An Ebike that is as easy to pedal (when power is off) as a regular bike

[minigrrl]

I think e-assist may in a round-about-way be feeding some riders with false metrics if they have the assistance on all the time and/or at highest settings.

I'm actually going to move my Garmin Vectors onto my eBike because of exactly that! I need to see numerically that I'm actually still working hard. Because, obviously, I used to do all the hills and now I get help on some of them. Of course, I'm also going out every day now and for longer because I don't dread the hills anymore, so I'm hoping it all balances out.

I'm also using my eBike for errands and going out for dinner etc. which is something I'd never have done before. And even though I use a high assist level for most of those trips, it's a bit of exercise that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

 

[Luto]

I need to see numerically that I'm actually still working hard.

I am just going to guess, but without assist the hills are the same length but a longer time on the hill since you are going slower. So I notice there is definitely more effort all things being equal, at least for me.

 

[minigrrl]

I am just going to guess, but without assist the hills are the same length but a longer time on the hill since you are going slower. So I notice there is definitely more effort all things being equal, at least for me.

Oh definitely - I'm not expecting it to be the same. I'm just wanting to make sure my power output isn't majorly suffering because of the assist. Like making sure I'm not fooling myself...

 

[minigrrl]

And I 100% don't trust any of the numbers my Garmin Fenix is giving me about my eBike rides. It estimates power and I can't find out definitively if it just estimates that off heartrate or if it also uses GPS data like elevation etc.

 

[Dallant]

Oh definitely - I'm not expecting it to be the same. I'm just wanting to make sure my power output isn't majorly suffering because of the assist. Like making sure I'm not fooling myself...

I view my ebike as a form of spin class. My 27 mile workout rides are in much hillier (and usually windier) terrain than I would have been able to ride last May. I may not be pushing as much as I would without an ebike, but I’m doubling or tripling the time and thus my heart rate while still enjoying my rides. AND I’m doing this 3 times a week. And (in my late 60s) I’m not stressing my knees by keeping my cadence higher.
I’m wanting to upgrade to a Kiox vs the Purion I have now to show me ebike power vs my power.

 

[minigrrl]

I view my ebike as a form of spin class. My 27 mile workout rides are in much hillier (and usually windier) terrain than I would have been able to ride last May. I may not be pushing as much as I would without an ebike, but I’m doubling or tripling the time and thus my heart rate while still enjoying my rides. AND I’m doing this 3 times a week. And (in my late 60s) I’m not stressing my knees by keeping my cadence higher.
I’m wanting to upgrade to a Kiox vs the Purion I have now to show me ebike power vs my power.

Same here! Since I got my eBike I haven't done a single spin class... I was doing them regularly using the Peloton app and my Keiser spin bike. That's totally lost its appeal now. I guess I'll maybe do them again when it's too hot/cold/rainy? Or maybe I should just cancel subscription...

 

[Dallant]

Same here! Since I got my eBike I haven't done a single spin class... I was doing them regularly using the Peloton app and my Keiser spin bike. That's totally lost it's appeal now. I guess I'll maybe do them again when it's too hot/cold/rainy? Or maybe I should just cancel subscription...

We’re in the Midwest and waiting on a new VeloCore for the late autumn/winter/early spring. It’s the closest we could find to riding a bike. Hope we like it!

 

[minigrrl]

We’re in the Midwest and waiting on a new VeloCore for the late autumn/winter/early spring. It’s the closest we could find to riding a bike. Hope we like it!

That thing looks awesome! Have you tested on out in person? I wonder if you can stream the Peloton spin classes to it - they are pretty good.

Almost makes me miss spin class... Maybe I won't cancel the subscription just yet.

 

[Dallant]

That thing looks awesome! Have you tested on out in person? I wonder if you can stream the Peloton spin classes to it - they are pretty good.

Almost makes me miss spin class... Maybe I won't cancel the subscription just yet.

No, they are very new to the market and we just couldn’t find one to test. You have 60 days to return it for a full refund. It says you can do the Peloton classes in that video @ 1:21.

 

[Dallant]

The believe bowflex does not have a live interactive option

Yeah, neither the Peloton or live stuff were really important to us as long as it had workout classes specific to the VeloCore. I didn’t realize @minigrrl meant live classes.

 

[minigrrl]

Yeah, neither the Peloton or live stuff were really important to us as long as it had workout classes specific to the VeloCore. I didn’t realize @minigrrl meant live classes.

I didn't. I'm in Australia - have never done a live Peloton class, only the recorded ones.

 

[Dallant]

I didn't. I'm in Australia - have never done a live Peloton class, only the recorded ones.

Ok, well now I’m curious just how this Peloton app works with the VeloCore. Especially if they have training bike rides in different countries. My daughter has a NordicTrac S22i with classes where you follow an instructor on some scenic roads in a number of countries. What I like about hers is that it has auto incline that works with each training ride.

 

[minigrrl]

Yeah the Peloton has WiFi while the Bowflex does not have WiFi. That alone will tell you if the system is interactive or not.

And while some may find it fine to use their equipment like a single stationary trainer the major reason why and how Peloton became so popular is from their interactive interface.
Peloton pretty well took what Elite, Tacx and Wahoo were doing and made a stationary bike so people didn't have to go out and buy a road bike to use with those interactive trainers.

While the Bowflex looks kinda cool I think that tilting is just a gimmick. Live interactive trainers with real time pedal resistance that replicates hills and headwinds is still at the leading edge.

I like the non-live Peloton classes (I don't have the bike, just a Keiser spin bike). I use(d) my Apple TV or iPad to watch the classes. So not really any interaction with other people for me. I've always been a spin class junkie though. And having said that, if it had been possible to buy an actual Peloton bike before I bought my eBike, I totally would have got one. Don't think I will probably ever end up with one now, even if they do come here. Though, who knows, I am nothing if not fickle! Was obsessed with Peloton classes, now am obsessed with eBikes...

 

[minigrrl]

If you have the Peloton app you can pretty well use any spn bike or trainer. But you don't get some the metrics you would get on-screen from the Peloton bike.

Here's a vid

Exactly this. I got my metrics from the Keiser bike (plus my watch, etc.).

 

[Dallant]

Yeah the Peloton has WiFi while the Bowflex does not have WiFi. That alone will tell you if the system is interactive or not.

And while some may find it fine to use their equipment like a single stationary trainer the major reason why and how Peloton became so popular is from their interactive interface.
Peloton pretty well took what Elite, Tacx and Wahoo were doing and made a stationary bike so people didn't have to go out and buy a road bike to use with those interactive trainers.

While the Bowflex looks kinda cool I think that tilting is just a gimmick. Live interactive trainers with real time pedal resistance that replicates hills and headwinds is still at the leading edge.

It may be a gimmick but I hate riding trainers that are stuck in an upright position. I don’t ride that way and won’t bother with one that is.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Back on the topic. @MMC, @minigrrl, @Dallant: I hope we all mean "low powered mid-drive electrically assisted bicycle" when we say "e-bike", right? I think the biggest misconception about e-bikes/physical exercise is comparing the effort needed to ride over a defined route segment, that is, comparing the effort for the same distance and the same hills for e-bike and a regular bicycle. No doubt: with the same distance and elevation gain you'll be less tired on the e-bike. What most of people overlook is comparing the effort for the same ride time. Whatever you add to your ride in the form of electrical power manifests in far longer distance ridden and more elevation gained over the same ride time. (Effort is the same).

Examples from my own practice:

• My longest traditional bike ride (I was healthy at that time): 73 km/120 m elevation gain in 4.3 hours
• A typical e-bike ride with my brother: 101 km/500 m elevation gain in 4.0 hours
• My longest e-bike ride: 122.7 km/500 m elevation gain in 5 hours.

(The results for e-bike rides are for a man suffering from arteriosclerosis who can hardly walk; that's me).

• An experienced traditional cyclist @Jerzy Bańkowski : 121 km/140 m elevation gain in 6 hours 59 minutes.

So my friend needed two hours more to make 75 miles while riding a traditional bike. Of course, he got more workout on his ride because he had been riding for two hours more!

There is a factor making us think we get less exercise on the e-bike: limited battery range. An e-biker rides out, completes their 40 km ride in a short time (one-and-half hour?) and thinks his/her ride was effortless. Of course it was. So, the e-biker dramatically reduces the assistance (whenever doable) or rides without assistance or buys a Specialized SL e-bike "to get more workout". However, reducing assistance or switching the power off only means you get more tired over the same distance. While the whole idea is to ride farther (or, faster) and more frequently... Dammit! If I wanted to pedal unassisted, I would have bought Giant Trance (non-E) for half of the money!

Still disagree? If yes, you're giving e-bike haters solid ammunition

P.S. I was on a ride together with a female friend of mine on last Sunday. She was very proud of the fact she pedalled for 58 km off-road "without any assistance!" How could I say to her I would make as many as 88 km if I rode alone? But I had to reduce the assistance in my Giant Trance E+ to 75% Eco and spin at high cadence at 8 km/h at times to ride together with her and not abuse the fact my bike had the motor...

 

[minigrrl]

Back on the topic. @MMC, @minigrrl, @Dallant: I hope we all mean "low powered mid-drive electrically assisted bicycle" when we say "e-bike", right? I think the biggest misconception about e-bikes/physical exercise is comparing the effort needed to ride over a defined route segment, that is, comparing the effort for the same distance and the same hills for e-bike and a regular bicycle. No doubt: with the same distance and elevation gain you'll be less tired on the e-bike. What most of people overlook is comparing the effort for the same ride time. Whatever you add to your ride in the form of electrical power manifests in far longer distance ridden and more elevation gained over the same ride time. (Effort is the same).

Examples from my own practice:

• My longest traditional bike ride (I was healthy at that time): 73 km/120 m elevation gain in 4.3 hours
• A typical e-bike ride with my brother: 101 km/500 m elevation gain in 4.0 hours
• My longest e-bike ride: 122.7 km/500 m elevation gain in 5 hours.

(The results for e-bike rides are for a man suffering from arteriosclerosis who can hardly walk; that's me).

• An experienced traditional cyclist @Jerzy Bańkowski : 121 km/140 m elevation gain in 6 hours 59 minutes.

So my friend needed two hours more to make 75 miles while riding a traditional bike. Of course, he got more workout on his ride because he had been riding for two hours more!

There is a factor making us think we get less exercise on the e-bike: limited battery range. An e-biker rides out, completes their 40 km ride in a short time (one-and-half hour?) and thinks his/her ride was effortless. Of course it was. So, the e-biker dramatically reduces the assistance (whenever doable) or rides without assistance or buys a Specialized SL e-bike "to get more workout". However, reducing assistance or switching the power off only means you get more tired over the same distance. While the whole idea is to ride farther (or, faster) and more frequently... Dammit! If I wanted to pedal unassisted, I would have bought Giant Trance (non-E) for half of the money!

Still disagree? If yes, you're giving e-bike haters solid ammunition

P.S. I was on a ride together with a female friend of mine on last Sunday. She was very proud of the fact she pedalled for 58 km off-road "without any assistance!" How could I say to her I would make as many as 88 km if I rode alone? But I had to reduce the assistance in my Giant Trance E+ to 75% Eco and spin at high cadence at 8 km/h at times to ride together with her and not abuse the fact my bike had the motor...

I actually mean "low powered HUB or mid-drive electrically assisted bicycle", when I say eBike. (Mine is a 250w hub drive cadence sensor, no throttle as they are not legal in Australia with a 250w motor).

I mostly don't disagree with anything you are saying. (Though I'm not actually sure that it's on-topic either! ;-) )

I think the fact that my bike is a hub drive makes a difference in the way I ride it compared to how you might ride your mid-drive. My levels don't equate to rider power multiplication, rather each one has a speed at which it turns off. So my level 3 pushes me until I hit 16km/h and then it cuts out. My level 6 pushes me until I hit 25km/h before it cuts out. I don't particularly like to ride that fast on the bike paths where I exercise so I generally leave it at level 3 and mostly ride un-powered due to that cutout which is below my flat terrain "all me" cruising speed. I want to get my HR up through the zones on these rides and I want to sweat. I just don't want to sweat as much as I was before on the hills!

For me, the whole idea isn't to ride farther (or faster) - at least not always. I 100% agree with the more frequently part though - I've gone from going out 3 times a week on my analog bike to 6 or 7 days on my eBike. I can trick myself into going out for a workout by telling myself that if I don't feel up to it I can always use a higher level of power. Which I never do, it's totally psychological - it's the getting out there that is the hardest part! Once you're out it's all good.

I do like the fact that I can ride for longer, which, I will concede, essentially relates to farther. But definitely not really interested in going much faster (my times for the same distance when I'm doing an exercise ride are pretty close to what they were on the analog bike - maybe . I like trundling along at 19/20 km/h and watching the world go by.

I want the best of both worlds - I want to ride my eBike like an analog bike on the flat terrain, but I want it to help me on the horrible hills. I have to stress that it's not riding on the flat that tires me out (I think I'm from good peasant stock - meant to work in the fields for days without stopping! ha!), it's the hills that do me in.

I do sometimes want to be able to go father (faster) because I also want to be able to run errands quickly with the bike. As well as go on fun (i.e. non-exercise specific) rides with my partner who is not in nearly as good cycling shape as I am, and keep up with him, as he likes to go much faster on a much higher level of assist. In fact, the reason we got our first eBike was for him so he would actually go cycling with me on my analog bike. And we did go together a few times. But I couldn't handle the fact that he was blowing past me on the hills (and the flats for that matter) and I was huffing and puffing up them. So I took his bike out a few times by myself. I ordered one within a week of him getting his.

Ok that was kind of rambling, but I think we are essentially saying the same thing?

 

[minigrrl]

P.S. I was on a ride together with a female friend of mine on last Sunday. She was very proud of the fact she pedalled for 58 km off-road "without any assistance!" How could I say to her I would make as many as 88 km if I rode alone? But I had to reduce the assistance in my Giant Trance E+ to 75% Eco and spin at high cadence at 8 km/h at times to ride together with her and not abuse the fact my bike had the motor...

I think that is also one of the great things about eBikes - she could do 58km off road without any assistance and you could ride with her. I'm assuming you wouldn't have been able to ride with her if you didn't have the eBike... 58kms sounds like a fun ride with a friend. Why would 88 km have been better?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I think we are essentially saying the same thing?

Exactly!

I think that is also one of the great things about eBikes - she could do 58km off road without any assistance and you could ride with her. I'm assuming you wouldn't have been able to ride with her if you didn't have the eBike... 58kms sounds like a fun ride with a friend. Why would 88 km have been better?

I cannot ride trad bikes at all because of my ill legs. If I'm offered a traditional bike to try, I instantly end up in low gears even if the bike is extremely lightweight. 5 km on a trad bike means a terrible effort to me.

One of things that makes your and my e-bikes different is the motor type. The hub drive motor offers a constant assistance, so you are getting in equilibrium with the motor and typically ride at the maximum speed available for given PAS level. Mid-motor allows you riding fast or very slowly depending on the needs. Actually, my third e-bike is of hub-drive type and I use it for long and fast tours; or for commuting. That bike doesn't want to ride slowly! (It can be restricted to 25 km/h on demand, which I don't do as my favourite travelling speed is 29-30 km/h).

On the ride together with the friend, I made use of the mid-drive motor capability to ride really slowly. For instance, we both needed to follow slow hikers on a single-track. I could ride at 2 km/h because minimal torque from my legs, extremely slow pedalling and the granny-gear made it possible. The great thing about a good mid-drive motor is also possibility to adjust the assistance for given Level. When I go on a ride with traditional cyclists, I precisely tune the motor parameters to be on par with the riding partner. Which makes them happy but sometimes I go banana and stomp on my pedals hard and start spinning That makes my e-bike accelerate at improbable rate! (Friends certainly feel badly at such rare moments).

You have asked if 88 km felt better. Yes. That's why I lend one of my e-bikes to my brother and we had many fascinating rides together It is more fun to ride together with an e-biker! (It might to be of interest I sometimes let Jacek ride my Vado while I ride my hub-drive Lovelec; it feels honest, and both bikes are equal on long rides really).

On e-bike ride with another friend. Jagger -- a relatively young man -- really appreciated riding e-bike! Only two people (my brother and Jagger) dared to ride e-bikes together with me. Traditional cyclists when offered an e-bike ride typically refuse. They feel intimidated and babble something about "they don't need artificial support". I think they are afraid they might actually like e-bike too much...

 

[Luto]

Oh definitely - I'm not expecting it to be the same. I'm just wanting to make sure my power output isn't majorly suffering because of the assist. Like making sure I'm not fooling myself...

I wonder if heart rate is a great proxy. I think a lot of the benefit, day after day, is just getting the heart rate up and keeping it there for extended time. For instance, if your HR is up the same amount with or without assist for the same amount of time, it seems all things are pretty close to the same. It could be like riding in different gears. Overall the distance is the same, but you sure can change the exertion amounts. Fickle-ness aside