My life was threatened....

[Avg_Joe]

This evening, I rode my usual suburban route, which consists of side streets, dirt trails, and greenway (paved walking & biking trails).

As I rode along a greenway at around 9mph (just above a jogger's pace), a man was walking in the center of it, with these huge headphones on. I rang my bell numerous times, called out vocally "passing on your left" 3 times, yet he didn't veer from the center. As I approached, he stepped left, and I swung left to miss him and was about 2-3 ft away as I passed. He began screaming like a frickin' lunatic, get yer @$$ back here, I'm gonna f***in kill you, next time I see you I'm gonna shoot you. I did not say a word, but (regrettably) gave him the middle finger from about 50 ft past him. He then went into a full rage and started chasing me, but had no chance of catching me. I could hear him saying he'll carry his gun and shoot me next time. I just kept on riding, never looked back. FYI I've seen this guy on the greenway a handful of times now, and he always walks as if he's the only person to use it.

So, yeah.

NC is open carry and I have a hand cannon, but I'd prefer not to carry it (I do not have my CCW yet). I was thinking a real tear gas cannister might be worthwhile to carry; and I have quick access to my Foldylock which would do some real damage should I be ambushed. I'd prefer no violence, but I am going to do whatever is necessary to protect myself.

I can deviate from my route, but hate to cave to a moron - the greenway is for all of us, and I am very judicious about speed, right-of-way, being a good, courteous rider.

How would you approach this?

 

[AHicks]

I would not have given him the finger. I think that move may have cost you the use of the trail he frequents for a while....

Why mess with a guy that's had a bad day? That's just asking for trouble....

 

[Catalyzt]

You have all my sympathy. It took me over 40 years to stop flipping people off. I only gave it up when I was in training to be a therapist and was actually co-facilitating an anger management group! I'd be, like, leading people in relaxation exercises, but inside, I'm gritting my teeth thinking, "I am SUCH a hypocrite." People in the group said I was really helpful to them, too-- and that just made me feel worse!

I was outta control. I would flip people off and then race them in my car (and on my bike before I got a license!) I brake-checked people, got into terrible standoffs where our cars would be pointed at each other and we'd be gunning our engines, screaming, and blasting loud music. So if I can stop flipping people off, you can, too.

Eventually, I used the tools in my own toolkit, and they actually worked. And I told my supervisor, shrink, friends, and my sponsor-- I was in early recovery-- what I was doing so they could help keep me in line. When I was learning, I got so frustrated I had to pull off the road and park until I cooled off. Once or twice, I didn't even get to where I was driving, I turned around and just went home. My buddies and supervisor were incredibly supportive.

What follows should not be construed as mental health treatment, but there's no law or ethical prohibition against simply listing some of the principles that can be helpful. Obviously, what you are doing is nowhere NEAR as aggressive as what that guy was doing, it's not even in the same league. However...

* You are only in charge of your own behavior. That is all you can control. The moment your thoughts, or actions, are focused on changing what the other person is doing, you're on your way to losing control.
* You must ride in control at all times. The goal is to never lose your temper, or to catch yourself as soon as possible when you do. When you are not angry, you can make clear decisions in the moment and evaluate what tactics are best for that particular situation.
* Be aware of the physical cues and stress thoughts that tell you you're about to flip someone off. Does your stomach get tight, do you clench your fists? Start thinking, "Here we go again!" or something similar? That's your signal to take a break-- either stop, take a break, deep breaths, prayer, etc. or just a smaller, mental break that would accomplish the same thing. At first, you may need to pull over.
* One thing that's helpful: Remember, you don't know what's going on with that guy. Maybe his mom is in a quadriplegic and he spends all day changing her diapers, this is the only time he gets out all day. Maybe he's a vet or a cop out on disability who had too many concussions and has TBI. I'm glad no one flipped me off or chased me the day my dog stopped breathing in my car on the way to the vet-- I was running lights on surface streets at close to 90. I still say prayers for the folks who just got out of my way... and didn't call 911 on me, either. (The dog made it, lived almost another year.)
* When you stop yourself from raising that middle finger, you'll feel like you wussed out. Instead, think this: "I'm not getting shot today, or shooting anyone. I'm not going to jail. I'm not going to have to explain a homicide to someone else's family. I'm not going to have to tell my boss, my wife, my buddies that I got arrested. I'm not going to face a long civil or criminal trial."

What I would do: Avoid that trail-- for a while. Weeks, maybe even a month or two. Again, we don't know what's going on with that guy, but he's probably pretty disorganized, and will forget about you very quickly.

If I saw him again, I wouldn't bother with the bell. I'd hang back until I could pass him with PLENTY of room on either side, even if that means going off the path and into the grass (if that's safe and your bike can do that.) Then I'd ride by quickly.

BTW, I support your decision not to carry a firearm. I don't have any problem with citizens owning firearms, but in every altercation I've been in, they would only have made things worse. Risk of shooting another pedestrian or cycliest = too high. At home (depending on where you live) that risk can be managed far better. Nothing wrong with having some pepper spray or other legal carry.

Don't get into a physical confrontation unless you are absolutely cornered and there's nothing else you can do to protect yourself. And usually, that's a situation you can avoid if you stay calm.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Too many guns.
Don't add to it.

 

[PatriciaK]

Please tell me this is NOT the Bicentennial Greenway in Greensboro !

 

[WattsUpDude]

You have all my sympathy. It took me over 40 years to stop flipping people off. I only gave it up when I was in training to be a therapist and was actually co-facilitating an anger management group! I'd be, like, leading people in relaxation exercises, but inside, I'm gritting my teeth thinking, "I am SUCH a hypocrite." People in the group said I was really helpful to them, too-- and that just made me feel worse!

I was outta control. I would flip people off and then race them in my car (and on my bike before I got a license!) I brake-checked people, got into terrible standoffs where our cars would be pointed at each other and we'd be gunning our engines, screaming, and blasting loud music. So if I can stop flipping people off, you can, too.

Eventually, I used the tools in my own toolkit, and they actually worked. And I told my supervisor, shrink, friends, and my sponsor-- I was in early recovery-- what I was doing so they could help keep me in line. When I was learning, I got so frustrated I had to pull off the road and park until I cooled off. Once or twice, I didn't even get to where I was driving, I turned around and just went home. My buddies and supervisor were incredibly supportive.

What follows should not be construed as mental health treatment, but there's no law or ethical prohibition against simply listing some of the principles that can be helpful. Obviously, what you are doing is nowhere NEAR as aggressive as what that guy was doing, it's not even in the same league. However...

* You are only in charge of your own behavior. That is all you can control. The moment your thoughts, or actions, are focused on changing what the other person is doing, you're on your way to losing control.
* You must ride in control at all times. The goal is to never lose your temper, or to catch yourself as soon as possible when you do. When you are not angry, you can make clear decisions in the moment and evaluate what tactics are best for that particular situation.
* Be aware of the physical cues and stress thoughts that tell you you're about to flip someone off. Does your stomach get tight, do you clench your fists? Start thinking, "Here we go again!" or something similar? That's your signal to take a break-- either stop, take a break, deep breaths, prayer, etc. or just a smaller, mental break that would accomplish the same thing. At first, you may need to pull over.
* One thing that's helpful: Remember, you don't know what's going on with that guy. Maybe his mom is in a quadriplegic and he spends all day changing her diapers, this is the only time he gets out all day. Maybe he's a vet or a cop out on disability who had too many concussions and has TBI. I'm glad no one flipped me off or chased me the day my dog stopped breathing in my car on the way to the vet-- I was running lights on surface streets at close to 90. I still say prayers for the folks who just got out of my way... and didn't call 911 on me, either. (The dog made it, lived almost another year.)
* When you stop yourself from raising that middle finger, you'll feel like you wussed out. Instead, think this: "I'm not getting shot today, or shooting anyone. I'm not going to jail. I'm not going to have to explain a homicide to someone else's family. I'm not going to have to tell my boss, my wife, my buddies that I got arrested. I'm not going to face a long civil or criminal trial."

What I would do: Avoid that trail-- for a while. Weeks, maybe even a month or two. Again, we don't know what's going on with that guy, but he's probably pretty disorganized, and will forget about you very quickly.

If I saw him again, I wouldn't bother with the bell. I'd hang back until I could pass him with PLENTY of room on either side, even if that means going off the path and into the grass (if that's safe and your bike can do that.) Then I'd ride by quickly.

BTW, I support your decision not to carry a firearm. I don't have any problem with citizens owning firearms, but in every altercation I've been in, they would only have made things worse. Risk of shooting another pedestrian or cycliest = too high. At home (depending on where you live) that risk can be managed far better. Nothing wrong with having some pepper spray or other legal carry.

Don't get into a physical confrontation unless you are absolutely cornered and there's nothing else you can do to protect yourself. And usually, that's a situation you can avoid if you stay calm.

Thank you for that. I think it’s helpful to read all of it.

 

[Nvreloader]

Joe
I would contact the local Law Enforcement for that area, and explain to them what went on, inform the LE officer that you feel threatened and not sure what to do.
Invite the LE officer for a bike ride, so he can see just what is involved,
and especially if you think you might met this person again.

When there is a record, that improves your side.
I pack 24/7, except in US Gov/state building that have "NO weapons policy" posted etc.
Keep a written record of ALL information on both sides, and if possible have a close friend or better half in on the conversations with LE..
HTH's,
Don

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Good luck going forward. Another bit of hindsight: I'm virtually positive the guy would have been just as angry if you blasted him with a train horn, or whatever it took to override his headphones. Not sure there's an easy win with people like that. I agree the middle finger had a negative affect, but it's likely I would have done the same thing.

The really scary thing is he'd probably get away with shooting you since about all it takes is saying he was afraid. His word against that of a dead guy.

Not that it matters a whole lot, but I think guns are prohibited on Nashville greenways. Not sure about that though.

TT

 

[newts]

Report it to police and stay away from there for a while. Return with some friends next time in case he is still lurking for you. If he really intends to follow through on his threat it probably won't matter if you are carrying.
As for flipping off I usually smile and wave and while it might also infuriate them it doesn't directly challenge their toxic and fragile masculinity.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I was wrong:

Republican Gov. Bill Haslam has signed the bill allowing people with handgun carry permits to be armed in city parks near schools.
The bill allows permit holders to be armed in any state park – including greenways, playgrounds and sports fields.
The proposal was eventually stripped of a provision that would allow permit holders to be armed at the state Capitol complex, a provision Haslam adamantly opposed.

(So guns are okay around kids, little old ladiies, and everyone else except Bill Haslam and his cronies in the capitol. These are mostly the same fine people who outlawed "camping" on public property.)

TT

 

[sc00ter]

I worked on my motor scooter all weekend and shockingly didn't bust a knuckle! No blood! That's very rare. So Sunday I'm going to get dinner and this guy tries a dangerous pass and I block him in because he almost sideswiped my car. I roll down the window to give him the finger and what happens? I cut my thumb pretty bad on the rain visor. I should have just dropped it but I didn't. Thumb still hurts.

I'm in the process of adding one of those vest things to mount a GoPro on my bike rides now. I run front and rear cameras on my cars, why not the bikes?

And I second the no gun. Carry mace/pepper spray instead. I like the jogger mace with the wrist holster. I don't have mine on me to post a picture but you can buy it at Wally World. He was probably zoning out to Yanni or Kenny G and you snapped him outta his favorite jam.

 

[newts]

Also get a "dashcam". I use a motorcycle DVR with 2 cameras for front and back and also sound. So far I only use it to share the derps it could be evidence if something serious happens. In your case it would be something tangible to share with police (and the local facebook groups...).

 

[rich c]

It'll definitely happen, and soon. Today an Indiana official praised a citizen for shooting a mall shooter. Indiana has an open carry without a permit, and evidently an acceptable vigilante shooting policy. In my city, Peoria, IL, we've had shootings and homicides 4 days in a row. Shooting is the new way of expression for someone that is not happy that you don't think like them. I'd alter your route, the old route is not worth dying for. https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/milwaukee-immigration-attorney-shot-dead-in-dispute-with-cyclist/

Cyclist killed in dispute; shooter dies in police gun battle

Police in South Carolina say officers fatally shot a man minutes after he killed a bicyclist during an argument near a park

abcnews.go.com

Man riding bicycle fatally shot in South Shore

About 4 p.m., he was riding a bike in the 2100 block of East 71st Street when someone fired shots at him from a dark-colored sedan, Chicago police said.

chicago.suntimes.com

'This is not the day God is going to let me die': 72yo on moment he was shot while cycling

An experienced cyclist who was shot multiple times by an unknown man while riding on a popular Victorian trail describes the moment he was attacked, saying he thought it was "lights out" on his life.

www.abc.net.au

Well, I didn't anticipate what a quick Google search did for the subject.

 

[rayray]

Mace? You’d better pay attention to which way the wind is blowing.

Personally, I’d do as others have stated; Contact the police, and avoid that particular path for a while. You’ll definitely be in a better position if you’ve contacted the police, should anything unfortunate occur.

As to what to carry, you’ll have to decide that for yourself (though you can probably guess my position from my first comment), but be certain you have legal and moral justification for any action you take. It’d be a private hell, let alone a legal hell, if you don’t. Actual hell too, if you subscribe to such beliefs.

 

[TomD]

My guess is the guy is just full of hot air (and has a really small pecker). If he was a gun crazy he probably wouldn't have left home unarmed. File a police report, it may not be the first time he's threatened someone. If you see him again and feel threatened, call 911.

 

[Mike_V]

Don't kill him Joe, remember, that will ruin your day.
Maybe; Whistle loud and fly by because the dog will look up.

( you may see him walking as you drive your truck down South Street someday though . . .)
I've decided that only high voltage speed will get me away from those guys and loose attack dogs.

(If grounded, I've my pocket knife, one large chrome assisted open Bowie, easily seen by ALL dogs )
Mike

 

[tomjasz]

I dare say most CCW folks are dreaming. They do not have the muscle memory or the stress training to maintain in a gun confrontation. Period. IME it’s more dangerous than effective. I spent hundreds of hours in pistol leagues and outdoor ranges, but everything changes when it’s Mano e Mano!
I stopped carrying years ago after a training session when I realized that taking another life regardless of the situation was not something I would ever want to emotionally accept. I calmed down. Keep my fingers down and chose any path to avoid creating more animosity. I do carry police grade pepper spray with a fluorescent tag but have never needed it. Diffusion is my best path forward.

I remember an idiot HS teacher in the Caribbean. He carried a big knife. A local kid confronted him. Dip wad pulled the 14” knife and before he could blink he was slashed with his own knife by a 20 something that grew up with machetes and shimming up coconut palms with a knife to harvest the nuts. Dumb white guys…

 

[Avg_Joe]

Please tell me this is NOT the Bicentennial Greenway in Greensboro !

No, it is the Carl Dean Greenway in Holly Springs.

I greatly appreciate the replies, particularly your words @Catalyzt. I discussed this with my wife last night and carrying a gun is just out of the question. Staying calm and "ignoring" st00pidity is the right thing to do; and I've made huge strides in not getting angry in my car and on the bike. Yep, throwing the bird was very dumb of me and is something I need to continue working on, as my wife reminded me - you never know who's carrying and having a really bad day.

It's sad because the dirt trails and this greenway are the highlight of my ride, but I will deviate from them for a while. I specifically mapped out this route due to these 2 features and the minimal risk the suburban streets in this area pose w/r/t traffic. I've met other people who I see frequently on this route and we stop and chat, it's really a pleasant ride. Conveniently, the town police office is along the route, I will stop in and ask them for their advice as well.

Mace/pepper spray I believe is something I'll start carrying, esp with all of the off-leash dogs I encounter.

Mindful meditation seriously changed my life; and I find the bike is like an hour+ mindful session. Just focus on what's out front, listen for the songs of birds, look for wildlife, enjoy the aromas outside. My mindful practice will be strengthened by sticking to it even when jerks try to interrupt, and my safety will be enhanced as well. Lesson learned.

 

[6zfshdb]

I used to carry in some location where I ride. I did it more for protection from wildlife than humans. I once startled a black bear and it was pretty scary for a couple of minutes. Fortunately, he just stared at me until he lost interest and walked away. I still renew my CCW permit but, due to some of the reasons mentioned above, I rarely use it anymore. I came to my senses after an incident 5 years ago. It still gives me nightmares and I don't like to talk about it but I think it appropriate to mention here.

I was riding the Carpendale Trail in MD. and was approaching the entrance to the Knobley Tunnel. Suddenly, a group of thugs came out of nowhere and blocked my path. I learned later this had become a favorite spot for druggies to get high and sometimes ambush trail users. I happened to be carrying my Sig P938 compact 9mm pistol but, for some reason, I decided it would be safer try and get through instead of stopping to confront the group.

One of them grabbed me and tried to pull me from the bike as I passed but he was so stoned, he lost his grip and fell on his face. The others were so high they just stood there laughing. I went through the tunnel and met an older gentleman who I warned of the thugs. He said it was a common occurrence and that I should call the police. When I did, the officer I spoke to told me that the incident actually occurred in MD, not WV. where it is legal to carry. MD has some of the toughest handgun laws in the country. If I had been caught with my weapon, I would likely face mandatory jail time even though I was attempting to use it in self defense. In effect, I would be in worse trouble than the perps. This is doubly true if I had actually shot someone.

Yeah, I know, there are those who will say at least I'd still be alive. Maybe yes, maybe no. 20 years ago, it might have been different but I'm 75 now, not in the best of shape and not trained in hand to hand combat. I've never pulled a gun on anyone in my life and I honestly don't know if I could have pulled the trigger. It's possible the gun could have been taken and used against me. This is where the nightmares begin.

I had to ask myself these questions:
1 - Do I always know the constantly changing handgun laws in the many places I ride?
2 - Should I get self defense firearms training?
3 - If confronted, would I actually pull the trigger?

Rather than deal with answers, I decided it's best to avoid questionable locations and just not carry anymore. I now do all my shooting at home.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a morality play but it's a very personal thing for me. I'm a gun enthusiast and am against overly restrictive gun laws. I realize others have different opinions which I respect. It is not my intent to preach to others but simply to relate my own personal point of view. Please take it for what it's worth.

 

[AHicks]

My issue - the thought that if you feel threatened enough to pull a gun, there should be no hesitation in pulling the trigger. If you plan on waving it around or pointing it as a warning, it's very likely going to get you shot.