UC Pro Step through frame prototype build pics. Painting / Decal / lights etc will be done in Boston.

[Gee_Whiz]

I'm not sure it was conveyed well, but I can see Stuarts point. The initial UC Pro offering appears to be Superman in Clark Kent's clothing, and therefore mostly un-assuming other than the shiny frame and curious looking chunk in the triangle.

The look of the upcoming iteration announces to the world it's capabilities by just looking at it, and that can and will be a huge concern in high-theft environments/usually urban.

However, for watt wagon to grow and compete in the demographic they are targeting.. their offerings will have to meet industry visual standards on the higher end and their flagship bikes should be pristine, with clean curves and a modern look.

I personally do also hope that the simple titanium look is not lost however, as I do find great value in that one for *my* purposes as I think a more innocuous look can be preferential to many people.

 

[pushkar]

I'm not sure it was conveyed well, but I can see Stuarts point. The initial UC Pro offering appears to be Superman in Clark Kent's clothing, and therefore mostly un-assuming other than the shiny frame and curious looking chunk in the triangle.

The look of the upcoming iteration announces to the world it's capabilities by just looking at it, and that can and will be a huge concern in high-theft environments/usually urban.

However, for watt wagon to grow and compete in the demographic they are targeting.. their offerings will have to meet industry visual standards on the higher end and their flagship bikes should be pristine, with clean curves and a modern look.

I personally do also hope that the simple titanium look is not lost however, as I do find great value in that one for *my* purposes as I think a more innocuous look can be preferential to many people.

Hi @Gee_Whiz , I appreciate the kind words.

1. Carbon frame will have the ability to do GPS. However, nothing is foolproof, but you can minimize theft with a GPS + good lock + taking precautions.

2. Oh.. we will not phase out Titanium by a long shot ... as they said in casablanca......"we will always have paris titanium".

 

[Gee_Whiz]

Hi @Gee_Whiz , I appreciate the kind words.

1. Carbon frame will have the ability to do GPS. However, nothing is foolproof, but you can minimize theft with a GPS + good lock + taking precautions.

2. Oh.. we will not phase out Titanium by a long shot ... as they said in casablanca......"we will always have paris titanium".



View attachment 66415

Hi Pushkar, thank you for the additional information. I do agree common sense and proper planning will go a long way in preventing bike thefts. I'm also unsure if law enforcement will utilize GPS to track stolen property, but the option is a wonderful add imo.

With respect to the mention of carbon frames; do you have any concerns regarding the incredible capable speeds of the motor, the lessening of the frame weight, which will allow even greater speed and mobility, and the inherent fragility of carbon frames with any slight impact? I know the Luna Apollo has attempted to accomplish something similar, but not sure there's any published data on how that bike has been received.

 

[Law]

What’s the estimated weight savings with CF frame?

 

[pushkar]

Hi Pushkar, thank you for the additional information. I do agree common sense and proper planning will go a long way in preventing bike thefts. I'm also unsure if law enforcement will utilize GPS to track stolen property, but the option is a wonderful add imo.

Thanks.

With respect to the mention of carbon frames; do you have any concerns regarding the incredible capable speeds of the motor, the lessening of the frame weight, which will allow even greater speed and mobility, and the inherent fragility of carbon frames with any slight impact? I know the Luna Apollo has attempted to accomplish something similar, but not sure there's any published data on how that bike has been received.

1. I am testing a triangle prototype of the frame right now and here is a sneak peek of the raw frame (still to be painted). The weight savings are around ~7-8 lbs for out spec frame (325-350lb load capacity). So not officially published but I am speaking from our current prototype

2. With this frame the CG is slightly lower (the battery is fatter and shorter, and close to the center of the bike) So there are definitely handling improvements.

3. We are also making the frame slightly wider / "squatty", with a larger dropout- so riders have the option of doing a wider tire (up to 2.8in). (ikr!) We have made changes to the geometry and i am waiting for the prototype frame to be shipped soon.

4. Fragility - frames will pass EN and ASTM tests. We have to rely on a standard. There will always be an edge case, regardless of what material one chooses. Since we are in a way "over building" our frames, and because the frames pass the tests, we are confident that they will be around for a long time. That being said, I have seen aluminum frames breaking, titanium breaking, carbon breaking... so if someone actually wants to break a frame, they will succeed.

5. There are a LOT of carbon based bikes that take a significant amount of abuse rough use without issues - e.g. our Travalanche (Exess HP180) is a full suspension trail bike in carbon. It is extremely sturdy. Carbon has come a long way, and esp more so if you build it right.

 

[pushkar]

What’s the estimated weight savings with CF frame?

6-8 lbs depending on the size of the frame. 6 lbs for small, to 8 lbs on XL.

 

[Gee_Whiz]

Thanks.



1. I am testing a triangle prototype of the frame right now and here is a sneak peek of the raw frame (still to be painted). The weight savings are around ~7-8 lbs for out spec frame (325-350lb load capacity). So not officially published but I am speaking from our current prototype


View attachment 66417


2. With this frame the CG is slightly lower (the battery is fatter and shorter, and close to the center of the bike) So there are definitely handling improvements.

3. We are also making the frame slightly wider / "squatty", with a larger dropout- so riders have the option of doing a wider tire (up to 2.8in). (ikr!) We have made changes to the geometry and i am waiting for the prototype frame to be shipped soon.

4. Fragility - frames will pass EN and ASTM tests. We have to rely on a standard. There will always be an edge case, regardless of what material one chooses. Since we are in a way "over building" our frames, and because the frames pass the tests, we are confident that they will be around for a long time. That being said, I have seen aluminum frames breaking, titanium breaking, carbon breaking... so if someone actually wants to break a frame, they will succeed.

5. There are a LOT of carbon based bikes that take a significant amount of abuse rough use without issues - e.g. our Travalanche (Exess HP180) is a full suspension trail bike in carbon. It is extremely sturdy. Carbon has come a long way, and esp more so if you build it right.

Very thorough response. Thank you!

 

[onlineaddy]

We have made changes to the geometry and i am waiting for the prototype frame to be shipped soon.

Would you share that new geometry with us?

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

When carbon fiber fails, it fails suddenly, as it has very low elasticity and plasticity; it's brittle. Steel will deform before it fails, which may give you a bit of a warning before it fails depending on the circumstance. For example, a hard rock strike can shatter carbon fiber frame where it would bend and deform a steel frame. Both will ruin the frame, but a shattered frame is more likely to be catastrophic for the rider.

 

[pushkar]

Would you share that new geometry with us?

The reach and stack are the same as the current t bike. I’ll have the final wheelbase and head tube angle early next week.

 

[pushkar]

When carbon fiber fails, it fails suddenly, as it has very low elasticity and plasticity; it's brittle. Steel will deform before it fails, which may give you a bit of a warning before it fails depending on the circumstance. For example, a hard rock strike can shatter carbon fiber frame where it would bend and deform a steel frame. Both will ruin the frame, but a shattered frame is more likely to be catastrophic for the rider.

I’ve been hard pressed to find widespread failure of carbon. I mean pretty much all high end bike (sworks, zeroed, domane etc ) are all carbon. People stand and literally bump them against rocks 24/7. Technology is fairly mature and all modeling softwares have good carbon fiber characteristics built in.
Modern carbon frames don’t “shatter” anymore. It’s layered (3-5 or more depending on the spot) - so you will actually notice failure style (if it happens) is very very similar to a metal frame failure.


Honestly I didn’t think like this till a few months ago but after being unable to break a carbon frame after fairly intensive “tests” (like dropping from 15-20 feet repeatedly) I’m convinced that the old carbon frame stereotype doesn’t hold anymore. I’m not going by articles but rather trying to prove it myself before I can sell these.

 

[TomD]

I really debated whether I needed another 70+ pound Ultra based bike but invested in the UCP because I wanted a bike wtih upgraded controller and IGH/belt drive and the founder pricing was too good to pass up. Once I upgraded the controller on my Frey CC I was loving it so much I was I was ambivalent about the UCP . The switch to CF makes it a LOT more compelling for me personally with the weight being closer to 65 pounds.

 

[pushkar]

I really debated whether I needed another 70+ pound Ultra based bike but invested in the UCP because I wanted a bike wtih upgraded controller and IGH/belt drive and the founder pricing was too good to pass up. Once I upgraded the controller on my Frey CC I was loving it so much I was I was ambivalent about the UCP . The switch to CF makes it a LOT more compelling for me personally with the weight being closer to 65 pounds.

Clocking very close to that right now for size medium.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

I’ve been hard pressed to find widespread failure of carbon. I mean pretty much all high end bike (sworks, zeroed, domane etc ) are all carbon. People stand and literally bump them against rocks 24/7. Technology is fairly mature and all modeling softwares have good carbon fiber characteristics built in.
Modern carbon frames don’t “shatter” anymore. It’s layered (3-5 or more depending on the spot) - so you will actually notice failure style (if it happens) is very very similar to a metal frame failure.


Honestly I didn’t think like this till a few months ago but after being unable to break a carbon frame after fairly intensive “tests” (like dropping from 15-20 feet repeatedly) I’m convinced that the old carbon frame stereotype doesn’t hold anymore. I’m not going by articles but rather trying to prove it myself before I can sell these.

If you run an actual test of a modern carbon fiber where the ultimate strength is exceeded, it will fail in brittle fashion. See, for example -

. Steel fails much differently -

.

 

[pushkar]

If you run an actual test of a modern carbon fiber where the ultimate strength is exceeded, it will fail in brittle fashion. See, for example -

. Steel fails much differently -

.

Single layer and directional carbon fiber will shatter- and I am glad it does in a predictable manner, and that’s actually why we can model it so well!!

However Modern bikes have a different build style, and involves multiple crisscrossing layers. It also has glue that allows carbon to mimic tensile failure pattern like metal.

See here.

 

[onlineaddy]

Pushkar, can we get the frame in the bare carbon look like in the video instead of painted? That would really show off the material.

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar, can we get the frame in the bare carbon look like in the video instead of painted? That would really show off the material.

Oooh. Great idea. I’ll check with fab tonight.

 

[pushkar]

Oooh. Great idea. I’ll check with fab tonight.

Sorry. I just realized it’s not a fab question. It’s a different style fiber called 3K. We can try it but I’m not sure if this fab can get that level of finish on the 3K fiber. (We are using Matt UD for easier paint / finish options).

More reading material here. https://www.eiecarbon.com/carbon-technology-fiber-weave-for-rim-matte-glossy-ud-3k-12k.html

 

[reed scott]

Single layer and directional carbon fiber will shatter- and I am glad it does in a predictable manner, and that’s actually why we can model it so well!!

However Modern bikes have a different build style, and involves multiple crisscrossing layers. It also has glue that allows carbon to mimic tensile failure pattern like metal.

See here.

Watched the whole thing. Extremely labor intensive as well as necessitating advanced craftsmanship. Doesn't look at all economical unless one is willing to pay the freight to lose the weight. Stick me with the extra kilos and allow me to keep more pounds in me pocket guv. JMO

 

[pushkar]

Watched the whole thing. Extremely labor intensive as well as necessitating advanced craftsmanship. Doesn't look at all economical unless one is willing to pay the freight to lose the weight. Stick me with the extra kilos and allow me to keep more pounds in me pocket guv. JMO

Ha ha. Yeah - one offs are pretty much always like this. Check out the Aluminum frames made by Ventura for HPCycles- small quantities are always labor intensive.
However at scale these things are fortunately somewhat automated.