Moving Away From Heavy E-Bikes

[PDoz]

I personally have no need for Strava and manage fine without it. That being said, if it works for others then all the power.


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Night riding in the snow.....bliss or insanity? Certainly inspiring.

We don't get a lot of opportunities to do that around here - it's a couple of hours excursion to find white stuff that is legal to ride. So most of my snow riding is on the motorbike , and the night ones are usually a group ride that goes wrong - mechanical or medical adventures delaying pub oclock. I also struggle to navigate in the snow at night - the trails start to look the same, signs are non existent..and most of our bush tracks are poorly documented on gps.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

Super light and fast has always been my go to build style. After loading in my Mother's 80lb ebike into her SUV the 10th time. I soon began my ebike journey myself looking for a lightweight fun ebike that ideally would be fold-able , fast , climb hills in my mountainous region with ease. My new project is a Tern X18 ,that weighs in at a starting weight of 23.8lbs/10.8kg. It will be mostly a street build but with added thicker tires , not much room there for thicker tires it will be capable off road too. My previous folder did surprisingly very well off road with skinny tires. I had 20X1.5 on there at one point and they did amazingly well off road.

My previous build even with a suspension stem and a heavier brooks spring seat weighed in at 40lbs with just the saddle bag battery. I could've slimmed it down a little with a lighter cambium seat and remove the suspension stem. But the bike was already a wheelie machine that the added weight of the 13.5ah frame battery helped with the high torque. A really really fun bike. The guy who purchased it is an airline pilot (private airlines) and now takes the bike in a large duffel bag on his plane. He loves it. The bike goes 36mph on a pure flat road throttle only. 40lbs in the normal bike world is heavy but ebikes ,not too shabby.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just show me your Strava profile.
Indeed, people recording on Strava are more credible because they can prove they have gathered necessary experience.

So RideWithGPS doesn't count? Or Komoot? There are lots of tools that do basically the Same Thing if all you are asking for is recording rides.

For that matter, gadgetry from Garmin, Wahoo, Hammerhead, and Suunto all comes with apps that record your rides. There are a lot of tools out there and nobody is required to use any of them if they do not wish to.

Oh, and technically Hammerhead does not come with an app. You connect it directly to the internet (by setting up wifi or using an internal SIM card) and it interacts with its web API. You use a web site to up the device and load routes into it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

There are lots of tools that do basically the Same Thing if all you are asking for is recording rides.

RWGPS or Komoot play no social role. There is only one friend of mine on RWGPS (it is @RabH) while everybody else is on Strava. I keep a double (parallel) record of my rides (Strava, RWGPS) fed by my Wahoo. I also know an Android app to transfer the data between different sports trackers (the name is SyncMyTracks). That's how I transferred all my rides from the defunct Endomondo to Strava and RWGPS.

RWGPS does not recognize e-bikes. Strava recognizes and separates bikes, gravel bikes, MTB, e-bikes, and e-MTB. There even are Strava E-Bike Segments!

For that matter, gadgetry from Garmin, Wahoo, Hammerhead, and Suunto all comes with apps that record your rides.

Currently only Wahoo ELEMNT fully supports Specialized and Giant e-bikes, including SL e-bikes with Range Extender; Mahle X... e-bikes are partly supported. Garmin Edge works OK with the same e-bikes, only it does not understand the SL Range Extender. The latest attempt by Hammerhead Karoo2 brought a solution similar to Garmin Edge (Range Extender not recognized). Does Suunto connect to e-bikes?

All bike GPS computers send recorded rides to plethora of sports trackers.

 

[PCeBiker]

Who on earth would need the voltage display?

A voltmeter is all you need.

You can see the remaining capacity if you stop pedaling (remove the load from the battery) and see what the voltage is.

You can check the health of the battery by watching how far the voltage drops under load and how fast the capacity drops as the battery is draining.

New batteries, bigger batteries, healthier batteries have less voltage sag and drop in capacity than older, smaller, worn out batteries.

You just stop pedaling (to shut off your motor) and watch how the voltage rebounds to show you your capacity.
A newer, larger, healthier battery will rebound faster and further than old worn smaller batteries.

Cold batteries have less capacity as well.
All that can be observed by watching your voltmeter.
They are slow and sluggish to rebound but are faster to drop in capacity and have greater voltage sag.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

RWGPS or Komoot play no social role. There is only one friend of mine on RWGPS (it is @RabH) while everybody else is on Strava.

This is highly region-dependent, and also highly dependent on the activity and your in group.

Where I live, nearly everyone uses RWGPS and routes are commonly shared via RWGPS.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Night riding in the snow.....bliss or insanity? Certainly inspiring.

We don't get a lot of opportunities to do that around here - it's a couple of hours excursion to find white stuff that is legal to ride. So most of my snow riding is on the motorbike , and the night ones are usually a group ride that goes wrong - mechanical or medical adventures delaying pub oclock. I also struggle to navigate in the snow at night - the trails start to look the same, signs are non existent..and most of our bush tracks are poorly documented on gps.

Conquering the dark abyss of winter isn’t as daunting as it seems but, like anything else, it does require a bit of preparation. Naturally proper studded tires and having a good lighting system that lights up the trail goes a long way in making the ride enjoyable. I’ve also ridden the trails around here long enough to know each route intimately.

On the other hand, I’m not sure how I would deal with the searing temps that you blokes have to endure down under so my hats off to you. I’m somewhat of a wimp when it comes to heat or humidity.

 

[Prairie Dog]

I've never been a fan of fat bikes, but if I lived in Calgary I might buy one so I could do night rides in the snow with that group. That looks really cool.

For sure. Some of their rides are awe inspiring and enticing to say the least. But it’s not all fat biking as the group’s attention turns to mtbs in the summer months. Some of the members ride emtbs/e-fat bikes exclusively during the entire year which got me interested enough to finally sign up. It was actually @RandallS who provided me with their facebook link last year. I was amazed at how large a following they have.

Prairie Mountain, Bragg Creek, AB

 

[PedalUma]

I normally ride solo but group rides are nice too. With groups the pace is set by the slowest rider. This little guy plugs into the charging port of a battery to display voltage. Older batteries start to sag faster than newer batteries. Anything is derailing if it does not have to do with how Stefan is the greatest. Spandex in highly flammable.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Spandex in highly flammable.

Good to know. I have a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to shorts on fire.

 

[PSm]

Wow, this thread sure took off quickly. I just noticed it and it's not even a week old and up to 9 pages.

In any event, I am what Stefan describes in the first post. I had a full power Juiced CCS. That was a great bike and I enjoyed it. A friend was eyeing it and really liked it, so I sold it to him. I got a Creo which I liked, but didn't like the proprietary spacing on the wheels, nor did I like the 1X drivetrain on the road, so I don't ride it much anymore. In fact it's been lent to friends for most of the last six months.

I now primarily ride my 2011 Cervelo RS (work commuter) and my Specialized Aethos. At times I do miss having a motor and I'm pretty tired at times.

I will come back to an ebike in the future, but I'm hoping all the R&D going into electric cars will yield big improvements in battery technology, allowing for a lightweight ebike at a reasonable price. Right now, there are ebikes that are pretty light, but boy are they expensive.

+1
Got 12k miles on my Juiced CCA, and now it’s gathering dust. Found lighter weight bikes that much more enjoyable and nimble.

Hoping for the next gen of battery and motor technology. In the meantime, since I stick to paved roads and trails, finding that using very low rolling resistance tires and lightweight TPU tubes to provide the best and most affordable upgrades to performance and ease of riding.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

Trying to source a light FAT bike and found these. Pretty nice 23lb/11kg FAT bike

 

[Gionnirocket]

For sure. Some of their rides are awe inspiring and enticing to say the least. But it’s not all fat biking as the group’s attention turns to mtbs in the summer months. Some of the members ride emtbs/e-fat bikes exclusively during the entire year which got me interested enough to finally sign up. It was actually @RandallS who provided me with their facebook link last year. I was amazed at how large a following they have.

Prairie Mountain, Bragg Creek, AB
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View attachment 150381

Much more impressive than any Strava stat or group sausage photo!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You can see the remaining capacity if you stop pedaling (remove the load from the battery) and see what the voltage is.

You can check the health of the battery by watching how far the voltage drops under load and how fast the capacity drops as the battery is draining.

New batteries, bigger batteries, healthier batteries have less voltage sag and drop in capacity than older, smaller, worn out batteries.

You just stop pedaling (to shut off your motor) and watch how the voltage rebounds to show you your capacity.
A newer, larger, healthier battery will rebound faster and further than old worn smaller batteries.

Cold batteries have less capacity as well.
All that can be observed by watching your voltmeter.
They are slow and sluggish to rebound but are faster to drop in capacity and have greater voltage sag.

We are probably riding e-bikes with quite different electronics and batteries. I could have never noticed any sag in any of my batteries for Specialized or Giant, and some of them are over 3 years old and heavily used.
Yes, I could notice the sag in my cheapest e-bike (which I don't ride anymore) but that e-bike is equipped with a cheap battery and electronics.

 

[PCeBiker]

We are probably riding e-bikes with quite different electronics and batteries. I could have never noticed any sag in any of my batteries for Specialized or Giant, and some of them are over 3 years old and heavily used.
Yes, I could notice the sag in my cheapest e-bike (which I don't ride anymore) but that e-bike is equipped with a cheap battery and electronics.

That has nothing to do with it.
All batteries have voltage sag while under load.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That has nothing to do with it.
All batteries have voltage sag while under load.

EDITED:

This is the voltage chart from a Specialized Vado as the function of the battery percentage on a ride. Certainly, the voltage curve is not smooth. Don't you think good electronics can compensate for that, for instance manipulating the current sent to the motor?
It is a mid-drive, and the current sent to the motor is variable, also depending on the rider's leg power input at a given time. The objective of the electronics is to send as much power to the motor as to meet the criterion of amplifying the rider's leg input with a given Boost Factor. It is totally different on a hub-drive. With the hub-drive, the voltage is the driving force. With the battery sag, your motor gets less or more power, making the ride less smooth.

If you like, I can produce a chart of the power delivered to the motor at any time, and of the current sent to the motor.

Could you tell me why I need any voltmeter then?

 

[PCeBiker]

All batteries have internal resistance.
Some batteries more than others.
That resistance creates a voltage drop inside the battery reducing the output voltage, and heat inside the battery as well.

That heat can lead to battery fires.
Better quality lithium cells have very low internal resistance and can deliver power without getting as hot.
Same goes for charging batteries.

 

[linklemming]

Strange. Have never noticed that. Don't you think a good electronics could compensate for it, for instance sending higher current?

You likely wont see the sag as your battery indicator (assuming bars) isnt showing you the actual voltage but some sort of 'summarized voltage' averaged over time although it might be using other data depending on algorithm..

You would need to see actual RAW voltage to see sag

Good electronics could/does compensate depending on if they are trying to provide constant current (no) or constant power (yes). Cheaper controllers likely use constant current.

If your controller is providing constant power then the bars (assuming based on average voltage...preferably no load) will decrease faster as the battery voltage gets lower because it is using more amps. This would apply to a %display as well this has been 'proven' by many peoples observations on these forums....including me. Not a big deal, easy enough to compensate for but its there.

While cell resistance is a good indication of battery quality, it isnt the end all measurement for quality initially(in a simplistic sense). Cells designed to be higher output(30q) will definately have lower initial resistance but cells designed for more cycles but decent power (like the GA cells,,,used in older teslas) will have higher initial resistance. This will change over time with increasing resistance as the pack ages where the 30q resistance will outweigh the GA cells.

In the end, cell resistance(and resulting sag) is what defines the life of a battery (assuming no individual cells have died yet)

 

[PCeBiker]

Even the speedometer on my old e-bike is a computerized dummy gage.

As soon as I disengage the cruise control the speedometer instantly drops from 25 kph to 22 kph but my speed didn't change.

I was worried that my voltmeter was a dummy gage too, so I velcroed a voltmeter on top of the bike's voltmeter.
(note the remaining glue after I removed it. )

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You would need to see actual RAW voltage to see sag

See my edited post and read the explanation.
The chart is from the RAW data.

@PCeBiker: my EDIT also pertains to you.