Solar Powered Homes

[Zekeer]

So much wrong here.

I'll start off with the storage issue. I assumed in the figures I presented that wind generation only produced energy 15 percent of the time, and I assumed a well-connected power grid. Certainly you can't assume that it would not be windy at any given point of time all over the country? We also have operated wind turbines for many years and have good numbers on how often they generate electricity in the aggregate, and it is roughly 25 to 50 percent of the time. So a 15 percent scale back is actually very conservative.


The energy inputs for wind turbines and solar panels and batteries are nearly all electricity. Unless coal electrons are different from solar electrons (they aren't) it doesn't matter where the energy input comes from.



Battery costs per watt-hour are halving approximately every four years, and have done so for the last thirty years. Watt-hours per kilogram are also improving at a slower rate. There is no physics reason to believe that won't continue for some decades to come. Batteries have no moving parts except electrons and so are very amenable to being manufactured at scale in automated factories. So there is every reason to believe that even if batteries aren't economically feasible in some applications today, they will very likely be in the near future.

Again I note that halving in cost every four years implies that your costs per watt-hour will be less than 1% of today's in thirty years.

1. It has been well-established for over 100 years that CO2 levels in the atmosphere warm the planet, and on the average on time scales of millions of years or less higher CO2 levels are correlated with higher temperatures and vice versa.
2. We know that CO2 levels have increased dramatically since preindustrial times, and most dramatically in the last thirty years as many parts of the world industrialized.
3. We know from the isotope mix of atmospheric CO2 that recent increases of CO2 are 100 percent attributable to burning fossil fuels.
4. We know that 99 percent of the world's glaciers are receding. This is a worldwide phenomenon and the only explanation we have for it is increasing CO2 levels warming the planet.

Which one of those things are wrong? More than one has to be for it to be "made up nonsense".



Because all of those things can be recycled. And are in some cases but not yet all.

I'm going to make this calculation brutally simple and explain to you why fossil fuels are screwed in the short term, and likely are screwed in many cases today.

1. I'll start with an obvious but important observation: the marginal costs of operating solar or wind are far lower than fossil fuels or nuclear. There is no fuel requirements, personnel requirements for operating the facilities are far, far less, and there is far less maintenance. For all practical purposes marginal costs of generating wind are tiny and for solar are pretty close to zero.
2. Both wind and solar are making remarkable progress reducing costs. Solar power has halved in cost per watt approximately every four years for the last fifty years. There is no reason to believe that those cost trends can't continue for decades to come. There is no imaginable technological pathway for reducing the costs of fossil fuels or nuclear at a comparable velocity.
3. If you had ten billion dollars to invest in making electricity today you'd invest it in solar or wind. That's because you will start making electricity and selling it sooner (typically less than a year from plonking down money to selling electrons), that's because the cost of the plant is less so you can sell more watt-hours for your ten billion dollars, and also because your operating costs far lower. It is really a no brainer. In fact, it is such a no-brainer that a lot of older fossil fuel and nuclear plants are considered stranded assets because they can't sell electricity at competitive prices.
4. Finally, and to tie a few pieces together: one risk you run with building a nuclear or fossil fuel plant today is that you will be screwed fifteen or twenty years from now: it is very likely that newer PV solar plant backed up with batteries of comparable scale will generate electricity much cheaper than you can and you will not be able to compete, at all. Whereas since the marginal cost of your existing wind or solar plant is very small and you can compete and keep operating even if electricity is less expensive.

Yet look at what the Nuclear energy people say and the Gas/oil people say . Which is a totally different prospective . Also consider according to our govt earth has warmed 1.8 Degrees F since 1900 . 1/2 of that since 1970 . Consider this as well The world population has increased by almost 300 million people . That would contribute to some of that temp rise . Is the temp rising because of C02 emissions. According to the Epa it's decreased 7% since 1990 yet the climate is hotter : And since 2005 C02 emissions has decreased 20% . We were told in 2018 that we'd be seeing a steady increase by climate activists . Instead it's been a decline an average of 1.9% yearly . That sorta throws a Monkey wrench into Carbon Based emissions are warming things up. Since Emissions are decreasing and the temps are still rising .. How come ??
As I said earlier I have no issue with gradually reducing Carbons and increasing Green . But that isn't what they are doing . The Politian's who are getting Rich are claiming we have to get rid of Co2 because we only now have 10 years left . But the Science shows C02 isn't causing the temp increase . It all appears to be propaganda. After all before records were kept we have no idea what temps were 200 years ago and before .

It's not the Energy Source changes that are concerning . It's the Lie being put out there that emissions are the root cause . When the science is saying no it's not . Emission is steadily dropping every year. So we really don't know why there's a gradual warming .
I don't know how old you are -But I remember a documentary Leonard Nimoy narrated in I think the 1980's . That clearly stated C02 was sending us into an ice age . Industry's were polluting things . So all of that was worked on since the 1980's to lower pollution .

They want to eliminate using natural oil and gas reserves . Based on what ? A Lie ? Why do they want us on a grid that's already overloaded . A grid that an enemy could easily take us off line . And we have no way to fix ???

 

[scrambler]

We are clearly not using the same source of scientific information.
I will stick with the 95% of world scientists and meteorologists

Feel free to stick with the conspiracy theorists.

 

[Mulezen]

So much wrong here.

I'll start off with the storage issue. I assumed in the figures I presented that wind generation only produced energy 15 percent of the time, and I assumed a well-connected power grid. Certainly you can't assume that it would not be windy at any given point of time all over the country? We also have operated wind turbines for many years and have good numbers on how often they generate electricity in the aggregate, and it is roughly 25 to 50 percent of the time. So a 15 percent scale back is actually very conservative.


The energy inputs for wind turbines and solar panels and batteries are nearly all electricity. Unless coal electrons are different from solar electrons (they aren't) it doesn't matter where the energy input comes from.



Battery costs per watt-hour are halving approximately every four years, and have done so for the last thirty years. Watt-hours per kilogram are also improving at a slower rate. There is no physics reason to believe that won't continue for some decades to come. Batteries have no moving parts except electrons and so are very amenable to being manufactured at scale in automated factories. So there is every reason to believe that even if batteries aren't economically feasible in some applications today, they will very likely be in the near future.

Again I note that halving in cost every four years implies that your costs per watt-hour will be less than 1% of today's in thirty years.

1. It has been well-established for over 100 years that CO2 levels in the atmosphere warm the planet, and on the average on time scales of millions of years or less higher CO2 levels are correlated with higher temperatures and vice versa.
2. We know that CO2 levels have increased dramatically since preindustrial times, and most dramatically in the last thirty years as many parts of the world industrialized.
3. We know from the isotope mix of atmospheric CO2 that recent increases of CO2 are 100 percent attributable to burning fossil fuels.
4. We know that 99 percent of the world's glaciers are receding. This is a worldwide phenomenon and the only explanation we have for it is increasing CO2 levels warming the planet.

Which one of those things are wrong? More than one has to be for it to be "made up nonsense".



Because all of those things can be recycled. And are in some cases but not yet all.

I'm going to make this calculation brutally simple and explain to you why fossil fuels are screwed in the short term, and likely are screwed in many cases today.

1. I'll start with an obvious but important observation: the marginal costs of operating solar or wind are far lower than fossil fuels or nuclear. There is no fuel requirements, personnel requirements for operating the facilities are far, far less, and there is far less maintenance. For all practical purposes marginal costs of generating wind are tiny and for solar are pretty close to zero.
2. Both wind and solar are making remarkable progress reducing costs. Solar power has halved in cost per watt approximately every four years for the last fifty years. There is no reason to believe that those cost trends can't continue for decades to come. There is no imaginable technological pathway for reducing the costs of fossil fuels or nuclear at a comparable velocity.
3. If you had ten billion dollars to invest in making electricity today you'd invest it in solar or wind. That's because you will start making electricity and selling it sooner (typically less than a year from plonking down money to selling electrons), that's because the cost of the plant is less so you can sell more watt-hours for your ten billion dollars, and also because your operating costs far lower. It is really a no brainer. In fact, it is such a no-brainer that a lot of older fossil fuel and nuclear plants are considered stranded assets because they can't sell electricity at competitive prices.
4. Finally, and to tie a few pieces together: one risk you run with building a nuclear or fossil fuel plant today is that you will be screwed fifteen or twenty years from now: it is very likely that newer PV solar plant backed up with batteries of comparable scale will generate electricity much cheaper than you can and you will not be able to compete, at all. Whereas since the marginal cost of your existing wind or solar plant is very small and you can compete and keep operating even if electricity is less expensive.

You’re wasting your breath. I see articles almost every day about incremental improvements in solar, wind, storage, small scale nuclear And even in the software modeling. The regular incremental improvements are happening far more quickly than the evolution of ICE. Here is an article I saw yesterday

Contra-rotating floating turbines promise unprecedented scale and power

Norway's World Wide Wind has a radically different take on offshore wind power. These floating, vertical-axis wind turbines (VAWTs) feature two sets of blades, tuned to contra-rotate – and they promise more than double the output of today's biggest turbines.

newatlas.com

 

[Zekeer]

We are clearly not using the same source of scientific information.
I will stick with the 95% of world scientists and meteorologists

Feel free to stick with the conspiracy theorists.

I think I'd better stick with Threads Mr. Mikes frequents . He at least has common sense . 95% of scientists ?? Don't you mean the 95% that have an evolutionary worldview out of 150 Govt Funded Scientists ?? Yeah that's the Group. Besides I gave you the stats from the EPA . Are they not govt funded scientists ?? Seriously that's your whole rebuttal ?? You don't even understand what I'm saying . And calling stuff conspiracy is childish. Since 98% of what was called Conspiracy about Covid turns out was True . 100% of what was called conspiracy about Islam in American turns out is true .
Plus you aren't listening to scientists when you follow this green energy stuff . Your sources aren't Govt . They are companies with Salesmen and engineers trying to justify the 50 billion we gave their company of our tax dollars . Which isn't even what I am disputing . I never said green energy was a bad thing .

But it sure as hell isn't ready to take over for natural gas . Anyone who thinks that is , well lets be nice and say . Not understanding very well if at all .
You're making a comment that actually shows you didn't read anything in the thread . You disagree because your buddy here did .

Fact : We should see a reduction of C02 Emissions : We've spent billions and billions of dollars and subsidies for the purpose of reducing it and the planet has went up 1/2 of 1.8% Increase in 122 years ?? Despite falling emissions ?? SO emissions are 1/2 what they were 50 years ago and the temps still went up ?? Not due to emissions they didn't . Could it be almost 300 million bodies at an average 98.7 degrees ?? Aaah to some degree /

If the Climate activists really believe in Climate issues caused by C02 . WHy did they fly 400 Private Jets in Scotland for their annual CC conference . They didn't even share jets . Plus they rode stretch limos to the building it was held at. The leading activist Al Gore is so fat that when his hair piece blew off . He had to pay someone to retrieve it because he's to fat to bend over and pick it up. FAT off our money .. LOL And that's who you trust? The Obamers , Bidens Clintons Prince Pedo Charles etc // Good luck

 

[pmcdonald]

Setting aside the bloody nonsense of the climate cultural wars, listen to the dollars.

Here in Australia there is zero business appetite for new coal power plants (and even less for nuclear). Existing coal plants are being dramatically written off and decommission dates brought forward by years, to be replaced by massive battery storage. This despite a decade of zero Federal leadership on the issue. We're seeing a strong push for divestment in fossil fuel investments from several of our major superannuation funds as well.

We can argue fringe science till the cows come home but fact is business is abandoning fossil fuels rapidly because the market case just isn't there anymore. A hybrid solar/wind/battery plant can deliver power reliably and cheaper than coal. That's all the market cares about.

 

[rayray]

There are already exceptions, yes it is possible to make solar cells from more mundane material, whether it is worthwhile or not is the question, same with windmills, other than the environmental upset , Hydro seems to be pretty cost effective( after all it is deferred solar)

Hydro? We certainly can’t count on that. There are factions trying to force the removal of dams in Washington State. Fortunately, even our idiot governor is speaking up against it though. I guess that’s because his political career is already near its end anyway, so he’s not afraid to say what he’s really thinking.

Washington Dam Removal Would Cost Billions to Replace Related Services, Report Says

Four Snake River dams produce energy, enable commodity barging and provide reservoirs for irrigation.

www.enr.com

This next link probably deserves its its own post, but I’ll just leave it here. Yeah, let’s go with electric cars EXCLUSIVELY!

Californians Told Not to Charge Electric Cars Days After Gas Car Sales Ban

The California Air Resources Board recently approved a rule to require all new cars sold in California to be free of greenhouse gas emissions by 2035.

www.newsweek.com

 

[tomjasz]

Hydro? We certainly can’t count on that. There are factions trying to force the removal of dams in Washington State. Fortunately, even our idiot governor is speaking up against it though. I guess that’s because his political career is already near its end anyway, so he’s not afraid to say what he’s really thinking.

Washington Dam Removal Would Cost Billions to Replace Related Services, Report Says

Four Snake River dams produce energy, enable commodity barging and provide reservoirs for irrigation.

www.enr.com

This next link probably deserves its its own post, but I’ll just leave it here. Yeah, let’s go with electric cars EXCLUSIVELY!

Californians Told Not to Charge Electric Cars Days After Gas Car Sales Ban

The California Air Resources Board recently approved a rule to require all new cars sold in California to be free of greenhouse gas emissions by 2035.

www.newsweek.com

OFFS. We all know there needs to be more infrastructure. Yours is a silly argument.

 

[Zekeer]

Follow the money. A bit of warming is a good thing historically after a certain concentration the warming effects of CO2 get smaller, my skin tells Me the sun is more radiant than it used to be, is it possible that we cannot be told the whole story? sort of like the UAP fiasco?

I've read and watched many a video that seems to show that cloud seeding (A Real thing) is putting a chemical in the atmosphere that is slowly poisonings us. People claim it's conspiracy . LOL . When it's common knowledge they have been cloud seeding for years . They probably didn't know to begin with that this harms the atmosphere and basically burns us. But now they do know it they cover it up because it's to late .
After all look at Wildlife . We've lost over 70% of Land Sea and air creatures since 1977. Most of that is in the last 10 years . Or actually since around 2009 . This is no secret . Anyone can google mass extinction of Wildlife . Again they they cover up the likely idea that we are causing this ourselves . Instead they blame it on C02 ? Think about how silly it is to believe C02 is harming things . Every oxygen breathing creature on the planet exhales C02 . Every plant Tree weed or whatever absorbs the C02 and release the oxygen we need . When C02 levels get to high or higher the planet becomes greener . I learn that in Grade School .

 

[Gionnirocket]

Funny how these green guys whole debate tactic is to put you on ignore lol . It is remarkable how so many that appear to be fairly smart are so devoid of basic common sense . And definitely don't like to be challenged or corrected . They spout out impressive figures , until they are put in context along side everything else . It's a shame there can't be intelligent conversation with the other side . There used to be

Where you're mistaken is...
After what you've written so far, no one cares what you or your lobby have to say on the matter. It's all conspiracy nonsense and quite frankly pretty pathetic.
I don't debate with my vegetable garden and I (and others) will not with you.
Hopefully soon enough you and your kind will be in a small enough minority that we can tune you out all together.

 

[Zekeer]

I also remember 3rd grade and reading comprehension.
No one here* agrees with you.
And there's plenty of people in your corner so how do you know that you're not the sheep following the flawed facts blindly.
So if we are the ignorant, then it is with bliss.... So please move on as you're stinking up the place with your poop_pee talk (brought it to 3rd grade for you)

Because the facts are common sense . If you remember 3rd grade . How do you not remember that in science class we were taught very basic facts . Humans breath out C02 , plants , Trees , Grass etc . Absorb this C02 and release oxygen .
Green energy is no where near ready to be our life source for power . Putting us on the grid as they say also makes us vulnerable as hell . Something our people admit is a growing concern . Crazy Leaders like in Iran or N korea could shoot down a couple of satellites and then what ? They wouldn't even need to hit anything . The grid would go down , and not for just a few hours . It would be unrepairable .

Germany , France and basically most of Europe is finding that out right now . They are admitting without heat many will die this winter . Putin shut off the gas again . Those countries fell hook line and sinker for Green . save the planet with everything . Now they are admitting it's not working like they were promised .
The vast majority of batteries and solar panels come from where? China . Who themselves have done nothing to filter emissions . They are opening New and bigger coal plants . While the west has really brought emissions way down. America leads the way . Yet the west has fallen for this get rid of fossil fuels and lets go Green . It's destroying us . I don't honestly get how you guys don't see that . Seriously . Nothing I just said is wrong is it?

 

[rayray]

OFFS. We all know there needs to be more infrastructure. Yours is a silly argument.

Yeah, it’s pretty silly of me to think that we should have adequate infrastructure in place for current demand before ADDITIONAL demand is mandated. Meanwhile, oil and coal obviously aren’t options, groups are lobbying to destroy dams and resisting a move to nuclear, solar and wind aren’t efficient everywhere, so what is the solution? Remember, the game timer is set at 12.33 years. Go!

I’m not opposed to EV’s. I may even have an EV in my garage in the next couple of years. I just don’t care for unrealistic mandates.

 

[Solarcabin]

I have been off grid over 20 years now with just a 400 watt solar power system that runs my water pump, led lights, laptop, 12 volt fridge freezer, swamp cooler, micro washer and recharges lots of tools and gadgets.

This year I added another 400 watts and two 200Ah LIFEPO4 batteries so that I could recharge my ebike, run a second freezer, microwave and run the swamp cooler longer since it has been hotter than usual.

Prices are great for solar and you can get the 30% tax rebate for an installed system or DIY off grid system like mine and you might also have state rebates.

The average US homes needs a 7kw system if you are using gas heat or a heat pump but you don't have to run a whole house off solar and even a 400 watt - 1KW off grid system like mine will run all kinds of appliances and you can use that if you have a blackout and the grid goes down and to reduce your grid power costs all year.

These are my current systems and lots more videos on my channel for off grid DIY help.

 

[Zekeer]

Where you're mistaken is...
After what you've written so far, no one cares what you or your lobby have to say on the matter. It's all conspiracy nonsense and quite frankly pretty pathetic.
I don't debate with my vegetable garden and I (and others) will not with you.
Hopefully soon enough you and your kind will be in a small enough minority that we can tune you out all together.

You don't debate period . I get the impression you don't have the ability . So pretend to by being offensive . How is it conspiracy about Germany and France and the rest of Europe ? Did someone make a fake News Video ? u guys are funny

 

[rayray]

You don't debate period . I get the impression you don't have the ability . So pretend to by being offensive . How is it conspiracy about Germany and France and the rest of Europe ? Did someone make a fake News Video ? u guys are funny

What some don’t seem to understand is that little in life or nature is black-and-white (For example, scientists can’t explain why were there no named storms in August, for the first time in 25 years….wasn’t global warming supposed to create more than usual?), and listening to opinions from all sides is an important step toward a solution. Instead, they seem to think hurling insults is a win, and that people with different opinions than their own, or even those with questions, are evil. Against that mindset, your comments are of little value.

However, I’ll bet there are plenty of reasonable people reading this thread.

 

[Zekeer]

What some don’t seem to understand is that little in life or nature is black-and-white (For example, scientists can’t explain why were there no named storms in August, for the first time in 25 years….wasn’t global warming supposed to create more than usual?), and listening to opinions from all sides is an important step toward a solution. Instead, they seem to think hurling insults is a win, and that people with different opinions than their own, or even those with questions, are evil. Against that mindset, your comments are of little value.

However, I’ll bet there are plenty of reasonable people reading this thread.

Yeah I agree and it's the only reason I bother . Thanks

 

[Rossterman]

Living in calif the solar investment is a no brainer. My roce (return on capital employed) is 5.2 years at the current rate (which increases every year. The panels I bought have. 25 hr mfg warranty as well as 25 yr performance warranty. My pg&e bill went from $300-$600 a month to $30 a month after true up.

as to power outages the easiest solution is a service disconnect and portable gas powered generator connection to critical systems, well pump, fridege outlets, etc . Roll out the 6kw generator from the garage and you can run it on nat gas, propane, or gasoline for as long as you have fuel. The tesla powerwalls are a joke at $12k for 2 and you get 2 days of minimal service. The portable solar “generators” are as well as they don’t work in inclement weather or provide anywhere close to enough power to run a minimum needs. TBH you could likely build a much better lead/acid battery storage bank with 2x the capacity at 1/2 the cost of the tesla stuff.

 

[Solarcabin]

Hey Zekeer and rayray haven't you taken up enough space on this post?

I would really like to discuss solar homes instead of your opinions on climate science.

 

[teskow]

Because the facts are common sense . If you remember 3rd grade . How do you not remember that in science class we were taught very basic facts . Humans breath out C02 , plants , Trees , Grass etc . Absorb this C02 and release oxygen .
Green energy is no where near ready to be our life source for power . Putting us on the grid as they say also makes us vulnerable as hell . Something our people admit is a growing concern . Crazy Leaders like in Iran or N korea could shoot down a couple of satellites and then what ? They wouldn't even need to hit anything . The grid would go down , and not for just a few hours . It would be unrepairable .

Germany , France and basically most of Europe is finding that out right now . They are admitting without heat many will die this winter . Putin shut off the gas again . Those countries fell hook line and sinker for Green . save the planet with everything . Now they are admitting it's not working like they were promised .
The vast majority of batteries and solar panels come from where? China . Who themselves have done nothing to filter emissions . They are opening New and bigger coal plants . While the west has really brought emissions way down. America leads the way . Yet the west has fallen for this get rid of fossil fuels and lets go Green . It's destroying us . I don't honestly get how you guys don't see that . Seriously . Nothing I just said is wrong is it?

You are so wrong in so many ways one can't count them. Do you even know where France gets its power from?

 

[Solarcabin]

Living in calif the solar investment is a no brainer. My roce (return on capital employed) is 5.2 years at the current rate (which increases every year. The panels I bought have. 25 hr mfg warranty as well as 25 yr performance warranty. My pg&e bill went from $300-$600 a month to $30 a month after true up.

as to power outages the easiest solution is a service disconnect and portable gas powered generator connection to critical systems, well pump, fridege outlets, etc . Roll out the 6kw generator from the garage and you can run it on nat gas, propane, or gasoline for as long as you have fuel. The tesla powerwalls are a joke at $12k for 2 and you get 2 days of minimal service. The solar “generators” are as well as they don’t work in inclement weather or provide anywhere close to enough power to run a minimum needs. TBH you could likely build a much better lead/acid battery storage bank with 2x the capacity at 1/2 the cost of the tesla stuff.

Only problem with a fuel generator backup is costs and access of fuel in an emergency.

Texas blackout lasted 2 weeks and a portable fuel generator might at best get 15 hours and most get half that.

 

[Rossterman]

Potential is the key word . And at what cost ? From what little I have read on this . While it's renewable it's also quite inconsistent . The factories cost 10 times what a normal power plant would cost . It's very damaging to marine line . And the locations are limited . However research is a good thing . But they are funding this all with mainly middle class money . It's definitely limited to areas . In the meantime they are destroying the sources of income to fund these things . By taking away the middle class's means of employment .
That's my whole issue. This technology isn't a wow moment . Not enough to eliminate fuel use like they are doing .
From everything I have looked at . The Benefits of all this green energy don't outweigh the overall cost . Plus the goal is supposed to be to save the planet . Yet they appear to be destroying the life it supports along the way .
The real energy we should be working on is nuclear . It's by far the least expensive . We have the safe guards and technology . Very little can't be reused .
Yet they give the excuse that someone might use it to destroy . Doesn't that already exist? Seriously what's the difference of one big bomb verses 2 to destroy a whole nation ? Of the 3 lets say ways to supply energy . From what I see Nuclear is by far the best over all method .
The problem is that it doesn't make the Powers that be Money

After all an Al Gore couldn't become a Multi Millionaire by claiming the planet was going to explode . Like he has for the last 30 years .

Exactly! Our calif govenor is pushing eliminating gas powered vehicles in 10 years. Our infrastructure can’t even handle current non ev demands and rolling brownouts are the norm all summer in some areas. Additionally our cost of electricity is sky high (35-45 cents a kw!). Now, about 1/4 of the homes in my neighborhood have solar and export power to the grid helping ease shortages. There is now talk of raising the grid tie fee from $10 to $100. They already get the surplus electricity for damn near free (3 cents a kw) and make a ton reselling it. I suspect many will just disconnect and go off grid if the fee increase is enacted.
our state can’t handle 3% evs. Can you imagine the chaos with 20%? Smdh