Modeling a Creo 2 motor in a Vado SL 1: Effect on rider power and battery consumption

[Jeremy McCreary]

Thanks for the link! An apt tire comparion here would be the SLs with 38 mm tubeless Pathfinder Pros vs. the Creo 2 with the 47 mm version of the same tire.

As you can see from the following screenshots from the free detailed tire comparison at bicyclerollingresistance.com, the tires aren't all that different. Each 47 is a negligible 100 g heavier than a 38. The Crr of the 38 is 0.00689 at 36 psi, while the 47 tested 7% lower at 0.00641 at 31 psi.

These Crr values are respectively 38% and 28% larger than the Crr = 0.005 used for the graphs at the top of the thread. They would raise all bars in the graphs a bit, but the blue and red SL bars slightly more than the yellow Creo bars. None of the conclusions I drew from the original graphs would change.

 

[mschwett]

i keep forgetting that the creo is no longer a road bike, kind of wild that it comes with those tires!! drop bars to go fast on pavement but tires to go slow lol.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

i keep forgetting that the creo is no longer a road bike, kind of wild that it comes with those tires!! drop bars to go fast on pavement but tires to go slow lol.

The good news: If you actually ride the Creo 2 on the drops, the aerodynamic savings at 20 mph (8.9 m/s) cover the added tire losses over the road tires you cited.

See the External Power Losses section in the model screenshot below. RR, AR, and GR stand for rolling, air, and gravitational resistance, resp.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

drop bars to go fast on pavement but tires to go slow lol.

Creo 2 is a gravel e-bike. You don't ride gravel on 28 mm tyres.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Creo 2 is a gravel e-bike. You don't ride gravel on 28 mm tyres.

Specialized's own promo video for the Creo 2 shows it functioning as a road bike most of the time. No law says you have to set it up as a gravel bike.

 

[mschwett]

Specialized's own promo video for the Creo 2 shows it functioning as a road bike most of the time. No law says you have to set it up as a gravel bike.

specialized themselves seem a little confused about this, they list it as a road bike. but then they say you can’t use tires smaller than 38mm on it, and market it heavily towards gravel. of course lots of people are using road-size tires and it works just fine.

a lot of creo owners are/were upset about the direction of the creo 2, but time will tell if it’s a success, and if specialized chooses to come out with an actual road version. there is lots of overlap in the categories but dropper posts and knobby tires aren’t useful features for road bikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Dropper post, big tyres (from 38 mm up to 55 mm), gravel specific drivetrain, flared handlebars, multiple bosses for equipment as well as the relaxed geometry are the defining features of a gravel bike.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Dropper post, big tyres (from 38 mm up to 55 mm), gravel specific drivetrain, flared handlebars, multiple bosses for equipment as well as the relaxed geometry are the defining features of a gravel bike.

Would the Creo 2 qualify as an all-road bike?

After footage first on pavement and then on dirt, the promo video below ends dramatically on "It's not about having to choose. It's about having it all."

In my book, there's a lot to be said for a bike that does both well enough to please all but the purists.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Jeremy, I recommend you explore the features and geometry of the following Specialized bikes:

• Tarmac (racing road bike)
• Roubaix (endurance racing road bike)
• Crux (cyclocross bike)
• Diverge (gravel bike)

and then draw the conclusions yourself.

Diverge

Creo 2

Gravel cycling (sport) involves gravel, off-road but also asphalt. You do not expect a gravel bike be as fast on asphalt as a racing road bike but a gravel bike will be lightning fast on unpaved roads (where a road bike might simply lose its delicate wheels).

The major difference between the sports of road and gravel racing is the peloton vs an individual/group. In the peloton, the rider is a part of a team that fits the peloton as if it were a part of a well oiled machine. The road racing bike is extremely lightweight and aero, and is equipped with narrow tyres. The cassette is made in 1-tooth steps so every peloton member can pedal at an ideal cadence and exactly the same speed. Some riders still use V-brakes as you are not expected to stop during the race but need low weight. The geometry is aggressive: you need the speed but no need for maneuvers.

In a gravel race you either ride as an individual (SOLO) or in a loose group. Being self supported is the keyword, hence multiple bosses for bags and water bottles (have you ever seen a road racing bike with water bottles attached to each side of the fork?) Flared drop bars and relaxed geometry help maneuvering in rough terrain. The drivetrain is of MTB type but using the drop bar brake/shifter levers. The dropper seat-post is to facilitate descents on singletracks. Wide tyres allow massive cushioning of road vibration, allowing the racer riding fast. It is always hydraulic disk brakes.

Take a road racing bike, throw 33 mm tyres in and you get "all road bike" but it is not a gravel bike.
––––
Many years ago, my band was participating in a contest. An amateur juror asked my mate: "What is it this small guitar shaped instrument you play?" – "It is a mandolin, Ma'am" – "Strange. Couldn't this instrument be named otherwise?" – "It is a mandolin, Ma'am. It was named this way a long time ago. There is no need to invent new names for something that has already been named".

If you reduce the number of strings on a 12-string guitar to eight and re-tune, it will not become a mandolin.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Jeremy, I recommend you explore the features and geometry of the following Specialized bikes:

• Tarmac (racing road bike)
• Roubaix (endurance racing road bike)
• Crux (cyclocross bike)
• Diverge (gravel bike)

and then draw the conclusions yourself.

View attachment 191983
Diverge
View attachment 191984
Creo 2

Gravel cycling (sport) involves gravel, off-road but also asphalt. You do not expect a gravel bike be as fast on asphalt as a racing road bike but a gravel bike will be lightning fast on unpaved roads (where a road bike might simply lose its delicate wheels).

The major difference between the sports of road and gravel racing is the peloton vs an individual/group. In the peloton, the rider is a part of a team that fits the peloton as if it were a part of a well oiled machine. The road racing bike is extremely lightweight and aero, and is equipped with narrow tyres. The cassette is made in 1-tooth steps so every peloton member can pedal at an ideal cadence and exactly the same speed. Some riders still use V-brakes as you are not expected to stop during the race but need low weight. The geometry is aggressive: you need the speed but no need for maneuvers.

In a gravel race you either ride as an individual (SOLO) or in a loose group. Being self supported is the keyword, hence multiple bosses for bags and water bottles (have you ever seen a road racing bike with water bottles attached to each side of the fork?) Flared drop bars and relaxed geometry help maneuvering in rough terrain. The drivetrain is of MTB type but using the drop bar brake/shifter levers. The dropper seat-post is to facilitate descents on singletracks. Wide tyres allow massive cushioning of road vibration, allowing the racer riding fast.

Take a road racing bike, throw 33 mm tyres in and you get "all road bike" but it is not a gravel bike.
––––
Many years ago, my band was participating in a contest. An amateur juror asked my mate: "What is it this small guitar shaped instrument you play?" – "It is a mandolin, Ma'am" – "Strange. Couldn't this instrument be named otherwise?" – "It is a mandolin, Ma'am. It was named this way a long time ago. There is no need to invent new names for something that has already be named".

All good points, and I learned some interesting things about bike racing. But most of us aren't racers or purists. A versatile bike like the Creo 2 makes a lot of sense to me — as it clearly did to its designers.

Every sport and hobby has its purists — even adult LEGO. They can be as pure as they want — as long as they don't expect me to follow their made-up rules.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

All good points, and I learned some interesting things about bike racing. But most of us aren't racers or purists. A versatile bike like the Creo 2 makes a lot of sense to me — as it clearly did to its designers.

I can only tell you several EBR members have spent a lot of money to convert their Creo 2 to a road bike. All they started with replacing the wheels, removing the dropper post and swapping it for a carbon fixed one, replacing the handlebars and possibly the drivetrain...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I need to say more. Pretending Creo 2 were a road bike makes as much sense as coming with a Jeep and pretending it were a Formula 1 car What purism? Both are cars, aren't they.

"A cow won't become a horse by standing next to a horse even for twenty years"

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I can only tell you several EBR members have spent a lot of money to convert their Creo 2 to a road bike. All they started with replacing the wheels, removing the dropper post and swapping it for a carbon fixed one, replacing the handlebars and possibly the drivetrain...

Their call, no one else's. Folks spend thousands on road bikes, then thousands more to turn them into "better" road bikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Their call, no one else's. Folks spend thousands on road bikes, then thousands more to turn them into "better" road bikes.

True. Yet nobody buys a gravel bike to make it a road racing one.
Please check these road e-bikes.

Creo 1 was a road e-bike. It didn't sell in the Specialized primary e-bike market (Europe) as the 25 km/h restriction made that e-bike a joke. Creo 1 EVO was an attempt to make a gravel e-bike based on the road Creo frameset. That attempt was an utter failure as you do not make a gravel bike from a road bike. For instance, the rear hub size was 12x148 mm (Road Boost), which was another joke as any gravel bike has it 12x142 mm. (It is related, for instance, to the choice of replacement wheels).

Specialized has decided to give up on road e-bikes and released the Creo 2, which meets the criteria of a gravel bike to the letter. While it is hard to justify a 25 km/h road e-bike in Europe, a 25 km/h gravel bike makes perfect sense on the Old Continent (especially as the European gravel cyclists ride in forests more frequently than on gravel). There are examples of two countries which are flat but where heavy winds dominate; and you often ride sandy or stony beaches: Denmark and the Netherlands. Yes, there are serious gravel races in these two countries!

Specialized has decided to give up making road e-bikes; Specialized has also decided not to make fitness e-bikes (does it ring a bell for you?)

How different the Creo 1 was compared to Creo 2! Of course, any road cyclist was overtaking me en route; I felt being laughed at.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

True. Yet nobody buys a gravel bike to make it a road racing one.
Please check these road e-bikes.

Creo 1 was a road e-bike. It didn't sell in the Specialized primary e-bike market (Europe) as the 25 km/h restriction made that e-bike a joke. Creo 1 EVO was an attempt to make a gravel e-bike based on the road Creo frameset. That attempt was an utter failure as you do not make a gravel bike from a road bike. For instance, the rear hub size was 12x148 mm (Road Boost), which was another joke as any gravel bike has it 12x142 mm. (It is related, for instance, to the choice of replacement wheels).

Specialized has decided to give up on road e-bikes and released the Creo 2, which meets the criteria of a gravel bike to the letter. While it is hard to justify a 25 km/h road e-bike in Europe, a 25 km/h gravel bike makes perfect sense on the Old Continent (especially as the European gravel cyclists ride in forests more frequently than on gravel). There are examples of two countries which are flat but where heavy winds dominate; and you often ride sandy or stony beaches: Denmark and the Netherlands. Yes, there are serious gravel races in these two countries!

Specialized has decided to give up making road e-bikes; Specialized has also decided not to make fitness e-bikes (does it ring a bell for you?)

View attachment 191989
How different the Creo 1 was compared to Creo 2! Of course, any road cyclist was overtaking me en route; I felt being laughed at.

Our disagreement comes down to this: You're assuming that everyone wants either a pure road bike or pure gravel bike with no interest in anything in between. Whereas I'm quite certain that there's plenty of interest in bikes that can do some of both — not to the Nth degree as the purists would have it, but reasonably well.

 

[Calcoaster]

Our disagreement comes down to this: You're assuming that everyone wants either a pure road bike or pure gravel bike with no interest in anything in between. Whereas I'm quite certain that there's plenty of interest in bikes that can do some of both — not to the Nth degree as the purists would have it, but reasonably well.

Well said.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Our disagreement comes down to this: You're assuming that everyone wants either a pure road bike or pure gravel bike with no interest in anything in between.

Jeremy, but that is true for any enthusiast rider! If someone as mschwett is a roadie by heart, they will never buy a gravel bike for the "road racing" role. If someone does "gravel cycling" there is no point in buying the tool unsuitable for the purpose. Many friends of mine own both type of bikes and consciously take the appropriate one for the specific type of ride.

Of course, a recreational cyclist can ride a Creo 2 on all types of roads, just for pleasure. And many do. I can even imagine installing a rear rack and doing grocery rides, why not? However, that does not change the fact Creo 2 has been designed as a gravel e-bike in its purest form

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If you disagree, Jeremy, let's talk about something you are familiar with: Vado SL. You will certainly agree Vado SL 1 has a fitness DNA. Yes, you can ride it in e-gravel races (as I and my mate Wojtek do). You can make leisure trips. You can do groceries. You can even commute with the SL 1.

Now, let us discuss Vado SL 2. Does Vado SL 2 have the "fitness DNA"?
Now think of the difference between Creo 1 and 2.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

If you disagree, Jeremy, let's talk about something you are familiar with: Vado SL. You will certainly agree Vado SL 1 has a fitness DNA. Yes, you can ride it in e-gravel races (as I and my mate Wojtek do). You can make leisure trips. You can do groceries. You can even commute with the SL 1.

Now, let us discuss Vado SL 2. Does Vado SL 2 have the "fitness DNA"?
Now think of the difference between Creo 1 and 2.

Agree with everything you said about the SL 1. Have never ridden any Creo, but having a hard time imagining — based on my SL 1 experience and everything I've seen about the Creos — that the Creo 2 can't serve as a fitness bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

that the Creo 2 can't serve as a fitness bike.

This is not what I said

Vado SL 1 has the "fitness bike DNA".
Vado SL 2 has the "commuter bike DNA".
Creo1 has the "road bike DNA".
Creo 2 has the "gravel bike DNA".

Any of these e-bikes was built for another purpose; of course you can ride a Creo 2 on paved roads or decrease the assistance on Vado SL 2 and ride for fitness. It is not the design purpose tho'