Riding Mid Drive on only highest gear

[tomjasz]

Prove me wrong. I have a Bosch performance line level 3. Are people burning these up for pedaling too slow? Is this happening on any other major brand bikes? Specialized?

Oh wait, you have one bike, one maker and you speak for the market? Dude…

 

[newts]

Oh wait, you have one bike, one maker and you speak for the market? Dude…

You have no facts or arguments just insults.

Sure my personal experience is only 2 brands of Class 3 bikes and 2 years of commuting and running TURBO the entire way at whatever cadence I feel like at the moment. For this question I have also looked at other forums and experiences and even the mountain bikers who torture their bikes don't seem to be melting mid drives. I read the Bosch Performance line and Brose manuals to look for guidance about this and couldn't find any admonishment about pedaling too slow will damage the motor or your warranty. What have you done?

Most of come here to share experiences and learn. If you are here just to attack to people and add nothing of value I would ask you to stop. Read more and talk less until you can behave nicely with the other adults.

 

[AHicks]

You have no facts or arguments just insults.

Sure my personal experience is only 2 brands of Class 3 bikes and 2 years of commuting and running TURBO the entire way at whatever cadence I feel like at the moment. For this question I have also looked at other forums and experiences and even the mountain bikers who torture their bikes don't seem to be melting mid drives. I read the Bosch Performance line and Brose manuals to look for guidance about this and couldn't find any admonishment about pedaling too slow will damage the motor or your warranty. What have you done?

Most of come here to share experiences and learn. If you are here just to attack to people and add nothing of value I would ask you to stop. Read more and talk less until you can behave nicely with the other adults.

If I can propose a truce before this gets too out of hand? I'm pretty sure Tom would agree to a cease fire on his insults if YOU would agree that your experience ("only 2 brands of Class 3 bikes and 2 years of commuting and running TURBO the entire way at whatever cadence I feel like at the moment") may not be the same as everyone else's when replying to a post as you did above. (That may be true for that Bafang motor but I haven't seen anything to suggest it is true for all bikes. I stand by my original statement that the better designed bikes today you can just ride them how you want to.) Issue there being there are a few of us that know better.....

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

It's not a conspiracy... it's more that you are clueless on how these things are designed to be operated.
It's a Pedal Assist Motor
This means that you are to input human power and ride it as a traditional bike and the motor is to enhance your input.
What you want is called an electric moped/scooter.

This. 1000%. End of discussion. Nothing else need more be said about a ridiculous topic brought up by the OP bicyclist who has no clue about why there is a cassette rear set of gears with a particular set amount of gear teeth on each cog. No clue at all. Probably never figured that when shifting down to a lower gear on a hill or steep grade results in easier pedaling on his behalf, albeit at a higher pedal cadence.

With that in mind, it's probably never occured to the OP why his/her vehicle always starts from a standing stop in 1st gear. Not 5th.

Good grief.

 

[AHicks]

I thought the OP's question not that bad. Clearly a rookie looking for a better understanding? Are we not here to assist with stuff like this? What's amazing is the range of advice being tossed about.

I think, with a couple hundred miles under his belt, he'll have built an "experience database" where he'll be able to build his own priorities/best practices and be good to go.

And I would emphasize that comparing elec. motor vs. IC engine low rpm performance is going to bite you in the butt.....

 

[tomjasz]

You have no facts or arguments just insults.

And you have a one bike argument. Ride on, enjoy, I’ve no need to prove anything. Especially when someone makes a declaration that flies in the face of real world experience. All motors have operational parameters. I don’t get how so many Boscholites are so damned evangelical. I freely admit and accept they are well designed, but they actually bore me and to often the owners are boorish.

From Bosch manual,
”Interaction of the eBike System with the Bicycle Gears
The bicycle gears should be used as with a normal bicycle, even with eBike motor assistance (please observe the operat- ing instructions of your eBike).”

Why do we think Bosch spells out proper use of gears?

 

[tomjasz]

I thought the OP's question not that bad. Clearly a rookie looking for a better understanding? Are we not here to assist with stuff like this? What's amazing is the range of advice being tossed about.

I think, with a couple hundred miles under his belt, he'll have built an "experience database" where he'll be able to build his own priorities/best practices and be good to go.

And I would emphasize that comparing elec. motor vs. IC engine low rpm performance is going to bite you in the butt.....

I think panties get knotted when respondents get supercilious and just plain silly feedback. New Members Come for advice and don’t really know who is responding. I get that. But when the poster looking for help starts throwing out ideas cherry picked from cursory readings, or poking respondents to make a case and prove to them their ideas based on very little experience are gospel…

I exchanged emails texts, and phone calls with dozens of that sort in 7 years of support, and frankly askholes wore me out.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I thought the OP's question not that bad. Clearly a rookie looking for a better understanding? Are we not here to assist with stuff like this? What's amazing is the range of advice being tossed about.

I think, with a couple hundred miles under his belt, he'll have built an "experience database" where he'll be able to build his own priorities/best practices and be good to go.

And I would emphasize that comparing elec. motor vs. IC engine low rpm performance is going to bite you in the butt.....

The comparison is by design not propulsion method
A ic car has a transmission for a reason as does an ebicycle...
But I guess no ebike manufacturer has your insight.... or maybe it is conspiracy... think about it

 

[m@Robertson]

... So to summarize: For the Bafang M600 motor:
1) The only way to know if the motor is stressed is to look at the output watts.
2) Never go above the 600 watt capacity of the motor for more than a second or two
3) The peak 1200 watts is just an advertisement to sell the motor. not a wattage that should ever be used
4) Shift gears and get watts down below 600w
5) E bike motors aren't capable of running at their rated wattage for long rides. And definitely cannot run at their peak watts.
6) sustained top speed isn't going to be attainable for most people because the motors fail at that range unless there's very high cadence.

Pretty much none of this is true. I don't think I saw anyone say anything like this but I may have missed something in this now-5-pages thread that should have ended after a couple of replies.

All of this 600w focus is completely incorrect. I know of plenty of M600 motors that happily exceed - by a great margin - the 600w limit. This includes 2500w examples with modified controllers whose only modification is a stronger internal main gear. But those 2500w riders don't do stupid stuff, to put it bluntly. If they did, they'd face nearly immediate and catastrophic consequences.

You are missing the point of why this is a problem. You are using the bike wrong. You are trying to force the motor to accept the use of gearing that would never be possible on an unpowered bike and, with a powerful motor in the mix, this abuse naturally stresses the living s*it out of the chain, the cogs and the chainring. That abuse will also cause increased wear on these parts, and possible complete failure. At the very least it will accelerate their demise. In addition to the suffering you are visiting on your mechanical drivetrain, ANY motor subjected to this will convert any electrical input that does not result in forward motion into heat. Increased heat has all manner of negative consequences.

Everything negative can be eliminated by riding the ebike properly. Let the motor spin and watch it hold 1500 rpms watts happily. Including going up hills at full throttle. Just use the gears for their intended purpose.

That may be true for that Bafang motor but I haven't seen anything to suggest it is true for all bikes. I stand by my original statement that the better designed bikes today you can just ride them how you want to.

I think we've covered this ground before. The principles are universal, as described for what must be the 50th time in this thread again above. Your difference is solely in the amount of power running through the drivetrain. If your bike averages what some would call a meager 250w, with occasional peaks in the 600-750w range (which is typical of EU-spec assist bikes), then the motor's lack of strength significantly limits the damage that can be done.

But it also limits its utility. Whether that is acceptable to you or not is your affair and THAT is the only place where opinion counts here.

 

[m@Robertson]

From Bosch manual,
”Interaction of the eBike System with the Bicycle Gears
The bicycle gears should be used as with a normal bicycle, even with eBike motor assistance (please observe the operat- ing instructions of your eBike).”

As I said above... The principles are universal.

 

[AHicks]

The comparison is by design not propulsion method
A ic car has a transmission for a reason as does an ebicycle...
But I guess no ebike manufacturer has your insight.... or maybe it is conspiracy... think about it

I've maintained for quite a while that many of the bigger motor powered e-bikes could get away with half of the gears they come with and still be ridden efficiently. 5 or 6 gears would be plenty for me. I think the M600, with it's something just over 100nm on tap, fit's in that larger category.

And I get how important cadence is to some folks. Not going there. I'm talking only about the bike's ability to be ridden efficiently....

All those gears are there on an e-bike, IMHO, because that's what a lot of people are used to seeing on a bike. One up manship might be in play too (my bike's got more gears?).

An I/C car has a transmission because there's -0- torque available at low rpm. An e-car takes off from a light in the SAME gear it cruises at while running at freeway speeds....

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

I thought the OP's question not that bad. Clearly a rookie looking for a better understanding? Are we not here to assist with stuff like this? What's amazing is the range of advice being tossed about.

I think, with a couple hundred miles under his belt, he'll have built an "experience database" where he'll be able to build his own priorities/best practices and be good to go.

And I would emphasize that comparing elec. motor vs. IC engine low rpm performance is going to bite you in the butt.....

Fair questions, Al. But I want to believe as adults, we all come here with a basic understanding about how the human propelled bicycle works. (that assumption is more likely a critical error on my part!) Not so much about adjusting a derailleur, but more a basic understanding that if I shift the rear cassette to the biggest gear, I can climb a steep grade easier than if I were to leave it on the smallest sprockets. Basic, elementary stuff. It's easy enough to link a Park Tools video on derailleur adjustments (and I am happy to do that and have done that often, here); harder to get into the mind of someone who thinks these little motors are a Ron Popeil-Set It And Forget It appliance....

And @Gionnirocket really nailed the crux of the matter with the OP's question: even with a pedal-assist motor, in the end, these are still bicycles. And that every rule that applies to achieving XX inches per front chain ring revolution (using that rear derailleur or IGH), still applies here, whether the motor is shut off or if it is in the maximum power output setting. And that beyond that, the OP might want a direct-drive electric scooter or maybe a Harley Davidson LiveWire or a Sur-Ron.

 

[AHicks]

Fair questions, Al. But I want to believe as adults, we all come here with a basic understanding about how the human propelled bicycle works. (that assumption is more likely a critical error on my part!) Not so much about adjusting a derailleur, but more a basic understanding that if I shift the rear cassette to the biggest gear, I can climb a steep grade easier than if I were to leave it on the smallest sprockets. Basic, elementary stuff. It's easy enough to link a Park Tools video on derailleur adjustments (and I am happy to do that and have done that often, here); harder to get into the mind of someone who thinks these little motors are a Ron Popeil-Set It And Forget It appliance....

And @Gionnirocket really nailed the crux of the matter with the OP's question: even with a pedal-assist motor, in the end, these are still bicycles. And that every rule that applies to achieving XX inches per front chain ring revolution (using that rear derailleur or IGH), still applies here, whether the motor is shut off or if it is in the maximum power output setting. And that beyond that, the OP might want a direct-drive electric scooter or maybe a Harley Davidson LiveWire or a Sur-Ron.

On the bold -

I'm not going to disagree with a word you've written. I'd just like to add that not all have the same priorities, reasons for riding, or degree of fitness. Assuming priorities similar to our own is pretty understandable, it just that's not always the case?

I'm good with the idea he's a rookie out on his new bike and asking questions to better understand how it works.....

 

[Rexlion]

When I'm riding, my feeling is that if I'm seeing much more than 400W from my motor I am going to be in a lower gear and helping the motor with more leg-supplied torque. It just makes sense to me to do it that way. So what if I'm going slower, big deal, it's a bike ride not the Daytona 500.

Most of the time on fairly level riding surfaces I'm only seeing 150W or less on the screen. Slow cadence shouldn't hurt the motor at that level.

 

[Roamers]

Does anyone know if there is a difference in RPM range between a mid drive and a hub drive motor?

I know there is a difference in rpm range between an ICE and EV motor that eliminates the need for a multispeed transmission in an EV.

 

[AHicks]

Does anyone know if there is a difference in RPM range between a mid drive and a hub drive motor?

I know there is a difference in rpm range between an ICE and EV motor that eliminates the need for a multispeed transmission in an EV.

The hub drive is going to be working through it's 5:1 gears full time, regardless of what gear the bike is in. The mid drive is working through the gear you've set it in, with ratios that can vary quite a bit. RPM range for either starts at 0, just like an electric car.....

 

[PedalUma]

People with under-tuned (dud) off the shelf bikes have more leeway than people with tuned bikes for optimized performance. With the good bikes 'turbo' is for rare use when it is needed. When I had my little turbo Volvo I set the boost pressure at the gate very high and seldom used it. But it was there for when I needed it. The same with my bikes. I can set them up anyway I want.

 

[tomjasz]

My one speed mac step through scratch build does just fine as a one speed, 42T X 20T around town with pas or throttle when to pooped to pop. If I’ve learned anything here it’s we’re all eBike fans. I’m often critical of factory direct bikes, not because they’re all bad but because buyers are often clueless and taken advantage of by som3 sellers and refuse to own their choice. I’m also critical of Sur Ron and their ilk no5 because they’re bad but because I have a nagging feeling that they have brought on the nanny state. i despise the fact I can own a 120mph cage and be trusted to use common sense but I’m hobbled if my ebike can potentially propel me over 30mph. IMO unfair selective enforcement. I sold my class three and faster builds in favor of 20mph limited eBikes. But I have no high ground. I’m finding more and more I just like eBikes and nit picking choices is, well, dumber than snot.

go for a ride. It’s mind clearing.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

People with under-tuned (dud) off the shelf bikes have more leeway than people with tuned bikes for optimized performance. With the good bikes 'turbo' is for rare use when it is needed. When I had my little turbo Volvo I set the boost pressure at the gate very high and seldom used it. But it was there for when I needed it. The same with my bikes. I can set them up anyway I want.

I guess I'm the exception to that rule. Since April, 2017, I've been exclusively riding my Haibike Full FatSix with it's Yamaha PW drive set in the High power position. There have been very few times when I haven't and they've always involved some kind of need for conserving battery power; such as in one particular ride of 92 miles, using just my original 400wh battery.

Without High power, the bike becomes any other fat tired bicycle: heavy, ponderous, slow to get up to speed. With High power, that slug of a fatty bike becomes transformed.

But even so, I use High power with an eye towards economy. Lots and lots of up and down shifting so I can maintain a pedal cadence of 75-90 RPM; absolutely no beating on the drive or chain components by lugging the beast in a higher gear. With me, it was always about spinning the pedals lightly, meeting the road conditions before me by shifting up or down.

And it was always fun and gratifying to squeeze the maximum miles out of a single battery charge, while maintaining that High power setting. "Hypermiling-FatEBike style", if you will!

 

[AHicks]

I guess I'm the exception to that rule. Since April, 2017, I've been exclusively riding my Haibike Full FatSix with it's Yamaha PW drive set in the High power position. There have been very few times when I haven't and they've always involved some kind of need for conserving battery power; such as in one particular ride of 92 miles, using just my original 400wh battery.

Without High power, the bike becomes any other fat tired bicycle: heavy, ponderous, slow to get up to speed. With High power, that slug of a fatty bike becomes transformed.

But even so, I use High power with an eye towards economy. Lots and lots of up and down shifting so I can maintain a pedal cadence of 75-90 RPM; absolutely no beating on the drive or chain components by lugging the beast in a higher gear. With me, it was always about spinning the pedals lightly, meeting the road conditions before me by shifting up or down.

And it was always fun and gratifying to squeeze the maximum miles out of a single battery charge, while maintaining that High power setting. "Hypermiling-FatEBike style", if you will!

Similar priority here (maximizing the miles per charge), but I have a WAY different take on what works best for ME. I use the lowest amount of power possible to maintain my chosen cadence at my chosen speed, usually PAS 1 (of 5) and 10-14mph. If I'm feeling strained, or just flat pooped, that when PAS 2 is used. Rarely will I need to go higher than that.

I do get there's very likely a big difference in our level of fitness, and almost surely your chosen cadence is going to be higher than anything I would be able to maintain. Then there's the big difference in the rolling resistance between our chosen bike styles. But good lord, 92 miles? That's pretty much double the number I get when out on any of mine, while using a smaller battery..... Pretty impressive Mike! -Al