What's with the recent gain in popularity with the M600 mid drive?

[voidedwarranty]

Watt Wagons (and by extension the collaboration with Bolton named "Falcon"), FLX, and Luna are all puting the M600 in new bikes. Is there something that is making this motor stand out as opposed to the Ultra? I assumed the Ultra to be a better motor unit overall. What am I missing?

 

[voidedwarranty]

Just by looking at the Luna X1, the M600 is capable of 2000W, which is more than enough for a lot of people.
I know Andy Kirby (YouTuber) for example, has a 4000W Ultra powered MTB, but that's way overkill for a lot of people.

Also, apparently Ultra needs a lot of juice to get moving, at least 48V 15amp, and that's quite a bit of juice if you're looking for a lightweight nimble MTB.

The price, weight, power consumption, need of high capacity battery, etc.. if you're not looking for a super fast ebike, or need to haul around a huge cargo, maybe you don't need Ultra.

To each their own I guess.. you said Ultra is a better motor overall, but that depends on who you ask.

This is same with cars...

Which motor is better?
2.0L high revving Honda VTEC 4cyl
6.3L Chevy V8 with lots of low end torque

or motorcycles, which engine is better?
600cc high revving Yamaha 4cyl
1850cc Harley-Davidson S&S V-Twin

Bafang M620 in a Cube frame

My first DIY bike, too heavy, too little range and far too much power. But ideal for pulling the dog trailer ? The M620 is the biggest one of the Bafang family, and with almost 7 kg actually much too heavy But I love the programming options that you have with the Eggrider V2 Display and...

www.emtbforums.com

Well that's what I'm getting at. The assumption would be the Ultra is newer and built to withstand more power so why the trend towards the M600? I honestly don't know and I'm not an authority on any motor. Has there been some kind of breakthrough with the M600? Have there been a lot of reliability issues with the M620? Is the M620 not worth the added weight, size, and price? Is it a battery hog? Genuinely interested in knowing from some sources with experience what the sudden allure is with the M600. Maybe it's torque sensing is better? Maybe it's more simple and I'm overthinking something. Maybe it's just about parts availability.

 

[AHicks]

The 600 is smaller and lighter, and in many cases puts out ENOUGH torque to get the job done.

A watt is a watt, whether it's an M600 or an M620 using it. All else being equal, at a pace of say 10-12mph, they'll both be using very similar amounts of power. It's not until you go to wide open throttle where you can see the M620 using WAY more watts, because it's making WAY more torque/power.

There is no break through on the M600 that I'm familiar with.

Timpo hit on this a bit. For hard play in the dirt, you have guys the LOVE their 125cc dirt bikes (a riot really), another crowd that loves their 250's the same way, then you have the real crazies on the 400's (these things have a tendency to separate your arms from your body at the shoulder, and your hands from your arms at the wrist)!! Ask THEM which they think is "better"....

The M620 is NOT a power hog. It's not until you get somebody that wants to go fast on a bike with 4"+ tires that they are hogs. They NEED to be hogs to get the job done that's being asked of them! If you take that same motor, slow it down to 10-12mph, and put some smaller street tires under it, pretty sure you'll see a total transformation in how much power it uses. For more info/opinions here, check out what the off road guys are saying about tire sizes in the 2.4 -2.8 range vs. those that like the 4" +.

-Al

 

[voidedwarranty]

The 600 is smaller and lighter, and in many cases puts out ENOUGH torque to get the job done.

A watt is a watt, whether it's an M600 or an M620 using it. All else being equal, at a pace of say 10-12mph, they'll both be using very similar amounts of power. It's not until you go to wide open throttle where you can see the M620 using WAY more watts, because it's making WAY more torque/power.

There is no break through on the M600 that I'm familiar with.

Timpo hit on this a bit. For hard play in the dirt, you have guys the LOVE their 125cc dirt bikes (a riot really), another crowd that loves their 250's the same way, then you have the real crazies on the 400's (these things have a tendency to separate your arms from your body at the shoulder, and your hands from your arms at the wrist)!! Ask THEM which they think is "better"....

The M620 is NOT a power hog. It's not until you get somebody that wants to go fast on a bike with 4"+ tires that they are hogs. They NEED to be hogs to get the job done that's being asked of them! If you take that same motor, slow it down to 10-12mph, and put some smaller street tires under it, pretty sure you'll see a total transformation in how much power it uses. For more info/opinions here, check out what the off road guys are saying about tire sizes in the 2.4 -2.8 range vs. those that like the 4" +.

-Al

M600 is CANbus right?

 

[AHicks]

I wasn't going to get into that mess, but It sure is. I understand there ARE some different programs available for the 600, and a way of installing them. What I DON"T know is what rider priorities are for each of those programs. We know 10 riders, left to their own, will likely have 10 different sets of priorities (e.g. downhill, trail, commuting, riding around in a subdivision, etc.) and each of these priorities will have a different set of parameters in use/optimized for this rider. We learned that on the early M620's. The issue with loading preprogrammed packages, is rarely are the designer's priorities listed. ALL will claim to be "best". The question we're left with is, best at what?

Sooo, one of the beauties of the Uart based M620's was the fact they could be easily customized, and the rider could kind of pick and chose what he wanted to do. With the NEW M620, the ones that are now CANbus, that ability has been shut down by Bafang, supposedly in the name of warranty costs. That's the scuttlebutt anyway. I call BS on that reason..... -Al

 

[voidedwarranty]

I wasn't going to get into that mess, but It sure is. I understand there ARE some different programs available for the 600, and a way of installing them. What I DON"T know is what rider priorities are for each of those programs. We know 10 riders, left to their own, will likely have 10 different sets of priorities (e.g. downhill, trail, commuting, riding around in a subdivision, etc.) and each of these priorities will have a different set of parameters in use/optimized for this rider. We learned that on the early M620's. The issue with loading preprogrammed packages, is rarely are the designer's priorities listed. ALL will claim to be "best". The question we're left with is, best at what?

Sooo, one of the beauties of the Uart based M620's was the fact they could be easily customized, and the rider could kind of pick and chose what he wanted to do. With the NEW M620, the ones that are now CANbus, that ability has been shut down by Bafang, supposedly in the name of warranty costs. That's the scuttlebutt anyway. I call BS on that reason..... -Al

The interesting part is in the case of Watt Wagons/Bolton, the Falcon advertises an X1 controller for the M600. That would mean they have reached the point of getting a controller to run CANbus and be programmable. Case in point their yet to be released Crosstour claims programmable to 3500w using an M620. That is surely CANbus as well being that it's still 4 months until production starts and UART is basically phased out on new motor units.

I would also add that Ludicrous V2 in Luna is claimed as being end programmable using an open source UI called VESC.

So I take it that Bafang CANbus has been cracked and now we have some omelettes to chew on.

Which brings me full circle to my question. If it's totally programmable, and the M620 is the stronger motor (my assumption, no personal experience with either), then is the use of the M600 purely for cost, fitment, weight savings, availability? Or is there a hardware functionality of the M600 that is proving better? Better torque sensing?

 

[AHicks]

Before you get too far ahead of yourself, you should now that some of these M620 controller conversions require the motor be a UART based motor - unless THAT has changed. It's something you need to look in to....

The M620 CANbus has NOT been cracked.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong for sure, there is NO "totally progammable" CANbus M600 or M620. Not like what we have on the UART based M620 anyway. They may be referring to the canned/preprogrammed stuff they have available.

"I would also add that Ludicrous V2 in Luna is claimed as being end programmable using an open source UI called VESC."
This would be news to me, or is then when/if released? -Al

 

[voidedwarranty]

Before you get too far ahead of yourself, you should now that some of these M620 controller conversions require the motor be a UART based motor - unless THAT has changed. It's something you need to look in to....

The M620 CANbus has NOT been cracked.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong for sure, there is NO "totally progammable" CANbus M600 or M620. Not like what we have on the UART based M620 anyway. They may be referring to the canned/preprogrammed stuff they have available.

"I would also add that Ludicrous V2 in Luna is claimed as being end programmable using an open source UI called VESC."
This would be news to me, or is then when/if released? -Al

To the first point. A bike that is only in preorder and won't be in production for several more months stands no chance of shipping with UART motors w/ X1. Those are most certainly CANbus with a WW X1 that is CAN compatible. The Sondors mid drive bikes that started shipping at the beginning of 2021 were all CANbus Ultras. I don't see how UART M620s would still be available especially at a scale for a new product launch (obviously this is speculative). I had conversations with WW as far back as 11/20 with them stating they were working with Innotrace to figure out the CANbus controllers for X1 upgrades. So it seems to me like that's enough pieces of a puzzle to come to a safe assumption.

The VESC that Luna uses for V2 Ludicrous has screenshots on their website that show an awfully large amount of data and customization options. As far as the bike, it's on their new X2 which apparently sold out almost immediately but haven't heard anything about bikes in customer hands yet.

Oh and the third part. The collaboration between Bolton and WW. This is very new to me but it turns out Bolton will be a supplier of Hydra and Crosstour based on their current website configuration. There is also a bike on their website called Bolton Falcon "powered by WW" painted on the side of the bike. It looks identical to a Hydra but lists an M600 motor and a $700 upgrade to X1. So further proof that X1 now has CANbus compatibility. How much customization is yet to be seen I guess (without direct comment from Bolton or Pushkar)

 

[JRA]

I was after an M600 FS bike ever since I saw the motor exposed at Eurobike 4 years ago. While attracted to its 750w/high nm torque figures mainly it was because it was an integrated motor with a decent Q factor and a torque PAS. Oh and a throttle, gotsta have one of those.

Seemed like there were alot of toothing problems with the motor and the Can Bus program definitely seemed to be one of the flys. Then there was the noise that folks really didn't like but that was sorted with the $400 upgrade to the PEET gear that ended up coming stock on the X2 recently on BF sale. For the same price as a Z1 with the UART/M620 which leads me to my punchline.

By chance I missed the M600 opening round of mediums day of the sale and after some soul searching and being tired of putting off the inevitable I decided to just get a Z1. It had the same drivetrain/brakes/suspenders/battery and geo(ish). Yeah it weighed more but I could lose a few pounds myself. After about 200+ miles now I don't regret my decision one bit.

If I want to tool around using 750w no problem, just work those legs and take whatever speed you can get. if you want to go faster go up a few modes/gears and keep the same leg work and you go faster, sometimes much, but uphill, steep uphill double track specifically, 5+mph faster. The M600 can be bumped up to 2000w approx with their Ludi V2 but the M620 is only starting to come on the pipe while doing the former.

I still haven't been able to access the program due to lack of a Windows machine but after that I expect to be able to fine tune my experience enough to enjoy it even more. And that's not saying how much I enjoy the chassis and how it performs! I don't know much about the other brands mentioned but I think that the M620 is a good motor that will stand the test of time and be repairable when it eventually starts wearing out parts.

 

[voidedwarranty]

I was after an M600 FS bike ever since I saw the motor exposed at Eurobike 4 years ago. While attracted to its 750w/high nm torque figures mainly it was because it was an integrated motor with a decent Q factor and a torque PAS. Oh and a throttle, gotsta have one of those.

Seemed like there were alot of toothing problems with the motor and the Can Bus program definitely seemed to be one of the flys. Then there was the noise that folks really didn't like but that was sorted with the $400 upgrade to the PEET gear that ended up coming stock on the X2 recently on BF sale. For the same price as a Z1 with the UART/M620 which leads me to my punchline.

By chance I missed the M600 opening round of mediums day of the sale and after some soul searching and being tired of putting off the inevitable I decided to just get a Z1. It had the same drivetrain/brakes/suspenders/battery and geo(ish). Yeah it weighed more but I could lose a few pounds myself. After about 200+ miles now I don't regret my decision one bit.

If I want to tool around using 750w no problem, just work those legs and take whatever speed you can get. if you want to go faster go up a few modes/gears and keep the same leg work and you go faster, sometimes much, but uphill, steep uphill double track specifically, 5+mph faster. The M600 can be bumped up to 2000w approx with their Ludi V2 but the M620 is only starting to come on the pipe while doing the former.

I still haven't been able to access the program due to lack of a Windows machine but after that I expect to be able to fine tune my experience enough to enjoy it even more. And that's not saying how much I enjoy the chassis and how it performs! I don't know much about the other brands mentioned but I think that the M620 is a good motor that will stand the test of time and be repairable when it eventually starts wearing out parts.

It would be great to learn more about just how much can be tuned and altered using Luna's VESC app. From the screenshots on their website it looks like there may be a lot of customization available.

 

[JRA]

It would be great to learn more about just how much can be tuned and altered using Luna's VESC app. From the screenshots on their website it looks like there may be a lot of customization available.

@rtp is the man that is on top of the V2 controller and should be along to explain it's merits.

 

[AHicks]

It would be great to learn more about just how much can be tuned and altered using Luna's VESC app. From the screenshots on their website it looks like there may be a lot of customization available.

The second piece of that same question here would be WHO will be able to do the tuning? Will this be something you can do personally, or will you have to make a request for a change, then be sent a file (in whatever format) to load? And as you mention, exactly what parameters are we talking about that can be "tuned"?

Last thought, I'm talking about what can be done today, not some development project.

 

[voidedwarranty]

The second piece of that same question here would be WHO will be able to do the tuning? Will this be something you can do personally, or will you have to make a request for a change, then be sent a file (in whatever format) to load? And as you mention, exactly what parameters are we talking about that can be "tuned"?

Last thought, I'm talking about what can be done today, not some development project.

There is an app for your smart phone and windows based computer. So it's the end user making the changes.

 

[AHicks]

@rtp is the man that is on top of the V2 controller and should be along to explain it's merits.

I got into it a little bit, and clearly there's a lot to it. As I have no plans to go with any type of performance controller, it's of no more than passing interest here. I'm all for somebody that's familiar with this to correct anything I've said, and move on from there.....

 

[rtp]

Just back from a day and a half at the coast and the a night away for NYE, but…
Yes, the ‘LudiV2’ controller is released. The controllers designer has been working with VESC since 2015 or so on various projects, and there’s a thread on a predecessor on emtb forums.

A nearly identical controller was released for the BBHSD in early 2021 by Luna, and there’s a looong thread on Lunas kb/forum on that, with several quite happ users.
The variant for the M600 is essentially the same controller, with different firmware to account for, for example, the torque sensor. You can technically flash the same controller with either firmware, although I cant think of why you’d want to..

The M600 controller document is online and linked to here: https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...na-m600-ludicrous-v2-controller-documentation

The code is open source, although the M600 code base has not yet been merged back to the main VESC branch…the BBHSD code has been and I know its in process.

The mobile app is effectively a ‘simple and safe’ version of the vesc full desktop app. At the moment, given ‘v1’ was for the BBHSD the exposed settings are more throttle focused, along with typical things like max power, max current, etc. in configurable ‘profiles’ for Street Legal, Trail, and Ludicrous modes. These values operate in conjunction with the display set PAS levels, e.g. if set to 750W max power, and display is set to 9 levels, each level is ~11% added power from the previous.

The mobile app also has a typical dashboard including temp gauge, ability to set battery cutoff limits, wheel size, speed limits - many of the things not user-set table on an OE M600. It can also datalog a ton of things including gps position, altitude, power, watt-hours consumed, etc.

What the mobile app does not have right now is a simple way to adjust the ‘ramp’ or sensitivity directly. I believe this can be done via the full app, but have submitted as an enhancement request - I usually am in lvl 2 of 9 a majority of my riding time, and might slow down the initial power ramp time, but it’s not ‘needed’ as much as I’d like to do some fine-tuning. Power is there within very few degrees of pedal pressure, so was surprised to see claims of Hydra/Archon not kicking in for 1/3rd to 1/2 crank revolution, as I’d expect the torque sensors to be quite similar across the M600 and Ultra, so am sure it’s just a config setting for Archon vs any hw limitations.

I swapped bikes for a bit with my wife (Bosch), and other than power from a complete standstill (Ludi come on faster), once moving, the feel is very comparable. L2 of 9 in Trail profile is probably a little more power than Bosch eco mode.

(PS - if there is a valid Archon/Innotrace manual anywhere, or if anyone can just post the actual user-configurable options, I’d appreciate it..)

Neither the Archon nor Ludi seem to provide 1:1 direct settings vs the UART config settings and from what I’ve seen and read, I expect both to continue to evolve, hopefully in the direction of improved out-of-box configurations (although other than slightly toning down ramp-up from a standstill, I don’t have a huge list - feels very nice.), but also in which specific settings are made available for intuitive change by users. The full desktop app for VESC does allow more configuration, but also can smoke a motor in the wrong hands/wrong settings.

I’m sure some things not user-exposed are hard-coded within the firmware itself, but even if so, they could become exposed over time, or in the case of Ludi…source code is available.

M600 vs M620/Ultra
AHicks and others covered most. I think the motors came out at around the same time, even if Ultra complete bikes started coming out slightly later.
The M500(eu spec 250W nominal) and M600 share the same mounting, not sure on internals, while the Ultra is a fair amount heavier and bigger. Part of the weight and size is in the motor stator and windings, and the M620 can dissipate heat better than the M600 and as such, can run at higher sustained power output > 1kW for longer without going into thermal cutoff.

A way I like to look at it is this - anyone expecting to be heavy on the throttle or has a huge concern on top speed, just buy the Ultra. It was designed for cargo bikes but can sustain both higher output than the M600, and sustain it for longer.

Bafang pricing is, well - stupid, or distributors are taking advantage. M500, M600 and M620s all cost pretty much the same, which doesn’t do any of us any favors really…

Meanwhile, the only non-science-project or plug-and-play programmable options are UART Ultra while they last, Innotrace if outside the US (and Canada, I think?), WW who AFAIK wont sell the controller or controller/motor separately at the moment, or the LudiV2, also not purchaseable at the moment other than with a bike.

Note - there is little reason the LudiV2 couldn’t be sold for Ultras - possible a board layout change, but not insurmountable, and same applies to Archon/Innotrace for M600.

With the relatively non-existent price difference in motors, once a reliable, able-to-be-delivered-in-reasonable-time controller option happens for the Ultra, I’d probably choose whichever motor has better parts supply chain reliability. As mentioned, given a competent controller or just ability to set max amps, you can turn the Ultra into a 500W or 750W nominal motor if you’d like… Yes, it’s a few lbs heavier and probably overkill for anyone actually wanting to pedal/get a workout, and I’d never intentionally add significant weight to a bike/motorcycle/car, but - does the few lbs really matter for most?

I realized even on my BBHSD I’d be at low PAS levels and sometimes ride that fat pig (>80# with bat) unassisted for a bit), so personally I don’t really even ‘need’ the 1500-2kW ma output of the LudiV2 M600), but everyone’s situation is different.

 

[AHicks]

I have a Vesc question for you maybe? Are you familiar with the several Windows versions, that sell for several different prices (including a free one), or is that something new?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The code is open source, although the M600 code base has not yet been merged back to the main VESC branch…the BBHSD code has been and I know its in process.

The mobile app is effectively a ‘simple and safe’ version of the vesc full desktop app. At the moment, given ‘v1’ was for the BBHSD the exposed settings are more throttle focused, along with typical things like max power, max current, etc. in configurable ‘profiles’ for Street Legal, Trail, and Ludicrous modes. These values operate in conjunction with the display set PAS levels, e.g. if set to 750W max power, and display is set to 9 levels, each level is ~11% added power from the previous.

The mobile app also has a typical dashboard including temp gauge, ability to set battery cutoff limits, wheel size, speed limits - many of the things not user-set table on an OE M600. It can also datalog a ton of things including gps position, altitude, power, watt-hours consumed, etc.

What the mobile app does not have right now is a simple way to adjust the ‘ramp’ or sensitivity directly. I believe this can be done via the full app, but have submitted as an enhancement request - I usually am in lvl 2 of 9 a majority of my riding time, and might slow down the initial power ramp time, but it’s not ‘needed’ as much as I’d like to do some fine-tuning. Power is there within very few degrees of pedal pressure, so was surprised to see claims of Hydra/Archon not kicking in for 1/3rd to 1/2 crank revolution, as I’d expect the torque sensors to be quite similar across the M600 and Ultra, so am sure it’s just a config setting for Archon vs any hw limitations.

I swapped bikes for a bit with my wife (Bosch), and other than power from a complete standstill (Ludi come on faster), once moving, the feel is very comparable. L2 of 9 in Trail profile is probably a little more power than Bosch eco mode.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
From my personal experience in the past, I had found that the torque sensing mechanism on the Bosch Gen-4 was much smoother.
The Ultra on the other hand felt un-refined. The previous generation of M600's also felt somewhat lackluster when compared to the smoothness of Yamaha or Bosch.
Now, with the release of new firmware from Luna and their Ludicrous V2 controller, I am very intrigued and I would be interested in hearing about a comparison of this new motor vs the older version. Like how much better is it?

 

[AHicks]

Thanks for sharing your experience.
From my personal experience in the past, I had found that the torque sensing mechanism on the Bosch Gen-4 was much smoother.
The Ultra on the other hand felt un-refined. The previous generation of M600's also felt somewhat lackluster when compared to the smoothness of Yamaha or Bosch.
Now, with the release of new firmware from Luna and their Ludicrous V2 controller, I am very intrigued and I would be interested in hearing about a comparison of this new motor vs the older version. Like how much better is it?

Quickly, I can compare the torque sensing of an "as received from Bafang" M620 torque sensing to that after the Frey 'Smooth" tuning. I think it safe to say one works, and one doesn't. There's a night and day difference.....

 

[rtp]

Thanks for sharing your experience.
From my personal experience in the past, I had found that the torque sensing mechanism on the Bosch Gen-4 was much smoother.
The Ultra on the other hand felt un-refined. The previous generation of M600's also felt somewhat lackluster when compared to the smoothness of Yamaha or Bosch.
Now, with the release of new firmware from Luna and their Ludicrous V2 controller, I am very intrigued and I would be interested in hearing about a comparison of this new motor vs the older version. Like how much better is it?

I’m not convinced it’s the sensor as much as the controller - how often is it reading, and what is it doing with them including any interpolation, extrapolation or smoothing.. might be worth digging out the specs of the sensors used..but I think a significant improvement is down to the controller and its firmware and software/programming. There are at least a few with Innotrace/Archon Ultras who swear it’s the ‘only’ way to do an Ultra bike, etc. I kind of wish I had an Ultra to play with, but not likely any time soon..

One thing I haven’t experienced is the newer ‘eMTB mode’ or whatever Bosch is calling it, and seems interesting, kind of like dynamic mode selection…with a bit of clever programming though, the Ludi or Innotrace could do similar. The Ludi seems to have a gyroscope input so one could see doing something in the future like a combination of incline or gps location and planned route for ‘dynamic modes.

 

[rtp]

I have a Vesc question for you maybe? Are you familiar with the several Windows versions, that sell for several different prices (including a free one), or is that something new?

Not positive what you’re asking on this one…?

The older VESC tool for original vesc controller (there seem to be over a dozen controller variants based on VESC now..) was reworked, and is available here or build from source:

VESC Project

vesc-project.com

GitHub - vedderb/vesc_tool: The source code for VESC Tool. See vesc-project.com

The source code for VESC Tool. See vesc-project.com - vedderb/vesc_tool

github.com

There s a VESC mobile app on Google Play (not yet compatible with Ludi) but the source is in the repo.
One ‘oddity’ of vesc is the firmware for various controllers is part of the overall vesc build - some information from the firmware builds is used to determine e.g. how to read/write non-standard or extended settings.

You should be able to get latest vesc desktop from the vesc project pages for Windows or Linux..