. Full metrics at bottom.

This FCC isn't a conscious choice. Seems mostly comfort-driven — primarily by my finnicky knees.* Speed's generally acceptable at PAS 1/9, and muscles and cardiovascular system are willing to play along on all but the steepest hills. So I just make it happen — first with gear changes, then PAS. Most hills have little impact. The larger dips in cadence just pull my average cadence down that much more.

* The science on cadence is full of conflicting guidance for casual riders. I just do what my knees tell me to buy more years in the saddle.

 

[m@Robertson]

Out of curiosity, what are you using for a cadence sensor? I haven't had one since the 1990's as part of an old-school cyclocomputer and I miss it. I haven't put one on because the cyclocomputer of old is the ebike display now in the present day and I don't want to stick another screen on the bars.

 

[bobf]

I don't keep good records like yours, but from observing cadence in my display, I do about the same as you. The sweet spot seems to be in the low 80s, and I rarely go above 95. Years ago I read an intro to cycling book that suggested 65 to 75, but I find I prefer a bit faster than that.

Standing up is different. For that I'm usually at 60 or below.

 

[fooferdoggie]

80 is good thats where I like to keep it. the higher the better but it takes a lot of getting used too. the faster you can peddle the more effort you can put into it. it feels far harder for me to put out 450 watts at 40 rpms then 80 rpms. plus it gets your heart rate up better. after awhile you get a feel for it.

 

[PSm]

Same here, seem to migrate toward 80 rpm average, even on my SS e-bike. Same on my indoor spin bike. Totally different for me though climbing hills, and will get down below 40 or even 30 RPM or less, muscling up hills with a SS. And on the other end, will sometimes get up to 120+ RPM (with a SS).

My favorite podcast about cadence is this one:

Ep71: Cadence | Performance Cycling Podcast

Does your cadence matter? Today, Todd and Jason explore a few studies regarding cadence and look to decide on their optimal cadence for performance. CORE STRENGTH PROTOCOL ARTICLE - JOIN OUR RESEARCH Show Notes:Efficiency in cycling: A reviewCadence and performance in elite cyclistsInteractions...

hammondcycling.podbean.com

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Out of curiosity, what are you using for a cadence sensor? I haven't had one since the 1990's as part of an old-school cyclocomputer and I miss it. I haven't put one on because the cyclocomputer of old is the ebike display now in the present day and I don't want to stick another screen on the bars.

The $20 crank sensor below, monitored/recorded via Bluetooth with RideWithGPS running on an Android phone on my bars.

Copy that on bar real estate. Were it not for RideWithGPS route, grade, and cadence info — thanks, @Stefan Mikes — the only screen on my bars would be the bike's display. Not buyin' a separate bike computer.

Started monitoring cadence just out of curiosity — first, cuz I wanted to see how much it had decayed since my more serious cycling days back in the Late Bronze Age. Turns out, less than expected. Then wanted to see how my cadence patterns lined up with the chapter on human power generation in Wilson's Bicycling Science. Now use it to keep from getting into too much of a cadence rut.

 

[Roamers]

I didn't ride for 4 or 5 years, got ebike and started riding again. Working my way back to 90 rpm because it is easier on tbe knees. This summer I've been pretty consistent with 85ish. Added a Wahoo sensor and keep cadence and heart rate on my phone app.

 

[mschwett]

I’m a bit more of a grinder than a spinner, targeting around 80 RPM. I find that when I try and spin faster I do so in a slightly-too-low gear, resulting in much less power.

I have power, cadence, speed, heart rate, etc data for every (purposeful) ride I’ve taken in the last 2 years or so.

Here‘s the average cadence of every ride over time. Of course, including stops and starts and coasting lowers the average.

data for a steady effort (in this case a climb) on one ride shows the 80ish cruise.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Same here, seem to migrate toward 80 rpm average, even on my SS e-bike. Same on my indoor spin bike. Totally different for me though climbing hills, and will get down below 40 or even 30 RPM or less, muscling up hills with a SS. And on the other end, will sometimes get up to 120+ RPM (with a SS).

My favorite podcast about cadence is this one:

Ep71: Cadence | Performance Cycling Podcast

Does your cadence matter? Today, Todd and Jason explore a few studies regarding cadence and look to decide on their optimal cadence for performance. CORE STRENGTH PROTOCOL ARTICLE - JOIN OUR RESEARCH Show Notes:Efficiency in cycling: A reviewCadence and performance in elite cyclistsInteractions...

hammondcycling.podbean.com

Yikes, if I tried to grind uphill at 40 RPM, my knees would walk off the job!

Great podcast with some pretty solid take-aways for elite cyclists in high-effort rides of shorter duration. Their sources agree with mine that max metabolic efficiency usually comes at ~60 RPM, whereas most riders, elite or casual, self-select 80-90 RPM. That's usually above max-power cadence as well.

Sustainability and fatigue avoidance got little mention. When I run at 90 RPM for a while just to build some cadence flexibility, my legs tire out a lot faster.

It's good to be a geezer with an ebike: Don't have to worry about max efficiency or max power. My knees are happy at reasonable cadences, and my next Tour de France is a long way off.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Jeremy,
My medical condition is the inadequate blood supply to my legs combined with blood overpressure (taking a betablocker). This makes my leg power output limited and rather constant. Now, one can use their leg power for either spinning at low torque (good for knees, heart, the motor and the bike chain) or grinding at higher torque. Whatever it is, my "natural cadence" (which you call the FCC) is just 77 rpm. I think the "natural cadence" is what the body suggests for the maximum efficiency of a given individual. (It is only my guess, nothing scientific).

As I understand the value of higher cadence, I have been forcing myself to pedal faster since I started riding e-bikes. In the warm season (wearing lightweight clothes) and especially on the group rides, I'm trying to pedal at 80-85 rpm. Winter and heavy clothes? There, I'm just trying to pedal over 70 rpm and my cadence display tells me I dangerously fall into the 60s.

Climbing any hill (with freeway overpasses being the daily routine), I downshift as much as to pedal at possibly highest cadence I can muster and maintain, which is 91. I can feel how my heart action tries to go up and how the prescription drug keeps my HR in check! Well, then I have to go to the next level of assistance. (Recently, I practice climbing overpasses with the assist of 0.9x with the mechanical motor power limited to 120 W peak -- I can see my own peak power at 287 W with the average leg power for the ride around 80 W).

The next point is what you and @mschwett pointed out: The average cadence is just... well... an average. None of us is a racing cyclist to pedal at constant cadence without coasting!

I'm glad to hear Jeremy you bought the cadence sensor. We Specialized riders (such as @mschwett or myself) have it easier as our e-bikes just transmit the rider's power and cadence to the display or bike computer or to smartphone.

 

[mschwett]

…The average cadence is just... well... an average. None of us is a racing cyclist to pedal at constant cadence without coasting!

on the contrary!! i refuse to coast unless i’m at risk of going dangerously fast!!! my heart likes a very steady effort, as few starts and stops as possible.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

on the contrary!! i refuse to coast unless i’m at risk of going dangerously fast!!! my heart likes a very steady effort, as few starts and stops as possible.

OK, then you are a born road cyclist! How come your last ride average cadence was just 70?

 

[mschwett]

OK, then you are a born road cyclist! How come your last ride average cadence was just 70?

lots of starts and full stops on an urban ride! and as noted i’m a bit more of a grinder than a spinner.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

My medical condition is the inadequate blood supply to my legs combined with blood overpressure (taking a betablocker). This makes my leg power output limited and rather constant....

I'm glad to hear Jeremy you bought the cadence sensor. We Specialized riders (such as @mschwett or myself) have it easier as our e-bikes just transmit the rider's power and cadence to the display or bike computer or to smartphone.

Reduced blood flow through the lower extremities greatly complicates the discussion of cadence. Yet even with that added layer, your FCC still comes out close to 80 RPM. Interesting!

Would love to be able to monitor/record my power output at the crank — again, mostly out of curiosity. The physics of the power-speed-resistance relationship in cycling is fascinating. A power read-out would open a useful window onto what the motor and I are contributing under various resistances.

 

[mschwett]

…
Would love to be able to monitor/record my power output at the crank — again, mostly out of curiosity. The physics of the power-speed-resistance relationship in cycling is fascinating. A power read-out would open a useful window onto what the motor and I are contributing under various conditions.

the combination of heart rate with the above is also very interesting. in my case, somewhat limited cardiac output is caused by a very limited maximum heart rate. i select the gear which results in a consistent power output at a consistent cadence, and a consistent heart rate follows. all factors are fairly directly related: heart rate, power, speed, grade, cadence. heart rate being fixed in a range of 95-125bpm results in sustained power being relatively fixed in a range of 175-250w, comfortable cadence for me is between 60 and 90rpm, so the remaining variables are simply grade, which yields a single solution for speed with a given amount of drag/wind, assuming a gear is available which matches the target cadence

 

[Stefan Mikes]

lots of starts and full stops on an urban ride! and as noted i’m a bit more of a grinder than a spinner.

My Wahoo Roam is set to "Include zeros in averages? NO". I think full stops are excluded from your averages but spinning up to your normal cruising speed takes the effect on the average cadence.

Would love to be able to monitor/record my power output at the crank — again, mostly out of curiosity. The physics of the power-speed-resistance relationship in cycling is fascinating. A power read-out would open a useful window onto what the motor and I are contributing under various conditions.

The Lovelec Diadem, my Czech hub-drive motor e-bike could remain my single ride until this day if not...

My first e-bike was soon damaged by a careless friend of mine (he destroyed the derailleur and its hanger). While the e-bike had been waiting in the shop for the custom derailleur hanger for a month, I was researching e-bikes on the Internet. Viewed Court's EBR video of a 2017 Vado 5.0 and learned that e-bike could legally hit 45 km/h! Further study made me believe Specialized Vado could display plethora of e-bike information and broadcast it to Mission Control app on the smartphone. I got hooked! I'm a data man! By sheer chance, I found a bargain MY2017 Vado 5.0 in my size and bought it.

To my utmost disappointment, the aforesaid Vado had obsolete electronics and did not work with Mission Control! More, there was no power or cadence on the display! I had to wait for seven months (since Nov 2019) until Specialized produced and type approved the TCD-w display for the 45 km/h Euro Vado. Eventually, my Vado got upgraded on warranty and now I can enjoy all the data I need! (Vado SL bought in June 2021 had all the information broadcast by its TCU controller).

Interestingly, I owned a Giant e-MTB for a year, not being aware 2020 -> current Giant e-bikes also could broadcast the rider power and cadence (and other information) via the ANT+ LEV protocol!

 

[mschwett]

My Wahoo Roam is set to "Include zeros in averages? NO". I think full stops are excluded from your averages but spinning up to your normal cruising speed takes the effect on the average cadence.
…

strava calculates all those things in it’s own, so whatever wahoo is set to probably doesn’t matter. i’ve noticed some oddities about how it deals with pauses in the recording, so it’s hard to say really. i do know that the native phone apps, strava, sauce, goldencheetah, and veloviewer all return slightly difference numbers for averages, including power, speed and cadence!

for example, strava shows 70 RPM average for todays ride, but veloviewer (which gets the raw data from strava!) shows 72.

when the strava analysis graphs are viewed by time, not distance, some of the dumb things they do become clear.

where the ride was actually paused for a longer than-a-few-seconds stop, strava interpolates between the two adjacent values. depending on when your computer/app pauses and resumes the data collection, this can be pretty nonsensical when calculating averages since Strava comes to its own conclusions about how long a “stop” is.

 

[DaveMatthews]

I'm all over the place. Kinda depends on what I want out of the ride and how I'm feeling that day.
I like to think I'm at a higher cadence than I am. Reason being that I figure a consistently higher cadence (not too high) requires less output of the battery, and less torque/stress on the drive train (mid drive).
I should go check some stats...

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I'm all over the place. Kinda depends on what I want out of the ride and how I'm feeling that day.

According to most of my sources, developing some flexibility in cadence is a good thing. Wish my knees were happier at 60 RPM. At higher total resistances, the complaints start getting loud at 70 RPM.

...I figure a consistently higher cadence (not too high) requires less output of the battery, and less torque/stress on the drive train (mid drive).

At constant delivered power at the rear axle, also applies to a lesser extent to a rear hub-drive.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

My cadence usually averages about 64-67. I adjust the gears and the assist to maintain a consistent cadence. You people spinning around at 75-80 must have better knees than I do. I don't want to overuse my hinges, because I have a theory that like all mechanisms, we only get a certain number of movements (opening and closing of the knee joint) before we wear them out. Just seems frantic at that rate, though I might spin like that if I'm trying to really book it.