Another new TQ motor: hpr40

[stompandgo]

Some of us also have real world, on-road metrics and data from our rides and races to go by. There's also the unmeasurable RPE (Relative Perceived Exertion) data that is accurate only for that rider.

The developer contacted me and explained his methodology and the systematic approach needed to get an accurate outcome. I was pleased that he does not claim it to be gospel, only an estimate. I will go through the motions and follow his instructions for my last long ride, so that we can see how close he came to predicting the eventual usage. The one variable that I use on almost every ride is the effect of shutting Off. I may turn off assist for large percentages of the ride, and there's no realistic way to predict how much Off time there would be because it is so dependent on RPE, terrain, road conditions, atmospheric conditions, etc.

I am very intrigued by this model, however. I have a ride I plan to do soon that, even with the range extender and significant time in Off, may run out of assist. I'd like to see what it comes up with.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Some of us also have real world, on-road metrics and data from our rides and races to go by.

Would love to have that kind of experience to draw on — no doubt another very useful lens on your riding. I say, the more lenses, the better.

The developer contacted me and explained his methodology and the systematic approach needed to get an accurate outcome. I was pleased that he does not claim it to be gospel, only an estimate. I will go through the motions and follow his instructions for my last long ride, so that we can see how close he came to predicting the eventual usage. The one variable that I use on almost every ride is the effect of shutting Off. I may turn off assist for large percentages of the ride, and there's no realistic way to predict how much Off time there would be because it is so dependent on RPE, terrain, road conditions, atmospheric conditions, etc.

I rarely stick to a planned route, much less a script on how to ride it. Hard to deal with that in any conceivable pre-ride range prediction scheme.

But if you find the app reasonably accurate when you actually ride a route the way you told it you would, you could use a prediction as a reference case for range management en route.

"I have the battery to ride this route this way with roughly this much left over." Your thinking about range could then delta off that case as the ride evolves.

For example, if the app predicts 20% battery left for a particular route and riding script, you should probably either (a) avoid battery-hungry deviations, or (b) compensate with some battery-saving deviations elsewhere.

The predictions might also help you decide when it's safe to leave that heavy range extender at home — with the understanding, of course, that the RE comes along in borderline cases.

 

[stompandgo]

Would love to have that kind of experience to draw on — no doubt another very useful lens on your riding. I say, the more lenses, the better.



I rarely stick to a planned route, much less a script on how to ride it. Hard to deal with that in any conceivable pre-ride range prediction scheme.

But if you find the app reasonably accurate when you actually ride a route the way you told it you would, you could use a prediction as a reference case for range management en route.

"I have the battery to ride this route this way with roughly this much left over." Your thinking about range could then delta off that case as the ride evolves.

That's exactly what I plan to use it for. I have a ride I've wanted to do since I moved here that I don't think is possible under assist from start to finish even with the range extender. The segment prediction part is hard, as the terrain is mostly rolling. It's not like I'm riding in the country with climb 1, climb 2, climb 3, etc. on the ride route. But I will try. What I hope to get out of it is some metric that represents the power deficit, i.e. you will have -100Wh, or you need 120% of your capacity, something that will help me gauge the off time. The Garmin "Smart Range" algorithm isn't bad, but I would not plan a ride on the road with it.

For example, if the app predicts 20% battery left for a particular route and riding script, you should probably either (a) avoid battery-hungry deviations, or (b) compensate with some battery-saving deviations elsewhere.

The predictions might also help you decide when it's safe to leave that heavy range extender at home — with the understanding, of course, that the RE comes along in borderline cases.

Fortunately the TQ range extender is only a bit over 2 pounds, on a 32 pound bike. It's added weight is negligible. But I get what you are saying.

 

[apctjb]

I have a ride I've wanted to do since I moved here that I don't think is possible under assist from start to finish even with the range extender. The segment prediction part is hard, as the terrain is mostly rolling. It's not like I'm riding in the country with climb 1, climb 2, climb 3, etc. on the ride route.

Sounds great, let us know how it goes.

I am going to try a 75 mile/5000ft loop I have been eyeballing this weekend. The estimator predicts 75mile range for this ride with my settings, with little safety margin. lets see..

 

[mschwett]

that's a good profile to test out such a thing, the end is all downhill

 

[apctjb]

Changed the start point so could end with some climbing. The estimator did a good job a predicting duration, average speed and ending SOC. 13.4% estimated vs 15% showing on the bike display at end of ride.

Its probably been 10 years since I last did this loop and today with a little assist from TQ I felt like I had stepped 10 years back in time. Amazing technology, why did I wait?

 

[stompandgo]

Do you feel that you changed the assist levels at the same points as the estimator?

 

[apctjb]

Do you feel that you changed the assist levels at the same points as the estimator?

Great question. Answer is Yes on the main climbs and descents. For those sections I could predict before the ride where I would change assist levels, and based on watching the watt meter on past rides what my average input was likely to be. No on the rolling sections as I was not consistent on assist or power input. There were some steep bumps and I kicked the assist up climbing and then turned it off entirely descending and that was not predicted in advance as I assumed I would be riding in Eco the entire section. That said it seems the Eco, Mid, Off pattern for that section averaged out in terms of energy draw as the bottom line prediction for the ride was close.

 

[stompandgo]

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[apctjb]

My wife has been wanting to do a 110 mile /7600' loop near us. The TQ Estimator showed it being possible so she gave it a try today. App predicted a ending SOC of 11.3%, she rolled in with 13% after 8 hours of riding. These TQ equipped road bikes are simply amazing...

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

My wife has been wanting to do a 110 mile /7600' loop near us. The TQ Estimator showed it being possible so she gave it a try today. App predicted a ending SOC of 11.3%, she rolled in with 13% after 8 hours of riding.

Amazing agreement over such a long hilly ride! How well did your wife stick to the riding script you put into the app to get the 11.3% prediction?

These TQ equipped road bikes are simply amazing...

We'd love to see your TQ bikes and the places you ride them. My 3 favorite forum threads are the ones for sharing ride photos.

2025 - Our Rides in Words, Photos, Maps and Videos

So, the calendar rolls over yet again… what will it be this time? Will RabH decide to test the 7000 mile barrier? Will Stefan figure out a way to sneak into the Tour de France? Will Art outrun a bear? Will Dave Matthews get a Fender guitar? This place is very much about the people, though of...

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Show us pictures of where you ride your ebikes!

This is around in the Pacific Northwest, Washington State

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SHOW us YOUR PIX here .... Odd, WeiRd ,UnUSuAl or EyE CaTchIng things from your rides

I can't wait

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NB: There's an under 2 MB file size limit on uploaded images.

 

[stompandgo]

That looks like the perfect ride for the estimator. A great proof of concept. Looks like a fun ride, too. Did she use a range extender?

 

[apctjb]

My 3 favorite forum threads are the ones for sharing ride photos.

Thanks, that would be fun.

Did she use a range extender?

Have not bought one yet, just the main battery. And yes a perfect ride in many aspects, incredible scenery, little traffic, good pavement,

 

[EMGX]

I've cycled in this area south of the river many, many times but only bicycled Lyle north on the trail to Klickitat then back on the road on a regular mountain bike. More north of the river on a motorcycle but that was several years ago. You got me interested in riding part of your loop to Glenwood and back to Lyle. Last time I drove the area in Feb at night on 84 coming back from Utah Lyle was glowing. Is current smoke situation very bad and how about the fire damage on your route? ALso narrow roads/no shoulders and although not a lot of traffic it can be fast which gives me pause.

 

[apctjb]

Is current smoke situation very bad and how about the fire damage on your route? ALso narrow roads/no shoulders and although not a lot of traffic it can be fast which gives me pause.

No damage along the Klickitat river heading to Glenwood or south back to Lyle except for the last mile or so coming down Canyon Rd. Although the nearby fires are immense and the sky glowing red at night the west winds are blowing the smoke to the east and air quality was great for the ride. As you say typically no shoulders on these roads, but traffic is very light, less than a dozen cars passed all day...

 

[apctjb]

How well did your wife stick to the riding script you put into the app to get the 11.3% prediction?

Fairly well according to her but planning this long a ride with lots of ups and downs was difficult with the six segment limitation in the current app. So I modified the app to allow users to add up to 10 ride segments. There is a point of diminishing returns as adding more segments does not necessarily increase accuracy. After a point other factors that you can not predict in advance (headwind, road surface) have larger impacts than fine tuning segments.

Updated App : https://sites.google.com/view/tq-hpr-ebike-range-estimator

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Fairly well according to her but planning this long a ride with lots of ups and downs was difficult with the six segment limitation in the current app. So I modified the app to allow users to add up to 10 ride segments. There is a point of diminishing returns as adding more segments does not necessarily increase accuracy. After a point other factors that you can not predict in advance (headwind, road surface) have larger impacts than fine tuning segments.

Updated App : https://sites.google.com/view/tq-hpr-ebike-range-estimator

Doubt I could follow a riding script for even 20 mi.

Operationally, you segment the planned route in some way. Then you assign an anticipated rider power and assist level to each segment, as if they'd be effectively constant throughout.

This gives the rider an effort+assist script to follow through the segments as best she can. I'd have to have the script in front of me at all times to have any chance of sticking to it — even with just 6 segments. My mind tends to wander in the saddle.

Deviating from the script throws off the app's battery consumption prediction. Might be valuable to help the rider stick to the script as much as possible. Segment boundaries could be chosen in part with the need for effort+assist constancy within segments in mind.

 

[apctjb]

This gives the rider an effort+assist script to follow through the segments as best she can. I'd have to have the script in front of me at all times to have any chance of sticking to it — even with just 6 segments. My mind tends to wander in the saddle.

So true. In practice the minor changes in assist during a segment tend to average out and are not a big needle mover. Yesterday she mentioned putting it into mid and turbo for some short climbs when her legs were tired and then went to no assist coming down. These changes were not pre planned, but did not change the final outcome. More important is adjusting motor settings with the TQ App in advance to match the ride. The motor settings are the course tuning, the segments fine tuning.