New Jersey Would Be Foolish To Require E-Bike Insurance & Registration
- Thread starter rbeckert
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mrgold35
Well-Known Member
I just don't get it? No issue purchasing a $2000 pedal bike I can ride +20 mph; but, I need pay a fees/register/insurance for a $2000 Class I/II ebike I can ride up to 20 mph. Seems like a better solution is to make it desirable to ride (e)bikes, improve infrastructure for safe biking, and make it more restrictive for vehicles to encourage public transportation and (e)bike riding in certain areas.
I haven't looked too closely; but, I don't think European or Asian countries on average are punishing bike riders compared to carving out infrastructure for them to coexist?
I haven't looked too closely; but, I don't think European or Asian countries on average are punishing bike riders compared to carving out infrastructure for them to coexist?
harryS
Well-Known Member
I believe this is the model in the UK for the ebikes. with throttles. The 250W, 15 mph pedelecs are left alone. Higher power plus throttle means a license and registration. Yikes. Something similar in Germany and France too.The problem with Europe is the basic Class 1 is only a 15 mph bike,
Cook County Forest preserve paths, which encircle the Chicago area are also 15 mph for all bikes. That does seem a bit slow and would require braking on hills.
Cook County Forest preserve paths, which encircle the Chicago area are also 15 mph for all bikes. That does seem a bit slow and would require braking on hills.
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
Except for my years away from this god-forsaken state to do military service, I am a long time resident of NJ. Trust me when I write that it still remains the worst, most heavily tax-burdened state out of all 50 states. And believe me, should this thing get passed into law (I think it will. These suits in the state capital have done this on the sly, with no input at all from cyclists, cycling coalitions, bike shops, no one), you can bet the house that the nearby blue and purple states surrounding NJ will follow suit.
Looking at the proposed law, it's going to cost each ebike owner here 8 dollars a year to register your bike with the state. No figures are in yet for how much liability insurance will be because the industry hasn't even gotten up to speed yet about addressing such need for insurance.
That's easy money for Trenton to rake in; cause law abiding dweebs like myself don't want to rock the boat. So we submit. 8 dollar registration fees going up to 15 next year do to "administration costs rising"? F you, pay me. Yeah, but I don't ride my ebike beyond 20 mph cause I just use it to get out and maybe enjoy a day of riding... F you, pay me. (Goodfellas reference, folks).
Meanwhile, last fall, at the nearby Burlington County run and maintained Crystal Lake Park Walk and Bike Trail, I made it a point to talk to a Park Ranger who was there in order to close the gates for that evening. My topic of conversation was what to do about a group of teen motorcycle and minibike riders who have been using the nearby Kinkora Trail for over 2 plus years, with absolutely no repercussions on their part with their motorbikes going up and down the trail, dog-walkers, hikers and cyclists, be damned. No confiscation, no tickets. Not even a stop by these County Park Rangers. My answer?
"There's nothing we can do, we don't even have powers of arrest or confiscation. You can contact the local police who have jurisdiction, but good luck in that."
If you are a resident of New Jermany, I mean, New Jersey, please take the time to fill out and send in the following letter drafted up by the Bicycle Coalition of Philadelphia. It will be sent to your standing state senator. Myself, I think it's a done deal with these politicians; they see this is going to be a quick, easy money grab, but it's worth a shot:
Link: https://bicyclecoalition.secure.nonprofitsoapbox.com/component/sbxactions/101
Here's a link to the Coalition's article on this money making scam: https://bicyclecoalition.org/take-action-ebikes/
Thanks for your consideration,
Mike
Looking at the proposed law, it's going to cost each ebike owner here 8 dollars a year to register your bike with the state. No figures are in yet for how much liability insurance will be because the industry hasn't even gotten up to speed yet about addressing such need for insurance.
That's easy money for Trenton to rake in; cause law abiding dweebs like myself don't want to rock the boat. So we submit. 8 dollar registration fees going up to 15 next year do to "administration costs rising"? F you, pay me. Yeah, but I don't ride my ebike beyond 20 mph cause I just use it to get out and maybe enjoy a day of riding... F you, pay me. (Goodfellas reference, folks).
Meanwhile, last fall, at the nearby Burlington County run and maintained Crystal Lake Park Walk and Bike Trail, I made it a point to talk to a Park Ranger who was there in order to close the gates for that evening. My topic of conversation was what to do about a group of teen motorcycle and minibike riders who have been using the nearby Kinkora Trail for over 2 plus years, with absolutely no repercussions on their part with their motorbikes going up and down the trail, dog-walkers, hikers and cyclists, be damned. No confiscation, no tickets. Not even a stop by these County Park Rangers. My answer?
"There's nothing we can do, we don't even have powers of arrest or confiscation. You can contact the local police who have jurisdiction, but good luck in that."
If you are a resident of New Jermany, I mean, New Jersey, please take the time to fill out and send in the following letter drafted up by the Bicycle Coalition of Philadelphia. It will be sent to your standing state senator. Myself, I think it's a done deal with these politicians; they see this is going to be a quick, easy money grab, but it's worth a shot:
Link: https://bicyclecoalition.secure.nonprofitsoapbox.com/component/sbxactions/101
Here's a link to the Coalition's article on this money making scam: https://bicyclecoalition.org/take-action-ebikes/
Thanks for your consideration,
Mike
Who is going to actually enforce this policy if it goes into effect? So many people drive cars with no insurance as it is. In my state, Virginia, our DMV doesn't bother to verify insurance-and it's required. And if you get caught they don't even impound the vehicle, send you on your way with a ticket. I also think this ebike insurance is really a hidden tax. If you have to pay insurance on a ebike property tax will be next.
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
And, concluding, just my two cents:
I found this forum and Court's video reviews back in late 2016 or so. I loved my Specialized Fatboy fat bike, but his review of the new 2016 Felt Outfitter and 2016 Haibike FatSix caught my eye to the possibilities of going long distance on bikes like this and not coming out of it feeling like death warmed over for 2-3 days afterwards. And so, I was fortunate to find a buy a 2016 Haibike Full FatSix and it completely changed the way I felt about my bicycles. The funny thing, with all of this "power", I still managed to average not much more than what I did with my analogue bikes.
But then came the high powered things from China. Then, the motorized scooters. Then, the throttles. Then, the stories of trail walkers and sidewalk pedestrians getting run down by ignorant ebikers and scooter riders. We stood by and watched as public trails paid for and maintained by our very own tax dollars were banned from us ever using them. The NYC food and service couriers have done much to give all ebikers a bad name, with their boorish behavior while riding their bikes at high speed to their destinations. In our little hobby, the bad behavior of some gives a bad name to all of us. Then, in places like NYC, out of control battery fires caused by disreputable battery builders and rogue "service centers" has resulted in some spectacular and tragic fires.
We seem to be right now in a time, where ebikes are the target and are under fire, by local, state and federal jurisdictions. The small gains made in having these bikes recognized in recent years have seemed to start falling by the wayside.
Kinda had a feeling that the high powered group would create a heavy price to be paid by the people like you and me who just want to get around on their 250 watt nominal powered ebikes......
I found this forum and Court's video reviews back in late 2016 or so. I loved my Specialized Fatboy fat bike, but his review of the new 2016 Felt Outfitter and 2016 Haibike FatSix caught my eye to the possibilities of going long distance on bikes like this and not coming out of it feeling like death warmed over for 2-3 days afterwards. And so, I was fortunate to find a buy a 2016 Haibike Full FatSix and it completely changed the way I felt about my bicycles. The funny thing, with all of this "power", I still managed to average not much more than what I did with my analogue bikes.
But then came the high powered things from China. Then, the motorized scooters. Then, the throttles. Then, the stories of trail walkers and sidewalk pedestrians getting run down by ignorant ebikers and scooter riders. We stood by and watched as public trails paid for and maintained by our very own tax dollars were banned from us ever using them. The NYC food and service couriers have done much to give all ebikers a bad name, with their boorish behavior while riding their bikes at high speed to their destinations. In our little hobby, the bad behavior of some gives a bad name to all of us. Then, in places like NYC, out of control battery fires caused by disreputable battery builders and rogue "service centers" has resulted in some spectacular and tragic fires.
We seem to be right now in a time, where ebikes are the target and are under fire, by local, state and federal jurisdictions. The small gains made in having these bikes recognized in recent years have seemed to start falling by the wayside.
Kinda had a feeling that the high powered group would create a heavy price to be paid by the people like you and me who just want to get around on their 250 watt nominal powered ebikes......
Chargeride
Well-Known Member
there's a weird UK clause for early official ebikes that had throttles, they can still be used legally as a pedal assist classification.
If they eventually allow scooters, then the next step will be bike,scooter hybrids, I'm expecting more complicated rules in the F1 ballpark to ensure legality.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
I think the world of e-bikes has changed since I first discovered them in 2016. And I'm not really happy with the changes:
- We are seeing mass-market e-bikes with very questionable safety
- We are seeing very popular unrestricted e-bikes which are not street legal and are basically electric motorcycles
- We are seeing an epidemic of e-bike battery fires
- We are seeing e-bikes, which were never intended or designed for children, become very popular with children in some communities
Rather than have a blanket opposition to any and all regulation it would be wiser, at this time, to be adults and work with public officials to come up with reasonable rules and regulations that can both address community concerns and let reasonable people (not reckless yahoos) ride their e-bikes in peace.
I'll note that bicycle licenses were common and quite popular during an earlier era in North America. So maybe they need to be brought back just to make sure that e-bikes on the road are safe and street legal.
The whole battery safety issue needs to be sorted out in some reasonable way.
It seems a no-brainer for me that children under the age of 16 should not be allowed to use e-bikes, except perhaps under restricted conditions and the supervision of responsible adults.
There are lots of pathways to provide liability insurance for e-bike owners at reasonable cost. Just because that product doesn't exist currently doesn't mean that you can't create it. One way to do this is to have "bicycle clubs" that provide blanket liability insurance to all of their members, and as part of that train members in the safe and legal operation of their e-bikes.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
More context on the history of bicycle licenses:
Our state still has the licence decals. It's mainly for theft recovery as its not enforced/required but the local police station will provide the decal for a small fee. I went to get a licence decal for a friends bike (I had it here for repair and went past a local police station during the test ride) and they (police) are supposed to inspect the bicycle for safety. The lady handed me the forum thru the slide box behind the bullet proof glass, I filled it out and passed it back with the $3 fee and she passes a decal back. She said it wasn't worth her time to do a safety inspection because I rode to the police station and didn't die on the way!
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
529 Garage, as mentioned, does the theft recovery very well. My fleet is registered there.
The inspection problem is easily solvable. The most obvious solution is to have bike shops provide the service for a nominal fee (e.g. $40). From my point of view the purpose of a safety inspection would be to keep e-bikes that aren't street legal off the roads (and keep them from getting a license) and perhaps have the license tag clearly show if it is a Class 3 or Class 2 e-bike. Heck, if you have a known list of e-bike models and their categories you could do most of the work online (so if you have a DIY build or something exotic you still need to take it for a physical inspection).
From my point of view the priority should be getting and keeping e-bikes that aren't street legal off the streets. That benefits everyone and takes the pressure off of demands for even more regulation of e-bikes.
The inspection problem is easily solvable. The most obvious solution is to have bike shops provide the service for a nominal fee (e.g. $40). From my point of view the purpose of a safety inspection would be to keep e-bikes that aren't street legal off the roads (and keep them from getting a license) and perhaps have the license tag clearly show if it is a Class 3 or Class 2 e-bike. Heck, if you have a known list of e-bike models and their categories you could do most of the work online (so if you have a DIY build or something exotic you still need to take it for a physical inspection).
From my point of view the priority should be getting and keeping e-bikes that aren't street legal off the streets. That benefits everyone and takes the pressure off of demands for even more regulation of e-bikes.
dblhelix
Well-Known Member
The bike licensing/registration is an interesting piece of history --thank you, but I this was pre-interstate America with relatively fewer cars on the road. What percentage of American households even owned a car? It made sense in 1935 to bike on the roads for transportation.
Today's reality is a lame "Bikes share the road" on a 50mph. Your usage of "community" and "recreation" implies recreation and joy-riding. My reality is trying to avoid road-rage drivers in my "car substitute." And I see significantly more use of e-scooters (in some wildly inappropriate places) which contribute heavily to ebike fires,
I think what I'm saying is that while items on your list individually have merit, the ebike experience just becomes a hassle if you throw regulations into the mix. We're really not welcome anywhere: No real roads with speed limits above 15; we're hated or blamed on trails, and now, after spending all kinds of $ on Bosch, I'm supposed to worry about ebike/scooter fires bc other ppl are making unwise, yet economically feasible decisions for themselves.
I can't help but think that there's a square peg/round hole aspect to ebikes in the US. I answer the same questions today as in 2016. Then there's the never-ending discussions about the lawmakers who don't "get' ebikes. Purchasing a legal bike in my state, which now is not, apparently, at least in nearby (shudder) NJ. The vague and often dangerous attempt at phony "bike infrastructure." Oy.
Chargeride
Well-Known Member
You can drive the 30mph Citroen Ami quadricycle mini car in France at 14, all you need is insurance and a basic road awareness test.
But you can't have a throttle on a 15mph bike.
I guess it simply because it's a car effectively and unlike to be driven on pavements or cycle paths.
Oh and the insurance
But you can't have a throttle on a 15mph bike.
I guess it simply because it's a car effectively and unlike to be driven on pavements or cycle paths.
Oh and the insurance
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
I think the choice is going to negotiate for some form of regulation or accept a total e-bike ban. Those are certainly suboptimal choices but it is what it is.
Two interesting points. I'd like to challenge the first , but explore the second.
This may be a cultural thing, but I find young people CAN make good choices / act responsibly if they are encouraged to do so. There's no magical age of responsibility, and in my experience delaying the process produces old irresponsible , cough, millennials.
My 15 yo son was riding my emtb as soon as he was strong enough to handle the extra weight - around 12 yo. He was riding motorbikes / mountain bikes and even driving in the paddock well before that. We'd had the talks about safety and HIS responsibility, and the very few times that he stretched the boundaries we talked again. I actually suspect his risk analysis skills are better than mine - he spots and reacts to obstacles quicker and more reliably than me - especially when we're riding extreme trails where I have to slow down to process information. He's been in situations with his 18 yo sister and overcome challenges that would strain most adults - mechanical / snakes / injured riders .
Last week , this kid recognised the subjects he had selected at school weren't challenging enough so he approached his year coordinator to negotiate a better mix - the teacher recognised his capabilities , negotiated a different pathway, and only remembered to involve us after shuffling his curriculum - when she called to apologise we thanked her for supporting his wishes / autonomy. He might not be legally responsible, but he's a LOT more responsible than most of the 30 yo's I know!
As for the group insurance - we have a voluntary equivalent in Australia and it's an interesting product. It's required for racing, but the cover continues away from the track. Apart from providing private level health cover, it also provides third party protection - so in a 30 yo knocks me over in the street, I have a pathway for compensation. I have mixed feelings - happy to have that pathway, but I WANT to keep open my options for educating the 30 yo. Unfortunately, the lawyers only want to chase the $. Our car third party insurance goes a step too far -we have legislation that prevents us chasing the mongrel 30 yo, a " no fault" insurance / compensation scheme and some terrifying people in cars
fuyume
Member
- Region
- USA
Yes, all of these.
However, I would argue that it's unduly discriminatory disabled people to permit Class III ebikes without throttles to go 28 mph while restricting Class II bikes with throttles to 20 mph. Pedalling or being able to pedal doesn't magically make it safer.
I'm absolutely fine with restricting the use of ebikes to ages 16 and up. I'm absolutely fine with strong regulations of the electrical components. I'm absolutely fine with there being some basic mechanical safety regulation of the industry that isn't merely voluntary.
I am absolutely not fine with ebike bans, licensing, registration, or insurance requirements.
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