Talk About The Kindernay Gear System

[Ebiker33]

I see this is a option now on the Watt Wagon, since it's more money than the Rohloff, is it worth the upgrade, is it really better?
Anybody have this and tested it ?

https://kindernay.com/products/

• 543% gear ratio with 14 speeds in sequence, and even 13.9% intervals
• Lightest 14 speed gear hub ever, approx. 100 grams pr. speed
• The first multispeed gear hub with a full-length tunnel extending all the way through, for receiving standard 12 and 10mm through-axles
• Multiple axle stub versions available, for both 142mm/148mm/197mm x12mm and 135mm/190mm x10mm frames
• Rigid axle mount with minimal torsional flexing, for a stiff rear wheel
• 24 engagement points per revolution, for rapid pedal engagement at any time
• Large diameter clutches, for high torque-capability and gear strength
• Instantaneously shifts – once the shift-click is heard, the shift has been completed
• Shift standing still, shift coasting, shift while airborne, shift under load
• Low maintenance, very long service life
• Outlasts your bike – move it on to your next bike, or sell it and upgrade to a next-gen version

Here is Pushkar comment from the other thread that caught my attention.

"They work quite well, need minimal maintenance, and we have not had failures in our tests even with with full unrestricted throttle."

Being able to throttle with the full 160nm of the Ultra is a great upgrade, I really like it.

 

[Ayl]

The Kindernay Gear System looks great, and I'd love to test it out if I was ever provided an ebike equipped with it for me to do a review.
Currently though I don't see myself changing to this IGH anytime soon. Before my current ebike, my homebrew used a Nuvinci 330 IGH, and it wasn't too bad, but the gear ratio was poor. My Ultimate Commuter has the Rohloff and although the gear ratio is slightly less than Kindernay it's totally taking care of my ebiking needs, and the Rohloff Speedhub has been around awhile and tested.

Even though I don't see myself upgrading my IGH anytime soon, I'd still like to hear anyone's personal views who have tested a Kindernay hub, especially on a Bafang Ultimate, or BBSHD engine.

 

[pushkar]

I don't want to comment on the performance just yet (will definitely be biased) but I want to highlight the cost differential briefly

1. Kindernay is thru-axle. I am impressed with thru axles, esp with IGH - since it always keeps the hub aligned with minimal effort.
2. The swap shell is a change in the way I have started thinking about the hubs.
3. Initial investment is larger because it has modular pieces, and really no calibration is needed (e.g. all other hubs need some form of calibration when switching).
4. Hydraulic shifting is nice. It also doesn't have issues with "cable stretch" / re-tensioning.

 

[Ayl]

I found this review of the Kindernay on an emtb informative:

 

[opimax]

Want to verify I understand this correctly, no need to blip your pedaling to shift gears up an incline? This is a deal breaker for me so I am needing to verify....similar enough to the standard chain setup which needs pedaling to shift?. I can deal with a Very slight delay but not stopping my motion and effort to shift.

I also don’t like twist shift at all so it would be the famous “win win” for me.

lastly if it a push button shift any chance it becomes electric as in DI2? I want it all! money not an issue but reliability is!

just watched the video , wasn’t there when I posted , seems somewhere between Rolholf and standard chain set up. I did see the rider have to stop a one point to go up the hill and heard him suggest backing off to improve shifting. I guess I would need to test...

 

[pushkar]

I spoke with Kindernay and electric shifting is not in the near term plans.

 

[opimax]

It wouldn’t work for my wife without so her bike stays as planned , I am peobably still there too but need to come test theses awesome machines!

 

[Cyklefanatic]

I see this is a option now on the Watt Wagon, since it's more money than the Rohloff, is it worth the upgrade, is it really better?
Anybody have this and tested it ?

https://kindernay.com/products/

• 543% gear ratio with 14 speeds in sequence, and even 13.9% intervals
• Lightest 14 speed gear hub ever, approx. 100 grams pr. speed
• The first multispeed gear hub with a full-length tunnel extending all the way through, for receiving standard 12 and 10mm through-axles
• Multiple axle stub versions available, for both 142mm/148mm/197mm x12mm and 135mm/190mm x10mm frames
• Rigid axle mount with minimal torsional flexing, for a stiff rear wheel
• 24 engagement points per revolution, for rapid pedal engagement at any time
• Large diameter clutches, for high torque-capability and gear strength
• Instantaneously shifts – once the shift-click is heard, the shift has been completed
• Shift standing still, shift coasting, shift while airborne, shift under load
• Low maintenance, very long service life
• Outlasts your bike – move it on to your next bike, or sell it and upgrade to a next-gen version

Here is Pushkar comment from the other thread that caught my attention.

"They work quite well, need minimal maintenance, and we have not had failures in our tests even with with full unrestricted throttle."

Being able to throttle with the full 160nm of the Ultra is a great upgrade, I really like it.

Looks very well made. Be interested to hear from users who put real miles on them.
if a anybody ever made a hub dive to mount on that exterior cage you would have a gearbox and motor in one piece. And you could run a larger chain with perfect chain line that would last forever.

 

[Ebiker33]

^^^^^^^^^
It's a good point, 2 points is always better than three for stress, back in the day there were all kinds of three wheel bandsaws, and they virtually stopped making them because they were so notorious for breaking blades, mirco stress from three points verses 2, even if people were cutting perfectly straight with no bends or twists they will still breaking them.
Makes me wonder if that's why the Ultra is breaking chains?

 

[onlineaddy]

@pushkar have you already tested the Kindernay with the Ultra/Archon? How well do they perform together?

 

[Deacon Blues]

The shifters on the Kindernay Gear System look really clunky and I don't particularly like the idea of having two shifters and the companying cables.
Having said that, I'd like to find out what Pushkar thinks of this shifter kit once he uses it for a while.

 

[pushkar]

Disclaimer - My feedback is biased. This is based on 1500miles of riding

It took me a day to switch to the thumb shifter. The placement of the throttle is affected a little bit- it’s a little further away from the palm / grips.

Hub takes 100-200 miles to break in. Becomes noticeably quieter after that.

I like thumb shifting better. I wish rohloff had that option natively.
The same guidelines for throttle exist (like rohloff ). If using a throttle, please stay below gear 7.
There’s not a noticeable difference for commuting though Kindernay has a larger gear ratio. However lower gears are more meaningful for climbing.

 

[Ebiker33]

Why are 2 shifters required?

 

[Deacon Blues]

Why are 2 shifters required?

One for up shifting and one for down shifting.

 

[coldriderwi]

Disclaimer - My feedback is biased. This is based on 1500miles of riding

It took me a day to switch to the thumb shifter. The placement of the throttle is affected a little bit- it’s a little further away from the palm / grips.

Hub takes 100-200 miles to break in. Becomes noticeably quieter after that.

I like thumb shifting better. I wish rohloff had that option natively.
The same guidelines for throttle exist (like rohloff ). If using a throttle, please stay below gear 7.
There’s not a noticeable difference for commuting though Kindernay has a larger gear ratio. However lower gears are more meaningful for climbing.

So which do you prefer? Rohloff or kindernay?

 

[Deacon Blues]

Great question, coldriderwi. There's at least a few WW Superbike pre-order customers who would like to know the answer.

 

[pushkar]

So which do you prefer? Rohloff or kindernay?

Kindernay is different.

1. I like the hydraulic shifting - very crisp. There are no mid-shift type issues so far - e.g. with typical IGH the gear may engage half way (if you know what i mean). With Kindernay if you click, it always engages at 100%.

2. Shifting 3 gears at a time is awesome. With other hubs, I have to 'look' briefly to ensure I am not geared too high or too low when I shift. With Kindernay, you are always ± 3 and you are never too far away from your desired gear. This is growing on me now.

Both changes are very subtle and talking in computer terms, it frees up ~5-10% of my CPU while riding. (I am sure there is a better analogy here). As I mentioned earlier, this affects placement of the throttle, but that is an ok compromise for me personally.

3. Removing the wheel is extremely easy, no need to have a flathead to disconnect the cables / reconnect them. No need to worry about checking if i still have all 14 gears after putting back the cables. No need to re-tension, no need to calibrate / recalibrate.


4. Downside - Like the Rohloff, you need a special socket to tighten the rear cog. Thankfully it is a standard 38mm socket - and you can find it at a local hardware store.

5. Downside 2 - Swapping shells isnt as easy as it sounds. That part of the value is minimal, and it is not practical to do it every day.Takes anywhere between 15-30 minutes to swap. I can see myself doing this if I am switching bikes or switching wheelsets on the same bike (e.g. going from 3 inch tires to 2.2inch).

6. Downside 3 - There are limited rims with 28H drill pattern. We are working with Velocity to custom drill those.

7. Downside 4 - there is no 170mm or 177mm dropout version if you have a mid-fat dropout. Its not a hard part to make but 170mm isn't standard right now.

Comparing it to the Rohloff, all other things are very very similar - good efficiency, and overall riding experience is very comparable. It is the minor quibbles with the maintenance where Kindernay is better. It is a tad more expensive - so there is a trade off between value versus cost.

If you have a rohloff already, there is marginal gain. I wouldn't be able to make a case to switch. If you are in the market for a new bike, I think its worth going the Kindernay route (long term).

Edit- cleaned up some formatting / verbiage.

 

[onlineaddy]

28H? Is that gonna be strong enough?

 

[pushkar]

28H? Is that gonna be strong enough?

1. Kindernay advertises "symmetric wheel" (or symmetrically dished in lacing terms).
2. Smaller spoke length (relatively) (I feel) is another important factor for wheel strength.

I have been loading up my rig, and the wheel has taken a fair bit of beating so far without issues.

 

[onlineaddy]

I have been loading up my rig, and the wheel has taken a fair bit of beating so far without issues.

That’s good to know, Pushkar. Please continue to keep an eye on this during your testing. The superbike is, after all, a relatively heavy bike. Thanks.