My 1000w motor journey and fear mongering by users of the forum!

[MrCaspan]

@MrCaspan, it's a little off topic, but I do have a question if you don't mind? Any trouble procuring your bike? Did you buy it stateside and carry it across, or did you just order it through conventional channels and have it sent to your home?

Nope bought it in Canada because again it's not illegal as some will make you feel on here to own a bike that is above 1000w it is just against the Highway Traffic Act to ride it on Ontario roads. What is I wanted to buy the bike to ride on my farm all day? Its private land and the Highway Traffic act does not apply to private land so I have to buy a bike that is limited to that rule. All I did was asked them to send it to me with no governance on it. They were happy to comply, I could have asked them to lock it to 32km/h also. I did a lot of research before I decided to ride this as my commuter and talked to insurance and the police and a lot of manufacturers in Canada. I know iGo will only sell theirs locked down. I love this bike to be honest other then the 100w motor is loud.

 

[AHicks]

Nope bought it in Canada because again it's not illegal as some will make you feel on here to own a bike that is above 1000w it is just against the Highway Traffic Act to ride it on Ontario roads. What is I wanted to buy the bike to ride on my farm all day? Its private land and the Highway Traffic act does not apply to private land so I have to buy a bike that is limited to that rule. All I did was asked them to send it to me with no governance on it. They were happy to comply, I could have asked them to lock it to 32km/h also. I did a lot of research before I decided to ride this as my commuter and talked to insurance and the police and a lot of manufacturers in Canada. I know iGo will only sell theirs locked down. I love this bike to be honest other then the 100w motor is loud.

Mine seems to be getting quieter as the miles are stacking up on it (about 1500 now). It's either that or I'm getting used to it....

 

[EMGX]

This is a great point and I have already verified with my insurance company that I have full coverage for liability for me and for anything I could hit and it does not matter if I'm doing wheelies down the road and hit someone or being a good driver and hit some one, I am covered. But it is really great point to have people check to makes sure they do have insurance no matter what. I even asked them as I deal with a broker about the non compliant bike and they said just because I don't have a compliant bike does not change fault. It's up to whoever is investigating to prove that because I have a non compliant bike that it caused the accident. It's impossible to prove that. They said even if I was speeding there has to be proof of the speeding not just someone saying I was speeding. Having a non compliant device does not all of a sudden make me at fault in an accident but I could get a ticket for ridding my bike on a road way that is non compliant.

Shocking that they didn't warn you that in the event of an accident, regardless of circumstances, that it is highly likely that your your bike will be inspected for compliance and that your liability would increase "exponentially" because you ride a non-compliant ebike. You should tell them to check with EBR authorities before giving such dangerous advice.

 

[MrCaspan]

Sorry for all the replies.. Some one asked for some bike porn of my bike so here it is

 

[Dorkyman]

It seems the original thread starter doesn't understand the concept of power. "500w" or "1000w" are not very relevant claims. Just take your battery voltage and multiply it by the maximum current your controller can output and that will give you the total number of Watts. my Lectric is 48v and 18a, so about 900 w, or a little over 1 HP maximum. That's way above the 500 W rating of the geared hub, but it's only for a little while, such as when going up a hill, maybe 5 minutes, so the motor handles it just fine without overheating.

 

[AHicks]

It seems the original thread starter doesn't understand the concept of power. "500w" or "1000w" are not very relevant claims. Just take your battery voltage and multiply it by the maximum current your controller can output and that will give you the total number of Watts. my Lectric is 48v and 18a, so about 900 w, or a little over 1 HP maximum. That's way above the 500 W rating of the geared hub, but it's only for a little while, such as when going up a hill, maybe 5 minutes, so the motor handles it just fine without overheating.

On the bold, you're talking about what the motor is using, not what the motor is rated for. In the real world, a motor is rated for how much wattage it will handle for extended periods.

The rest of your thought, I agree with completely, but 5 minutes might be stretching it a bit? Things could get REALLY hot in 5 minutes. I have a bike with a 500w geared hub motor using a KT22a controller for instance. That setup can feed the 500 with close to 1000w pretty easily (it gets REAL sporty on that kind of power!) - but I wouldn't want to do that any longer than it takes to cross a busy road, catch up with a riding buddy, or pop up a short hill.

In the advertising world, the motor's rating could be about legal issues (common, the big Bafang drives for instance, are often rated at much less than what they are capable of), or it could be how much it will handle on a short term "sprint" basis (pretty common for 500's to carry a 750 rating). Neither number has anything to do with the motor's ability.

Bottom line, darn few know what the real rating is or should be, or how that result was arrived at.

 

[JRA]

It has been mentioned here and YouTube that splitting the case and applying Corn Head Grease, a John Deere product, to an M620 will help to quiet it down. I have done it to mine and a friends and although it doesn't silence it, it does cut down the db's quite a bit to a mild buzz. Big thing is that stock from the factory there is very little grease in there and the gears are all steel so that is why they are loud. A bit of the old slippery does the trick and the aforementioned product seems to be the go to.

As far as figuring out what a motor is capable of for just about any given situation this calculator can provide all the info one would desire:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

 

[Solarcabin]

The watts stamped on a motor are basically meaningless and just means it can handle that many watts at that amps for an extended period.

A motor made for higher speeds will have thicker gauge wiring, metal gears instead of plastic and bigger magnets so it can handle higher heat.

You can make even a 500 watt motor run at 1000 watts with the right amp power controller but it will likely burn that motor out fast.

Futility of Motor Power Ratings

"There's no such thing as a rated watt!" Read here for why we don't advertise a simple power rating for the motors we sell. Also, have a look at our Youtube video where Justin talks about the power to propel bicycles in <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALde6zhLPs0">"School of Watts"</a>.

ebikes.ca

 

[mschwett]

Bottom line, darn few know what the real rating is or should be, or how that result was arrived at.

given the nature of electric motors... i wonder why they don't simply write the limitation as the maximum allowable power CONSUMPTION of the system? then it would be based on the batteries and controller, and could be trivially easily measured. simple software switches could allow compliance with different rules.

 

[ElevenAD]

Sorry for all the replies.. Some one asked for some bike porn of my bike so here it is View attachment 133948
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Holy %$&@! That bike is beautiful, that color is just killer!

 

[PDoz]

given the nature of electric motors... i wonder why they don't simply write the limitation as the maximum allowable power CONSUMPTION of the system? then it would be based on the batteries and controller, and could be trivially easily measured. simple software switches could allow compliance with different rules.

Because of plausible deniability.

Once upon a time "they " sat around a-table and convinced the pen pushers a 250 w ebike provided the same assistance as a normal cyclist, so it should be classified as a bicycle. I don't want to speculate on how much alcohol was involved or who did what . Signatures were scribbled and every country except Awmerrycar has kept quiet since.

Now lets ignore that elephant bouncing around the room as it tries to catch a flying pig. Move along, nothing to see. ....250 whatevers .....at least until fazua start advertising 450 w peak from their 60 nm motor - yup, 12 seconds of glory is something to brag about.....

 

[AHicks]

given the nature of electric motors... i wonder why they don't simply write the limitation as the maximum allowable power CONSUMPTION of the system? then it would be based on the batteries and controller, and could be trivially easily measured. simple software switches could allow compliance with different rules.

In many cases bikes with anemic power have had their controllers replaced with much more capable controllers by dissatisfied owners. That's not an expensive project for a DIY'er. This new controller can often be used to double or triple the "rated" power of the motor. You just need to be mindful of the fact that the extra power is making a lot of heat when used, and it builds quickly. Fine for a quick sprint, but a recipe for a smoky smelly disaster if abused.

We have varying "simple software switches" on most bikes now. The various PAS levels most bikes come with could be thought of that way.

There's no easy answers here, none I'm familiar with anyway. -Al

 

[Solarcabin]

In many cases bikes with anemic power have had their controllers replaced with much more capable controllers by dissatisfied owners. That's not an expensive project for a DIY'er. This new controller can often be used to double or triple the "rated" power of the motor. You just need to be mindful of the fact that the extra power is making a lot of heat when used, and it builds quickly. Fine for a quick sprint, but a recipe for a smoky smelly disaster if abused.

We have varying "simple software switches" on most bikes now. The various PAS levels most bikes come with could be thought of that way.

There's no easy answers here, none I'm familiar with anyway. -Al

The best way to deal with it to let the rider decide what speed to set their ebike at based on the laws and road conditions just like all other vehicles on the road.

My Ariel X can be set for class1,2,3 or unlimited and the PAS is set for the class 1 and 15mph for heavy traffic or bike paths. Class 2 and 20mph for in town where traffic, stop signs, road hazards and pedestrians are an issue. Class 3 and 28mph for open road and light traffic and unlimited for approved off road and the occasional back country road when there is no traffic.

Just like a car I choose the appropriate speed setting and I expect the same respect as cars get for their vehicles in the laws.

 

[K PierreR]

The way the regs are written, everything is crystal clear about e bikes and power. What causes the issues is that very few people on these forums understand electric power, electric motors and the regs. Most relate their understanding to gasoline engines.
You can be pulling 1,560 watts of power from the battery putting out 160+ Nm of torque and still be within the legal motor output. Wattage limits speed not climbing ability or torque in an electric motor. Many here would say if I am pulling 1,560 watts of power from the battery on a 52-volt system, I am illegal because that is 1,560 watts. or 30 amps times 52 volts. Yes, I am drawing that much power but, if the speed is only 6mph climbing a 20%+ grade at a weight of 400 lb the motor output is only a little over 500 watts per hour. The rest (1,000 watts per hour) is quickly going to overheat the motor, an unsustainable condition. When a manufacturer says that peak load is 600 watts on a 250-watt system it means that 600 watts is available for climbing and torque at lower rpm just like my example above. The bike is still not actually putting out more than 250 watts per hour. Watts and torque are instantaneous values. Power has a time element and that is where the biggest misunderstanding is.

My motor is rated at a nominal output of 1080 watts but if I am pedaling and able to put some of my own power in, I cannot easily exceed 750 watts. Why? because I can only sustain about 90 rpm on the cranks and 1080 watts requires the full max of 130 rpm and a full nominal load on the motor. So, for all practical purposes I reject the notion that I am running an illegal bike because I don't ghost pedal except when I have to climb something ridiculous.

Most other e bikers I meet are dumb enough to think that the number of batteries that I carry on my bike and the size of the tires is in direct proportion to the power output of the bike instead of just being a large fuel tank on a fat bike. E bikes are pathetic for power, but most people compare e bike power to that of a human and they don't realize how pathetic a human really is for power production. e bike motors are built to mimic a human. They are built for strength and not for power output. Gasoline engines are not and cannot easily meet the regs as a result. The regs are written strongly in favor of electric motors and bias against gasoline motors to the point of exclusion.

 

[MrCaspan]

The way the regs are written, everything is crystal clear about e bikes and power. What causes the issues is that very few people on these forums understand electric power, electric motors and the regs. Most relate their understanding to gasoline engines.
You can be pulling 1,560 watts of power from the battery putting out 160+ Nm of torque and still be within the legal motor output. Wattage limits speed not climbing ability or torque in an electric motor. Many here would say if I am pulling 1,560 watts of power from the battery on a 52-volt system, I am illegal because that is 1,560 watts. or 30 amps times 52 volts. Yes, I am drawing that much power but, if the speed is only 6mph climbing a 20%+ grade at a weight of 400 lb the motor output is only a little over 500 watts per hour. The rest (1,000 watts per hour) is quickly going to overheat the motor, an unsustainable condition. When a manufacturer says that peak load is 600 watts on a 250-watt system it means that 600 watts is available for climbing and torque at lower rpm just like my example above. The bike is still not actually putting out more than 250 watts per hour. Watts and torque are instantaneous values. Power has a time element and that is where the biggest misunderstanding is.

My motor is rated at a nominal output of 1080 watts but if I am pedaling and able to put some of my own power in, I cannot easily exceed 750 watts. Why? because I can only sustain about 90 rpm on the cranks and 1080 watts requires the full max of 130 rpm and a full nominal load on the motor. So, for all practical purposes I reject the notion that I am running an illegal bike because I don't ghost pedal except when I have to climb something ridiculous.

Most other e bikers I meet are dumb enough to think that the number of batteries that I carry on my bike and the size of the tires is in direct proportion to the power output of the bike instead of just being a large fuel tank on a fat bike. E bikes are pathetic for power, but most people compare e bike power to that of a human and they don't realize how pathetic a human really is for power production. e bike motors are built to mimic a human. They are built for strength and not for power output. Gasoline engines are not and cannot easily meet the regs as a result. The regs are written strongly in favor of electric motors and bias against gasoline motors to the point of exclusion.

While I agree with what you are saying for me its funny that manufacturing is under no law or regulation to properly label a 750w motor as 750w they can just label it as 500w. So while the law is clear on what makes a legal street bike they are all different and there is no regulations. How can you prove its a 750w, you cant. I have mine labeled 500w and there is no way to prove it differently because the exact same things you just said. Its also why law makers need to be more educated when making rules and laws about arbitrary vales like wattage instead of speed. Why should wattage ever be a restriction?

 

[K PierreR]

While I agree with what you are saying for me its funny that manufacturing is under no law or regulation to properly label a 750w motor as 750w they can just label it as 500w. So while the law is clear on what makes a legal street bike they are all different and there is no regulations. How can you prove its a 750w, you cant. I have mine labeled 500w and there is no way to prove it differently because the exact same things you just said. Its also why law makers need to be more educated when making rules and laws about arbitrary vales like wattage instead of speed. Why should wattage ever be a restriction?

The rule makers were very highly educated when the originally wrote the regs and manufacturers don't just arbitrarily label anything they want. Just ask Volks Wagon on that one. The regs were written to give great leeway to put punch and the feeling of power into a bike at lower speeds while the upper limits are controlled by the optimal power output. The bike is rated according to the design and that includes software and battery. Any manufacturer that is just labeling any ol'way he wants too is likely to lose a lawsuit.

The first generation of e bikes makers in the US did not understand the regs and left power on the table at the low end. Bikes were lethargic and would not climb at slow speeds. The marketing money is in controllers and software. If you don't know what you are doing or, someone else has the patent, your bike is a pig and won't sell many.

Bafang was the leader 10 years ago but they are very late to the e bike OEM market now. Their software still mimics the Chinese commuter market and not the leisure western world market. Since you commute, you like it very much. I don't and spent considerable time changing things.

 

[MrCaspan]

The rule makers were very highly educated when the originally wrote the regs and manufacturers don't just arbitrarily label anything they want. Just ask Volks Wagon on that one. The regs were written to give great leeway to put punch and the feeling of power into a bike at lower speeds while the upper limits are controlled by the optimal power output. The bike is rated according to the design and that includes software and battery. Any manufacturer that is just labeling any ol'way he wants too is likely to lose a lawsuit.

The first generation of e bikes makers in the US did not understand the regs and left power on the table at the low end. Bikes were lethargic and would not climb at slow speeds. The marketing money is in controllers and software. If you don't know what you are doing or, someone else has the patent, your bike is a pig and won't sell many.

Bafang was the leader 10 years ago but they are very late to the e bike OEM market now. Their software still mimics the Chinese commuter market and not the leisure western world market. Since you commute, you like it very much. I don't and spent considerable time changing things.

None one regulates them and sorry educated people did not make these rules in my opinion... again why would you limit a bike to an arbitrary wattage rating instead of a speed limit? Perfect example is if auto law makers limited cars to horse power instead of speed it makes no sense and again proves they were not thinking properly. why should it matter if i have 1000w bike carrying 300 pound person or a 250w bike carying a 75lb person. wattage is not important to limit the speed is the limit they should worry about.

 

[AHicks]

The rule makers were very highly educated when the originally wrote the regs and manufacturers don't just arbitrarily label anything they want. Just ask Volks Wagon on that one. The regs were written to give great leeway to put punch and the feeling of power into a bike at lower speeds while the upper limits are controlled by the optimal power output. The bike is rated according to the design and that includes software and battery. Any manufacturer that is just labeling any ol'way he wants too is likely to lose a lawsuit.

The first generation of e bikes makers in the US did not understand the regs and left power on the table at the low end. Bikes were lethargic and would not climb at slow speeds. The marketing money is in controllers and software. If you don't know what you are doing or, someone else has the patent, your bike is a pig and won't sell many.

Bafang was the leader 10 years ago but they are very late to the e bike OEM market now. Their software still mimics the Chinese commuter market and not the leisure western world market. Since you commute, you like it very much. I don't and spent considerable time changing things.

"The rule makers were very highly educated when the originally wrote the regs and manufacturers don't just arbitrarily label anything they want."

Disagree. At best, they were politicians taking a wild swing at what they thought might happen so they would have something in place, but only to avoid getting caught with their pants down. A knee jerk reaction. There was no intelligence, logic, or common sense involved....

"Just ask Volks Wagon on that one."

I'd much rather ask someone like RAD. Much more relevant. Let's ask them how many 500w Bafang motors they decided to rate as 750's with a caveat right in the owners manual to be careful climbing hills for fear of overheating.

"I don't and spent considerable time changing things."

That's your loss and a personal issue. Or are you saying that consumers should not be able to tailor their settings - because you don't?

 

[Alaskan]

None one regulates them and sorry educated people did not make these rules in my opinion... again why would you limit a bike to an arbitrary wattage rating instead of a speed limit? Perfect example is if auto law makers limited cars to horse power instead of speed it makes no sense and again proves they were not thinking properly. why should it matter if i have 1000w bike carrying 300 pound person or a 250w bike carying a 75lb person. wattage is not important to limit the speed is the limit they should worry about.

A speed limit is far simpler and easier to enforce.

 

[PDoz]

A speed limit is far simpler and easier to enforce.

NOOOOO!!!!!

Anyone advocating speed limits should get ready for the return of us vs them, My "240 w " regularly sees speeds of 75 kph , and my sons unpowered mtb is pulling away down those hills.

Darwin would have made a great polictician