2023 Trek Domane+

[AntonioAlfaro]

Have never used power pedals, but I find it rather interesting that despite the watts being all over the place during my rides (both rider and system watts), when I return from a ride and look at the average watts displayed in the Trek Dashboard ride summary - the sum of the two figures (rider/system) is within a few watts of what Strava tells me was expended for the ride. Yesterday it was within ONE watt. Two completely different systems and ways of deriving the number. Strava uses the actual route with known elev gain, time, heart rate (for effort) and rider weight, to get to it's number. I don't think it knows much about localized wind conditions. Obviously the bike measures what the bike and I are actually putting in.

For them to be so close tells me the Trek number must be fairly accurate. There has only been one exception - on my first ride, Strava was low by 15 watts - but I had a very strong headwind without a compensating tailwind, and I also had not told Strava it was an e-bike ride.

The speed and range continue to impress, being at least as good as Trek estimates, but tuning through the app is still a crapshoot and I am never really sure why I get exactly what I do in the various modes, other than of course MAX contributes more than ECO or MID. Still figuring it out.

hello mtnroads
Thank you for your feedback, in fact the optimal adjustment of the assistance levels is a task that can be complicated if we do it by trial and error without following any methodology.
I've been cycling all my life, but I'm a little old now and also a cancer survivor.
Despite using an 8Kg BMC Roadmachine bicycle, I decided to incorporate an Ebike to be able to keep up with the young people that make up my cycling group.
For many years I have used pedals with power meters on both sides and I know very well what my FTP is.
When I bought my Orbe Gain D50 ebike I developed a methodology to optimally customize the assistance levels, that methodology is a very good approximation.
I have ordered a Domane+ SLR6 that I expect to receive in a couple of months, and my plan is to adapt and verify the methodology with Domane+ SLR.
Meanwhile I continue to feed on all the experiences that are reported in this forum and all the information available about Domane+ SRL.

 

[mschwett]

I had been assuming that "up to 4x you" meant the total (me + bike) was 4x, meaning the assist was actually 3x. Which would make the SL "2x" up to 50/50 rider/bike.

Do we know for sure of the 2x/4x number includes the rider or not?

we know for sure, it does not include the rider.

if you put down 100, at 100% of 2x it'll put down 200. specialized has explained it and many of us have tested it with power meters, mission control, etc.

 

[mtnroads]

Assuming you have the bike or bike "power meter" paired with your bike computer, Strava averages the actual broadcast wattage from the bike. You can easily see it if you examine the analysis graph. With an actual power meter, there are thousands of data points and high variability. So the wattage between Trek dashboard and Strava should be nearly identical. Strava only uses the virtual estimates if there is no power meter. If you look at the power graph on a ride without a power meter, the graph has far fewer data points and is significantly smoothed.

Nothing is linked, Strava doesnt talk to any of my bikes, nor my Elemnt Roam, which I use as a simple bke computer. Everything is standalone, which is why I found the close numbers interesting, and supportive of the argument that the Trek is fairly accurate.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

we know for sure, it does not include the rider.

if you put down 100, at 100% of 2x it'll put down 200. specialized has explained it and many of us have tested it with power meters, mission control, etc.

2x is for the electrical power delivered, or a marketing figure. It is 1.8x mechanically, so pedalling at 100 W provides 180 W of mechanical motor assistance. I know you know it @mschwett

The matter "up to 4x" is rather fuzzy. Some full power Specialized motors provide 3.2x assistance, some come up with 3.6x (mechanical). I believe the strongest new motors might approach 3.8x mechanical assistance. Anyway, providing the leg power of 100 W at 100/100% SL Turbo provides 100 + 180 = 280 W of mechanical power to the chainring, and there is no disagreement on that.

 

[mtnroads]

Antonio, I can't wait to hear how you like the Domane SLR. And if your tuning methodology unlocks any secrets

I forgot to mention earlier that one thing I really like about the new Domane+ SLR is it uses standard road bike wheels 12x100 and 12x142. I have an extra set of Roval carbon rims with 38mm Gravelking slicks that I bought for my Spec Diverge that should fit right on. And the 12 speed Di2 is compatible with 11 speed wheels. So they will work. The previous Domane+ LT with Fazua used a much less common 12x148 Boost wheel in the rear, and they were pricey.

 

[rdv]

hello mtnroads
Thank you for your feedback, in fact the optimal adjustment of the assistance levels is a task that can be complicated if we do it by trial and error without following any methodology.
I've been cycling all my life, but I'm a little old now and also a cancer survivor.
Despite using an 8Kg BMC Roadmachine bicycle, I decided to incorporate an Ebike to be able to keep up with the young people that make up my cycling group.
For many years I have used pedals with power meters on both sides and I know very well what my FTP is.
When I bought my Orbe Gain D50 ebike I developed a methodology to optimally customize the assistance levels, that methodology is a very good approximation.
I have ordered a Domane+ SLR6 that I expect to receive in a couple of months, and my plan is to adapt and verify the methodology with Domane+ SLR.
Meanwhile I continue to feed on all the experiences that are reported in this forum and all the information available about Domane+ SRL.

Can you share your assist methodology in the meanwhile? My attempts are turning out to be a crapshoot, despite attempts at 'rational'.
My main challenge is getting satisfactory support in both Eco and High, conditioned by my (cardio-vascularly limited) 100W power input (post #57). At 100W x 200%=200W of assist, I can't take advantage of the motor's 300W maximum, making High a moot choice. For yesterday's ride I tried to keep High active, with a meaningful boost by reducing Mid assist some, and Eco in turn. Finding Eco less than satisfactory, I changed the settings 10 miles into the ride, re-boosting Eco and Mid, and not relying on High except for bursts up short 10-12% grades.
Any insights from others would be welcome as well.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Anyone on this thread who rides a SLR+ have a problem with their chain falling off (front)?
I know two people who recently bought one and both are having problems with their chain falling off when going from the small to big ring in the front.
So far the bike shop hasn't been able to fix the problem. Both bikes are Di2 Ultegra.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Hello I am allowing myself to attach a first draft of a document that I have prepared to guide in the determination of the levels of assistance in an EBike. It is not a final document, as soon as I receive my Domane+ SLR6 I will finish field checking and correct it as necessary. I hope it's of your interest
I have also opened a new thread in this forum for discussions exclusively related to levels of assistance on an E Bike.

Methodology proposal to establish the assistance levels in an E Bike

Hello, allow me to share with you a first draft document that I have prepared to guide in the determination of the levels of assistance in an EBike. It is not a final document, as soon as I receive my Domane+ SLR6 I will finish field checking and correct it as necessary. If you cycle...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Deacon Blues]

What's weird is the bike shop can't seem to fix the problem.

 

[rdv]

Hello I am allowing myself to attach a first draft of a document that I have prepared to guide in the determination of the levels of assistance in an EBike. It is not a final document, as soon as I receive my Domane+ SLR6 I will finish field checking and correct it as necessary. I hope it's of your interest
I have also opened a new thread in this forum for discussions exclusively related to levels of assistance on an E Bike.

Methodology proposal to establish the assistance levels in an E Bike

Hello, allow me to share with you a first draft document that I have prepared to guide in the determination of the levels of assistance in an EBike. It is not a final document, as soon as I receive my Domane+ SLR6 I will finish field checking and correct it as necessary. If you cycle...

electricbikereview.com

Thanks for sharing your draft. Much appreciated.

The Trek App allows you to fine tune the motor output through 9 settings: Max Power, % Assist, and Pedal Response, for Eco, Mid and High. I'd be interested to see what tuning values you start out with when you first hit the road on your e-bike.

Given that pavement, weather, wind, cadence, speed, grade, nutrition, 'legs', mood, etc. fluctuate within and among rides your values may need broaden from those the workup suggests. For example, if motor assist were set at 142W max, then anything steeper than 11% would require a reduction in speed, eventually getting so slow as to undermine stability and steering control, whereas a higher max W would allow for higher speeds. And don't be surprised if the enjoyment factor starts kicking in, when you could keep putting in a solid effort, but what the heck, why not relax and enjoy the breezy tailwind feeling Eco provides.

So, I'd be interested not only in what tuning values you start out with, but what they are a week, month and 3 months later.

BTW, here's a cycling power calculator to possibly play around with.
https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Thanks for sharing your draft. Much appreciated.

The Trek App allows you to fine tune the motor output through 9 settings: Max Power, % Assist, and Pedal Response, for Eco, Mid and High. I'd be interested to see what tuning values you start out with when you first hit the road on your e-bike.

Given that pavement, weather, wind, cadence, speed, grade, nutrition, 'legs', mood, etc. fluctuate within and among rides your values may need broaden from those the workup suggests. For example, if motor assist were set at 142W max, then anything steeper than 11% would require a reduction in speed, eventually getting so slow as to undermine stability and steering control, whereas a higher max W would allow for higher speeds. And don't be surprised if the enjoyment factor starts kicking in, when you could keep putting in a solid effort, but what the heck, why not relax and enjoy the breezy tailwind feeling Eco provides.

So, I'd be interested not only in what tuning values you start out with, but what they are a week, month and 3 months later.

BTW, here's a cycling power calculator to possibly play around with.
https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

thanks rdv for your inputs,
You are correct, in the TQ system there are parameters for each level of assistance. In my proposal for estimating optimal levels of assistance, we only determined the value of power per level.
I started modeling this methodology with my Orbea Gain D50, which is a rear hub motor system. It does not have a power sensor, only cadence and the assistance power per level suddenly enters the defined value and not gradually. It is for this reason that once I get my Domane+ SLR6 I have to try and fine tune it a bit.
The input values for the other two parameters (Assistance and response) to start tests will be:

ECHO
Assist = 100%
Response = 60%
MID
Assist = 37%
Response = 75%
HIGH
Assist = 200%
response = 100%

Remember that the proposed use of the assistance levels is based on the slopes, that is, as long as your route is in the 0 to 3% slope range, you can move without assistance. From 3% to 7% you change the assistance to ECO level, 7% to 11% you change to MID level and so on to MAX level if you face more than 11%. Do not forget that you have to do your part as much as you can.

PD;
Please resend your post to my new thread in this forum for discussions exclusively related to levels of assistance on an E Bike.

Methodology proposal to establish the assistance levels in an E Bike

Hello, allow me to share with you a first draft document that I have prepared to guide in the determination of the levels of assistance in an EBike. It is not a final document, as soon as I receive my Domane+ SLR6 I will finish field checking and correct it as necessary. If you cycle...

electricbikereview.com

 

[rdv]

thanks rdv for your inputs,
You are correct, in the TQ system there are parameters for each level of assistance. In my proposal for estimating optimal levels of assistance, we only determined the value of power per level.
I started modeling this methodology with my Orbea Gain D50, which is a rear hub motor system. It does not have a power sensor, only cadence and the assistance power per level suddenly enters the defined value and not gradually. It is for this reason that once I get my Domane+ SLR6 I have to try and fine tune it a bit.
The input values for the other two parameters (Assistance and response) to start tests will be:

ECHO
Assist = 100%
Response = 60%
MID
Assist = 37%
Response = 75%
HIGH
Assist = 200%
response = 100%

Remember that the proposed use of the assistance levels is based on the slopes, that is, as long as your route is in the 0 to 3% slope range, you can move without assistance. From 3% to 7% you change the assistance to ECO level, 7% to 11% you change to MID level and so on to MAX level if you face more than 11%. Do not forget that you have to do your part as much as you can.

PD;
Please resend your post to my new thread in this forum for discussions exclusively related to levels of assistance on an E Bike.

Methodology proposal to establish the assistance levels in an E Bike

Hello, allow me to share with you a first draft document that I have prepared to guide in the determination of the levels of assistance in an EBike. It is not a final document, as soon as I receive my Domane+ SLR6 I will finish field checking and correct it as necessary. If you cycle...

electricbikereview.com

I'm not too handy with posts, so answering to post 82 here, then switching to the other thread. Feel free to move this if you can.

Your Assist levels of E 100%, M 137% (right?), H 200% are sensible. If understand correctly, however, when applied applied to 104W rider contribution, but rather than delivering the set %s, the motor is constrained by the respective maxima of 70W, 106W, and 142W. (e.g. 104W x 1.37 = 192W, but held to 106W maximum, in which case 102% would work just as well).

I had similar intentions regarding grade, Null for low or very short ascents, E up to 5%, M up to 10%, H above 10%. Of course it matters how long the climb is. I now go by how I feel on any one climb, but can only do 'my part' steadily up to 100W, which means that the most I can get from the motor is 200W at 200%. Above that the chest pain says no, except for some short bursts.

The Response in the Trek app ranges from Gradual to Quick (no %). While Quick is good for starting out, it drops support just as quick if you momentarily slow or pause your pedaling, leading to unpleasant uphill lurching. It took me less than a ride to move M and H from Quick all the way back down to Gradual. E works well midway.

 

[WillShootPhotos]

The lack of a system akin to the Specialized Future Shock would steer me away from this bike. I suppose I could add a Redshift stem (assuming it would fit), but that would likely add weight. I also believe the Creo offers better range, which for me translates to using more assist when needed (hey, I’m old and broken down ).

I also found it interesting that the review mentioned noticeable drag when riding without assist. That’s a subjective comment, so I’m not sure it would be worse than the Creo, but I’d certainly want a test ride to decide for myself. Is it possible that this drag is why it offers less range than the Creo?

Bottom line is that while this looks like a decent bike, and I’d love to try one out just for kicks, I don’t see any compelling reason to replace my Creo.

Interesting about the "noticeable drag" comment...

I've owned my Domane+ SLR7 (Ultegra 2x setup) for about a week now, have over 150 or so miles on it, and there isn't any "drag" that I've noticed.

You stop pedaling, the chain stops moving, you're on a regular bicycle rear wheel... the only resistance will be in the rear freehub body and it is the same one as is in any normal set of wheels - at least it sounds exactly like my Aeolus Pro 37 wheelset that came on my "regular" 2021 Domane SLR. I've been on several descents and the speeds have been the same (if not perhaps a *bit* faster, with the extra 8 lbs of "weight watts")

There is a curious sensation that does sort of "feel" like it might be drag when you stop pedaling - but that is just the removal of the power input, so you've lost that "hand on the small of your back (well, frame really)" feeling and you stop accelerating - but (per above) I'm at a complete loss as to how the motor could be adding any drag into the system when the cranks are not moving.

- Will

 

[Stefan Mikes]

but that is just the removal of the power input, so you've lost that "hand on the small of your back (well, frame really)" feeling and you stop accelerating

True words!

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Your Assist levels of E 100%, M 137% (right?), H 200% are sensible. If understand correctly, however, when applied applied to 104W rider contribution, but rather than delivering the set %s, the motor is constrained by the respective maxima of 70W, 106W, and 142W. (e.g. 104W x 1.37 = 192W, but held to 106W maximum, in which case 102% would work just as well).

My understanding of the constraints isn't from the % boost set, but to the max that is set. So, if I've a config at 50% and 100 W max boost, if I ride at 100W, I'll get a net of 150W (50% of my 100W input)... if I do 200W, still getting full boost of 100W to net 300W total; only when I get to say 400W input, I'll only get 25% back out because I've exceeded the max output of 100W.

So - on full beans of 200% - it'll depend on what the "max" is set for that profile - if it is 300, then you could get up to a total of 600W combined...

- Will

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Anyone on this thread who rides a SLR+ have a problem with their chain falling off (front)?
I know two people who recently bought one and both are having problems with their chain falling off when going from the small to big ring in the front.
So far the bike shop hasn't been able to fix the problem. Both bikes are Di2 Ultegra.

I've not had that problem, but I've only had the bike for about a week - just under 200 miles in so far. Not sure why there would be an inability to get the front derailleur dialed in appropriately. I've wrenched on bikes in bike shops over the years to support my habit, and haven't had an issue dialing a front der in.

There can be so many factors that contribute to a dropped chain, especially in rough terrain. But if the plate is parallel to the chainring, and the limits/settings are correct, there shouldn't be an issue... (famous last words)

The x-factor here may be the "non Shimano" front chainrings. The pins and lifts as well as the ramping to the teeth contributes greatly to the smoothness of the upshift. That said, I've been running a non "approved" combo on my "traditional" (sorry TREK - I refuse to call it an 'acoustic' bike! ) Domane SLR 7... I'm running a 52/34... it helps me with the long steep climbs here in the Vegas area, while also having the ability to not get spun out on the long 3% ish descents... but I digress. Shimano says to only use the 50/34 or 52/36 because of the aforementioned ramps/pins/profiles. I've only had very infrequent slight hesitations in my upshifts. I do have a 52 tooth Praxis chainring on the way, and will soon have the 52/34 combo again... curious to see how that rides.

 

[rdv]

My understanding of the constraints isn't from the % boost set, but to the max that is set. So, if I've a config at 50% and 100 W max boost, if I ride at 100W, I'll get a net of 150W (50% of my 100W input)... if I do 200W, still getting full boost of 100W to net 300W total; only when I get to say 400W input, I'll only get 25% back out because I've exceeded the max output of 100W.

So - on full beans of 200% - it'll depend on what the "max" is set for that profile - if it is 300, then you could get up to a total of 600W combined...

- Will

Agree with your example values, though both control - the 50% assist up to 200W of rider input, the 100W max boost at higher inputs.

I'd be interested in knowing how long the nominal 250W TQ HPR50 motor can sustain the max 300W output, its power curves, and how it self protects against overstress, among aspects. TQ seems mighty stingy with specifics that go beyond marketing blurb. Anyone come across insightful information?

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Agree with your example values, though both control - the 50% assist up to 200W of rider input, the 100W max boost at higher inputs.

I'd be interested in knowing how long the nominal 250W TQ HPR50 motor can sustain the max 300W output, its power curves, and how it self protects against overstress, among aspects. TQ seems mighty stingy with specifics that go beyond marketing blurb. Anyone come across insightful information?

Not sure I've seen this sort of info on any other motor system - but I'll freely admit that I've not dug into the deets looking for this either; so understand that I'm not at all saying this isn't a good thing to look into about a motor system at all... I've just not see this sort of info on any eBike's pages from the bike builders who produce the bikes.

That said, I can provide some anecdotal evidence from my own usage here in Las Vegas over the past week or so.

First up, I'm moderately fit and have been dealing with some health issues that have required me to pull back on max HR... so I can't keep up w/ the folks I used to ride with regularly. So my e-bike purchase was a way to keep up with the Jonses and to get back to the pack.

I've done some longer efforts, w/ the Domane+ in the "stock" highest support mode. I think this ends up being 150% of input power, to a max of 300W of support from the motor. So if I hit 200W, the bike will support w/ the max output of 300W

When it is cooler out there, I can do some moderate efforts of 200W for 10-15 min of time; but having to pull back on HR, I've not seen that sort of sustained power in a while, but can do about 180+ for a 30 min local climb through Red Rock scenic loop. So, at least with the way the TQ motor is implemented by TREK (and I'm pretty sure, the other folks who use it) you've got to be able to sustain a pretty hard input to get sustained upper power out of it. Maybe I'll tweak the "max" mode and will push it to 200% support and max 300W of power and will go do that RR climb. Those settings should let me hit 150W for the duration of the climb, allowing the motor to support w/ another 300W... should be "fun"

The other day I got delayed and got on the bike later than I wanted to, so the "back" of my spin for a coffee, was in 100 degrees (air) who knows what, with the sun - think my Garmin was showing 107+. I put it into the highest mode and was able to get back home (uphill, 2-3% grade average, about 10 miles) without any sort of overheat warning... I was able to get a fairly steady 8+ mile segment broken out and the motor averaged about 150W for 25 minutes. With those temps, I am pretty happy w/ the output.

Just a bit of info to say that the motor seems to hold up well in the heat and under some consistent load.

More info as I get more saddle time. 434 miles logged so far... and loving it!

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Not sure I've seen this sort of info on any other motor system - but I'll freely admit that I've not dug into the deets looking for this either; so understand that I'm not at all saying this isn't a good thing to look into about a motor system at all... I've just not see this sort of info on any eBike's pages from the bike builders who produce the bikes.

That said, I can provide some anecdotal evidence from my own usage here in Las Vegas over the past week or so.

First up, I'm moderately fit and have been dealing with some health issues that have required me to pull back on max HR... so I can't keep up w/ the folks I used to ride with regularly. So my e-bike purchase was a way to keep up with the Jonses and to get back to the pack.

I've done some longer efforts, w/ the Domane+ in the "stock" highest support mode. I think this ends up being 150% of input power, to a max of 300W of support from the motor. So if I hit 200W, the bike will support w/ the max output of 300W

When it is cooler out there, I can do some moderate efforts of 200W for 10-15 min of time; but having to pull back on HR, I've not seen that sort of sustained power in a while, but can do about 180+ for a 30 min local climb through Red Rock scenic loop. So, at least with the way the TQ motor is implemented by TREK (and I'm pretty sure, the other folks who use it) you've got to be able to sustain a pretty hard input to get sustained upper power out of it. Maybe I'll tweak the "max" mode and will push it to 200% support and max 300W of power and will go do that RR climb. Those settings should let me hit 150W for the duration of the climb, allowing the motor to support w/ another 300W... should be "fun"

The other day I got delayed and got on the bike later than I wanted to, so the "back" of my spin for a coffee, was in 100 degrees (air) who knows what, with the sun - think my Garmin was showing 107+. I put it into the highest mode and was able to get back home (uphill, 2-3% grade average, about 10 miles) without any sort of overheat warning... I was able to get a fairly steady 8+ mile segment broken out and the motor averaged about 150W for 25 minutes. With those temps, I am pretty happy w/ the output.

Just a bit of info to say that the motor seems to hold up well in the heat and under some consistent load.

More info as I get more saddle time. 434 miles logged so far... and loving it!

Thanks for the information. I would like to know if you are recording your rides with the TreK app.

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Thanks for the information. I would like to know if you are recording your rides with the TreK app.

Some yes, some no... having been (and still being) a habitual Garmin user, I'm not in the habit of recording from my phone. Also, other than an "Ave Motor Power" and "Ave Rider Power" summary numbers, you can't really look at charts of either power over time. The data is in the GPX file - but I've not delved down that rabbit hole yet... I did use the TREK app to record my coffee run, I've attached the summary info. Oh, and the app appears to calculate avg speed from total time, not moving time - even though it shows moving time on the summary screen...