Which electric system Hub or Mid drive can be turned off and ride like a regular pedal bike?

[Blakeman62]

Can this be done on both drive system? Is one going to be harder to pedal than the other? Will it damage anything on the bike to do this?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Basically any e-bike lightweight enough can be pedalled unassisted with no harm to the e-bike part. The heavy weight of many e-bikes makes it not practical to ride them without the motor though.

There are many examples of pretty lightweight e-bikes. Many of them are equipped with Mahle X35 or X20 hub drive motors, or a Hyena motor in some Trek e-bikes. There are lightweight e-bikes with Fazua or TQ motors. I'm familiar with Specialized SL mid-drive motor e-bikes (such as Vado SL).

In recent months, I have ridden my 17 kg (37 lb) Vado SL mostly unassisted. The experience is like riding a traditional bicycle of a similar weight. What I love about riding unassisted is the silence because of the lack of the motor noise. Small climbs (such as an overpass) give me a good workout and make me stronger.

You asked if it is possible to ride with the motor (or, the e-bike system) completely off. Yes, it is possible but I ride my Vado SL with the system on but the assistance OFF. It is because I need the lighting and the data such as speed, distance ridden, cadence, leg power, calories and odometer, and these features and sensors only do work with the system on. The OFF assistance simply means "do not use the motor".

On the other hand, I always use some assistance such as 20% for my Vado 6.0 because that e-bike at 26 kg (57 lb) is simply too heavy to be ridden without the motor (at least for me).

 

[tinyrick]

Yes, it can be said that all ebikes can be ridden with the motor turned off.

But many bikes equipped with fat tires are not very suitable because they are too heavy. The thicker the tire, the greater the rolling resistance.

Lightweight motors are more suitable for riding with the motor turned off, and this is currently a trend, with more and more lightweight motors emerging.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Can this be done on both drive system? Is one going to be harder to pedal than the other? Will it damage anything on the bike to do this?

Can definitely be done on my hub-drive — just did it today for some quickie laps around my flattish neighborhood. Hard for me to imagine what damage it could do.

Some of our most knowledgeable mid-drive members also report doing it on a regular basis, so probably fine there as well.

Some mid-drive riders report that their motors are significant drags on their drivetrains when the power's off, but other riders of the same bikes dispute this. And many others say not on their makes or models. So no idea where the truth lies here.

 

[gromike]

A direct-drive hub motor has cogging resistance. All other ebikes should pedal with minimal resistance. Though, generally, ebikes suck to pedal without power.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But many bikes equipped with fat tires are not very suitable because they are too heavy. The thicker the tire, the greater the rolling resistance.

Absolutely! Test results for rolling resistance of fat tires show that a single fat tire may require even from 30 to 50 W of power (60-100 W per bike) to overcome the rolling resistance, which means the motor support is necessary to ride a fat e-bike, and the throttle is required to move the e-bike from a dead stop.

Some mid-drive riders report that their motors are significant drags on their drivetrains when the power's off, but other riders of the same bikes dispute this. And many others say not on their makes or models. So no idea where the truth lies here.

Tyres found on e-bikes of the 50s lbs weight range still require around 50 to 60 W for both wheels to roll, which calls for the Level 1 assistance. The mythical mid-motor resistance could be true for early e-bikes (like Bosch Gen 1) but modern mid-drives are equipped with clutches to isolate the rider from the motor when no assistance is used. What needs to be countered by the rider on such an e-bike is the energy necessary to accelerate the bike (kinetic energy gain), the wheels' rolling resistance, and climbing (all depending on the e-bike weight).

I could ride my 50s lb mid-drive e-bikes unpowered for around 10 miles under emergency situations. However, the fact these e-bikes are heavy and the tyres are still wide makes them feel like riding a cow, and it is not because of any motor resistance. You expect some boost there as you are used to the fact the medium weight e-bike is simply fast. My current ECO assistance on the Vado 6.0 is only around 60 W (mechanical) as I'm riding normally, with a 100 W motor power cap (for the case I'm pedalling really hard and make the motor try to provide me with a lot of assistance).

An e-bike below 40 lbs is just a traditional bicycle of a similar weight. It runs on gravel or city tyres of the total rolling resistance of perhaps 35 W (it is what any traditional rider has to handle). One of my recent gravel group rides involved two "snail-riders": a senior man on a gravel bike and a middle aged female on a bicycle similar to mine (only without the motor). I realized I needed no assistance on my Vado SL and so I rode for almost 40 miles unassisted (possibly faster than the two). Since that day, I have promised to myself to ride the Vado SL unassisted unless the conditions required turning the motor on.

A direct-drive hub motor has cogging resistance. All other ebikes should pedal with minimal resistance.

I didn't think about it. Isn't the phenomenon caused by generating the counter electromotive force when unpowered? And... DD motors are very heavy.

 

[DiggyGun]

Yes, can on my Bosch crank motor.

Don’t forget that in the UK, if going of 15.5 mph, then the motor is not working anyhow.

DG…

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Don’t forget that in the UK, if going of 15.5 mph, then the motor is not working anyhow.

That's true (it is 25 km/h in the EU) but unless you are assisted by tailwind or a road decline or your legs are really strong, it is hard to pedal a heavy e-bike above the speed restrictor. It is certainly easier on an aero and lightweight road e-bike with skinny tyres.

 

[harryS]

The 75 pound fat tire bikes, at my age, are like heart attack machines if you run out of power.I don't find them that much fun with power.

A 36-40 lb ebike with a geared hubmotor or mid drive motor will still feel like a pig to a road rider, but to us recreational riders I think they feel pretty good. I have converted a few regular bikes to electric and the added weight on mine is 10-16 pounds depending on motor/batteries. Both my wife/I have lost enough weight since we started ebiking to offset the added weight.

Light wheels amd good rolling tires make a big difference. On flat ground, less rotational mass allows the bike to accelerate faster, so you don't need to pedal as hard, even if you have pedal assist,









.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

very difficult to pedal my aventon pace 500 rear hub motor e-bike with the motor turned off. now if i take the battery off to drop weight, it gets a little bit easier. but with the battery on, its pretty heavy without assist. can be done but ill get quite a workout.

 

[fooferdoggie]

My trek even with fast 1.9" tires is not really fun riding without power. well thats in part that I like to go faster. our e tandem at 10 to 12mph we are fine without the motor.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Many members firmly believe that you should test-ride an ebike before you buy it. I'm one of them. And next time I'm in the market, I'll be testing for pedaling effort with the motor off — not just in steady level flight, as the pilots say, but also when starting out, accelerating in traffic, and climbing at least mild grades.

My hilly area is crawling with fat tire ebikes — most with 20x4" tires, but 26x4s are also popular among adults. Some are bought specifically to ride on our beaches and sandy trails. But I rarely see people actually doing that. So most are probably bought just because they look cool.

Wonder what would happen to fat tire sales if everyone tested for motor-off ridability as described above?

Based on the specs I've seen, some fat tire ebikes are geared pretty high. On these, crawling home in a low gear at a comfortable cadence might not be an option.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

PS: Lucked out last time but not leaving it to chance next time.

 

[PedalUma]

I confirm what has been written here so far. As for the mid-drives, different ones have different clutch systems. Some have almost no drag when off. Another factor is batteries. With some bikes it is easy to remove the battery, cutting down weight.

 

[Rexlion]

On my ebike, the gearing isn't as low as on my regular bike. So the ebike feels like a slug when trying to go up even a modest incline, because I can't shift far enough for mechanical advantage. Try before you buy is good advice.

 

[old guy 666]

I have a 35 pound bike with normal bike sized tires and a bafang mid drive. On boost level zero the motor disconnects from the drive train and it just like riding an older steel framed bike. I try to do that whenever possible to extend my range.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

I have a 77lb ride1up 700. I can pedal it without power, but with the battery installed. It’s a bear, but can be done. Especially once up to speed.

 

[Hootz]

I converted two bikes using geared rear hubs. I cannot feel any difference in resistance riding with power off compared to before conversion.

 

[PedalUma]

With the hub drives it is just a matter or rotational weight. It takes a bit more to get it spinning from a stop. Then the inertia makes it stable and stopping takes more force to bleed off the momentum.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

With the hub drives it is just a matter or rotational weight. It takes a bit more to get it spinning from a stop. Then the inertia makes it stable and stopping takes more force to bleed off the momentum.

The more rotational inertia (RI, aka moment of inertia) in the wheels, the more total torque (rider+motor) it takes to accelerate a bike from Speed A to faster Speed B in a fixed amount of time. And the more braking torque it takes to slow from B to A in that time.

Subjectively, greater wheel RI will make a bike feel less responsive to pedal and brake inputs, and not just because of total bike weight. Wheel size and profile (cross-section in the axle direction) also matter. This is true of any bike, regardless of motor placement.

Granted, a hub motor will add some RI to a drive wheel. But the responsible motor parts are too close to the axle to make a major contribution. Most of the wheel's RI will still reside in the rim and tire.

To a good approximation, for a given wheel (rim+tire combo), the RI about the axle centerline is

Iwr = Mw R² P,

where Mw is total (rim+tire) wheel mass in kg, R is max tire radius from axle in meters, and P is a profile factor probably less than one. So the RI is only proportional to wheel mass or weight at constant max radius and profile.

Since tire mass also grows roughly with max radius R via rim circumference, the wheel's RI ends up roughly proportional to R³. So all other things being equal, you can expect 2.2 times more wheel RI in going from a 20" to 26" wheel. Since the 26" frame will also likely be taller and heavier, you'll be looking at a much less responsive bike overall.

This also has implications for puncture-resistant tire liners. By necessity, the liner's mass ends up in the worst possible place for wheel RI. So for a given level of protection, the thinner and lighter, the better for responsiveness. Rolling resistance may also be affected.