Riding Mid Drive on only highest gear

[m@Robertson]

Has anyone actually had a mid drive motor melt?

Not personally but I have seen plenty of them. The term 'peanut buttering' the gears didn't get invented in this thread. It exists and is in common usage for a reason.

How To Ride a Mid Drive Ebike Without Breaking It

If you can ride a bicycle you already know how to ride a hub drive ebike. Not so a mid drive. Particularly a powerful one that can tear your chain apart. Fear not. The rules are simple.

talesontwowheels.com

 

[m@Robertson]

THe OP was about low RPM, not high RPM which in a ICE has different problems than overheating.

He wasn't citing the two as equivalent. He was trying to be gentle and explain something to someone who doesn't have the experience to know better.

Who says peak is just for a burst?

Saying that is emblematic of why he needed to make some kind of analogy. A 'peak' value as used in ebike parts specifications is a burst by its very nature.

There are two kinds of power ratings in controllers, BMS' and motors. 'peak' and 'continuous'. Continuous is what the motor, battery pack and controller can put out as a long term sustained value. 'Peak' is what it can handle short term. Usually that short term is one to five seconds, depending on the device.

I have experienced shutdowns when I took a sustained power demand and exceeded the length of time I was allowed to do that (thanks to not having a high enough 'continuous' rating on my BMS... 'Peak' was fine but I kept the load up for too long and the BMS shut down the system, which requires plugging into a charger to reset and repower the bike.

Trip the controller and you can just cycle the power at the scene to bring the bike back. Exceed the safe levels of output on a motor and there is no 3rd layer of protection. The motor coils fry (see example above in Post #24) or gears melt. Thats why the term 'peanut buttering' exists: Accumulated heat turns the internal nylon gears soft so they shred, which is actually a safety feature. The nylon gear is deliberately sacrificial so you kill the gear instead something deeper in the motor that isn't cheaply replaced.

Class 1/3 mid drives are designed to provide assistance. Properly designed they shouldn't be able to heat up enough to damage themselves and or they have over heat sensors to reduce power if needed.

In a perfect world, lots of things would be true. We don't live there.

 

[newts]

Not personally but I have seen plenty of them. The term 'peanut buttering' the gears didn't get invented in this thread. It exists and is in common usage for a reason.

How To Ride a Mid Drive Ebike Without Breaking It

If you can ride a bicycle you already know how to ride a hub drive ebike. Not so a mid drive. Particularly a powerful one that can tear your chain apart. Fear not. The rules are simple.

talesontwowheels.com

"Peanut buttering" is for nylon gears of early Bafang motors and mostly people overpowering them?

He wasn't citing the two as equivalent. He was trying to be gentle and explain something to someone who doesn't have the experience to know better.

Saying that is emblematic of why he needed to make some kind of analogy. A 'peak' value as used in ebike parts specifications is a burst by its very nature.

There are two kinds of power ratings in controllers, BMS' and motors. 'peak' and 'continuous'. Continuous is what the motor, battery pack and controller can put out as a long term sustained value. 'Peak' is what it can handle short term. Usually that short term is one to five seconds, depending on the device.

I have experienced shutdowns when I took a sustained power demand and exceeded the length of time I was allowed to do that (thanks to not having a high enough 'continuous' rating on my BMS... 'Peak' was fine but I kept the load up for too long and the BMS shut down the system, which requires plugging into a charger to reset and repower the bike.

Trip the controller and you can just cycle the power at the scene to bring the bike back. Exceed the safe levels of output on a motor and there is no 3rd layer of protection. The motor coils fry (see example above in Post #24) or gears melt. Thats why the term 'peanut buttering' exists: Accumulated heat turns the internal nylon gears soft so they shred, which is actually a safety feature. The nylon gear is deliberately sacrificial so you kill the gear instead something deeper in the motor that isn't cheaply replaced.

In a perfect world, lots of things would be true. We don't live there.

Peak was in relation to the assist setting and not a battery spec which is why I was challenging it. I am not trying to be difficult but if the advice is based on someone hearing about someone who over drove their Bafang 5 years ago it may not be relevant to someone with a Bosch or Brose motor from a reputable bike maker.

We buy the e bikes to get more performance and unless there's a reason on a specific bike not to use it at full capacity people should enjoy them any way they want. Running full boost will stress and wear out components quicker than babying it but it shouldn't burn anything out.

 

[PedalUma]

No, I've not melted one down. But, I never ride in high gear all the time either. Do you?

I have never melted one. Just killed the bearings from lugging because the gearing was too high on that bike. RPM is not the metaphor. Max power load is. No I do not always ride in high gear, I am constantly shifting. A good motor will give peek power when it is asked for, but only ask sparingly, that is if you love your bike.

 

[m@Robertson]

"Peanut buttering" is for nylon gears of early Bafang motors and mostly people overpowering them?

No not early Bafangs. The use of nylon or some sort of composite (PEEK in particular) inside is not uncommon. My factory-made, belt-driven, IGH bike had plastics inside. The manufacturer used a Bofeili motor although they didn't say that out loud. Those motors are known to die from hard pedaling. The clutch inside strips. And it only peaks at about 400w so its essentially an EU-legal 250w motor (strictly speaking this is not the motor stripping via high power from the inside, this is the rider applying more torque than the motor can handle - from the outside... but the imperfect-world rule holds nonetheless). I sold the bike on before anything permanent happened but I did experience the issue a couple of times.

Peak was in relation to the assist setting and not a battery spec which is why I was challenging it. I am not trying to be difficult but if the advice is based on someone hearing about someone who over drove their Bafang 5 years ago it may not be relevant to someone with a Bosch or Brose motor from a reputable bike maker.

And I'm not trying to be harsh either, but I will admit it does look that way now that I am re-reading it. You have to realize the advice you are giving is being given without knowing any of the qualifiers you are laying down. You have no idea what the OP is running. But your advice is exclusive to a specific class of ebike. If someone not running that kind of bike takes your broadly-stated advice to heart, not filling in the blanks themselves, then the consequences can be severe to them, their bike, their wallet etc. You are adding the 5-year-old Bafang stuff yourself. After the fact. Nobody else is or was above.

We buy the e bikes to get more performance and unless there's a reason on a specific bike not to use it at full capacity people should enjoy them any way they want. Running full boost will stress and wear out components quicker than babying it but it shouldn't burn anything out.

Again, these are aspirations. The real world shows us otherwise.

 

[AHicks]

"Peanut buttering" is for nylon gears of early Bafang motors and mostly people overpowering them?



Peak was in relation to the assist setting and not a battery spec which is why I was challenging it. I am not trying to be difficult but if the advice is based on someone hearing about someone who over drove their Bafang 5 years ago it may not be relevant to someone with a Bosch or Brose motor from a reputable bike maker.

We buy the e bikes to get more performance and unless there's a reason on a specific bike not to use it at full capacity people should enjoy them any way they want. Running full boost will stress and wear out components quicker than babying it but it shouldn't burn anything out.

You do realize our OP is talking a Bafang M600 right?

"a Bosch or Brose motor from a reputable bike maker."

Here we go. Let's #1 drag this off topic, #2 tell us that Bosch and Brose motors won't cook when ridden long distances when run at capacity. I believe that might be a stretch of the imagination...

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Here we go. Let's #1 drag this off topic, #2 tell us that Bosch and Brose motors won't cook when ridden long distances when run at capacity. I believe that might be a stretch of the imagination...

Okay, I won't argue that

 

[kevinmccune]

THe OP was about low RPM, not high RPM which in a ICE has different problems than overheating.

Who says peak is just for a burst?

Class 1/3 mid drives are designed to provide assistance. Properly designed they shouldn't be able to heat up enough to damage themselves and or they have over heat sensors to reduce power if needed.

A lot of People want a "cheap" Ecycle.

 

[AHicks]

Okay, I won't argue that

View attachment 141391

31 miles, granted lot of elevation changes, and it took 3 hours. So what? Is that not an average of 10mph? Show me something like that's much flatter, and run at 20mph while pulling 600w. THEN you have something relevant to this discussion.

 

[username00101]

I'm using a BAFANG M600 mid drive motor. I run it on mostly flat paved roads. But there's some long hills here.

It's nearing on impossible for me to get up the big long steep hill without hitting 600-800 watts for 5 minutes or so, or however long it takes me to get to the top.

 

[tomjasz]

I'm using a BAFANG M600 mid drive motor. I run it on mostly flat paved roads. But there's some long hills here.

It's nearing on impossible for me to get up the big long steep hill without hitting 600-800 watts for 5 minutes or so, or however long it takes me to get to the top.

You’re riding well below capable peak. No problem there.

”The wattage you see on the meter has nothing to do with the motor rating. A motor rating is just a number the person that rated it decided to rate it at, and often has little to do with what it is capable of, and nothing at all to do with how much power it is actually taking to operate at any instant in time..”

 

[Gionnirocket]

I'm using a BAFANG M600 mid drive motor. I run it on mostly flat paved roads. But there's some long hills here.

It's nearing on impossible for me to get up the big long steep hill without hitting 600-800 watts for 5 minutes or so, or however long it takes me to get to the top.

When you see higher sustained Watts like on a long hill, shift to a lower gear and pedal faster as you would on a traditional bike.
After 3 pages.. Not sure why you are still struggling with this. . .

 

[username00101]

When you see higher sustained Watts like on a long hill, shift to a lower gear and pedal faster as you would on a traditional bike.

What about a coolant device that runs water around the motor to cool it down like they have for most other electric vehicles?

 

[Gionnirocket]

When you see higher sustained Watts like on a long hill, shift to a lower gear and pedal faster as you would on a traditional bike.

What about a coolant device that runs water around the motor to cool it down like they have for most other electric vehicles?

In a word No.
Just use it as it is intended.
Maybe an electric moped might be a better fit for your needs

 

[username00101]

In a word No.
Just use it as it is intended.
Maybe an electric moped might be a better fit for your needs

Actually you are mistaken. Coolant systems for E-bikes are being explored because there's a need.

For example:

Falco patents liquid-cooled electric bicycle motor, opening possibilities

The enemy of electric vehicle motors is heat, regardless of whether we’re talking about electric cars or electric bikes. And...

electrek.co

 

[AHicks]

I'm using a BAFANG M600 mid drive motor. I run it on mostly flat paved roads. But there's some long hills here.

It's nearing on impossible for me to get up the big long steep hill without hitting 600-800 watts for 5 minutes or so, or however long it takes me to get to the top.

IMHO, when you start pulling 600-800w, it's time to downshift. That will lower the watts you're pulling. I know that's contrary to your thinking, but is maintaining your speed during this climb really THAT important?

No cooling device available that I know of. Remember, most of the motor is buried in the case.

 

[AHicks]

Actually you are mistaken. Coolant systems for E-bikes are being explored because there's a need.

For example:

Falco patents liquid-cooled electric bicycle motor, opening possibilities

The enemy of electric vehicle motors is heat, regardless of whether we’re talking about electric cars or electric bikes. And...

electrek.co

This isn't likely going to help you any time soon. There's a LOT of development work going on that can be directly related to e-bikes. This industry is FAR FAR away from being matured to the point cars and motorcycles are.....

 

[Mr. Coffee]

That is a lot of weight, cost, and complexity that you are adding to a bike just so you don't have to pedal at a higher cadence.

 

[rich c]

THe OP was about low RPM, not high RPM which in a ICE has different problems than overheating.

Who says peak is just for a burst?

Class 1/3 mid drives are designed to provide assistance. Properly designed they shouldn't be able to heat up enough to damage themselves and or they have over heat sensors to reduce power if needed.

Engineers can't imagine every situation that the general public can do to a product. I was an engineer at Caterpillar. No matter what we did, some owner could still destroy parts by some method. One customer kept destroying the bucket linkage on his loader. A site visit revealed that operators were catching boulders that bulldozers were shoving off the cliff.

 

[IOUZIP]

When riding my mid drive E bike, I find myself riding only on the highest gear when on flat surfaces. The difference being what level of peddle assist I'm on. I like this, because it has a low cadence. I dislike high RPM riding. With PAS1, and the highest gear, I can reliably stay above 20 miles per hour on flat surfaces. Without spinning too fast.

But I've been told that it's bad for the motor to stay constantly on the highest gear like this on flat surfaces. I was told that "lugging" is bad. Here's when I downshift: Only when it's a big hill, and it's obvious that things are going to get hard, will I downshift. But 90% of the rest of the time, I ride at the highest gear setting, on PAS1 so I keep my cadence down.

I find this easier just focusing on the assist level and not the gears. I do know that it's bad to not downshift before going from a dead stop/start.

So if this practice is bad. Should I never use the highest gear, unless I'm heading downhill or have very high cadence?

So give it to me straight.

Thanks.

I have the Luna X1 and X2 ebikes with Bafang M600 motor. I would say use the throttle it's good to 20mph but in the highest gear 11 tooth it is really hard on the motor to start from a standstill. I have done that before and it really puts a strain on the whole drivetrain. Start around mid gear then once you are upto speed shift as needed. If you don't want to pedal so fast then a rear Bafang hub motor is a better choice ebike. Most rear Bafang hub ebikes are all cadence based with throttles.