Moving Away From Heavy E-Bikes

[kevinmccune]

I normally ride solo but group rides are nice too. With groups the pace is set by the slowest rider. This little guy plugs into the charging port of a battery to display voltage. Older batteries start to sag faster than newer batteries. Anything is derailing if it does not have to do with how Stefan is the greatest. Spandex in highly flammable.
View attachment 150390

Have riden with less( if the trail is deserted) the air feels good on a nice day.

 

[kevinmccune]

So I assume it's possible for a cell to short itself out internally?

When a cell overheats it overrides the "vent" so to speak and it cascades very quickly, oft times taking the rest with it

 

[PCeBiker]

When a cell overheats it overrides the "vent" so to speak and it cascades very quickly, oft times taking the rest with it

I assume a bad cell is more inclined to overheat?

 

[linklemming]

When a cell overheats it overrides the "vent" so to speak and it cascades very quickly, oft times taking the rest with it

Interestingly on a pack that had a bad cell and required disposal, I disassembled it to individual cells and discharged each one with a small automotive light bulb.

How did I know each cell was done?, you could hear the noise of the cell venting when the voltage got low enough

 

[PCeBiker]

Ohh,..
I figured that they would vent when they overcharged?
Started to boil or something like that.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Most likely, the data being shown while sampled at 1Hz(by the app) is sampled at higher frequencies within the embedded firmware within the motor and then averaged according to some criteria (of which I have mentioned previously). That data (before being averaged) is what is considered RAW data in any engineering discipline.

I cant believe we are even debating this

My whole point was the voltmeter was not needed at all for a high quality mid-drive motor e-bike. All you need is a reliable battery %, possibly Wh remaining in the battery, and maybe the W/km (or mile) data field. The new Specialized Mastermind e-bikes have all such data available for display, including a reliable Range Remaining and Range Trend (that is, whether you are losing or gaining Range depending on the current ride conditions). Add to it MicroTune (adjusting the assistance in small increments as you ride) and Smart Control (ensure you will make your ride goal still with the battery charge), and it is more than most e-bikes can provide. For a practical cyclist, the Cadence and Rider's Power fields are extremely important, and not found on many e-bikes.

Now, could you show me similar charts to what I showed before? Or, you are just tawking?

 

[PDoz]

My whole point was the voltmeter was not needed at all for a high quality mid-drive motor e-bike. All you need is a reliable battery %, possibly Wh remaining in the battery, and maybe the W/km (or mile) data field. The new Specialized Mastermind e-bikes have all such data available for display, including a reliable Range Remaining and Range Trend (that is, whether you are losing or gaining Range depending on the current ride conditions). Add to it MicroTune (adjusting the assistance in small increments as you ride) and Smart Control (ensure you will make your ride goal still with the battery charge), and it is more than most e-bikes can provide. For a practical cyclist, the Cadence and Rider's Power fields are extremely important, and not found on many e-bikes.

Now, could you show me similar charts to what I showed before? Or, you are just tawking?

nah, you just need a light bike that rides well so it's fine if the battery is flat.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

nah, you just need a light bike that rides well so it's fine if the battery is flat.

I own one Still, I prefer some assistance.

It happened to me to pedal each of two heavy e-bikes I own/ed unpowered, either in rough terrain (Trance E+) or upwind (Vado). It was because riding the Giant Auto mode had just been a silly idea (Trance) or the electronics was obsolete at that time and the system hung (Vado).

I have never been out of the battery juice afterwards.

20th July 2020. After having had ridden for 10 km unpowered on Giant Trance E+ through the marshes, lost (the wet phone with GPS went bananas), in torrential rain. Never ever again! (Strava, thank you for helping my memory!) Note: I dropped my e-bike on the wrong side; I had had enough!

 

[PCeBiker]

My whole point was the voltmeter was not needed at all for a high quality mid-drive motor e-bike.

My whole point was that a voltmeter is all that you need to monitor ANY battery on ANY ebike.
Or any battery at all for that matter.

An Duracell AA battery in your flashlight, a car battery, or any rechargeable battery of any kind.
Lipo, NiCad, NI-MH, SLA or a lemon with a zinc nail and copper wire stuck in it.

If you know the parameters of the battery and how to watch the voltmeter, you can assess the condition of the battery.

I personally would rather make that assessment myself, and not be told by a computer what it thinks I aught to know.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

My whole point was that a voltmeter is all that you need to monitor ANY battery on ANY ebike.
Or any battery at all for that matter.

An Duracell AA battery in your flashlight, a car battery, or any rechargeable battery of any kind.
Lipo, NiCad, NI-MH, SLA or a lemon with a zinc nail and copper wire stuck in it.

If you know the parameters of the battery and how to watch the voltmeter, you can assess the condition of the battery.

I personally would rather make that assessment myself, and not be told by a computer what it thinks I aught to know.

How do you apply the voltmeter on any of my batteries that use the "WAKE UP" pin?
Why should I use a voltmeter on my e-bikes if they measure the voltage themselves?
Why should I use a voltmeter if my e-bikes tell me the battery condition precisely?

This is as if you bought a power-meter pedal for your hub-drive e-bike and were telling me: "See? How fantastic! Now I can measure my pedalling power" to which I would just smile and say "Pal, my e-bike has the cadence and power meters as the part of the motor"

P.S. I owned a multimeter and hardly ever used it. No need.

 

[PCeBiker]

If you have the ability to interpret it, the raw data is more reliable than a manufacturers figures in %.

I'm sure you've noticed, eg, that the last 8% on the specialized disappears a lot quicker than the first 8% ? Or you can " drain " the battery then switch it off and restart with another 3% .

Or a 5 year old "100% charged" battery holds less wh / has less range than a new one despite being "97% healthy"

Why does your battery go to sleep completely dead then wake up with 3% charge?

What is the truth?
Is it dead or does it have 3% left?

The raw data is the truth.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Why does your battery go to sleep completely dead then wake up with 3% charge?

What is the truth?
Is it dead or does it have 3% left?

The Specialized system prevents the battery charge drop below 5%. That is, the assistance is cut off and the remaining charge is used to keep the lighting and the control unit on. Therefore, the problem you mention does not occur.

The raw data is the truth.

Show me the graph of the motor power in the function of the battery charge % please. Not interested in the voltmeter. As rude as it might sound, using the voltmeter and expressing the battery capacity in Ah (instead of Wh) are the "poor man things".

You did not answer my question how you measure the voltage of the battery with the "WAKE UP" pin.

 

[PCeBiker]

You did not answer my question how you measure the voltage of the battery with the "WAKE UP" pin.

I don't know how your battery works.

My battery doesn't have a wakeup pin.

If it did, I would delete it and wake it up manually.
The poor man's way.


You wouldn't measure the wake up pin on the battery.
You would measure the input from the controller to the wake up pin.

That is probably not a simple voltage but some kind of data signal that would have to be analyzed by a computer or oscilloscope.

Then you would make a signal emulator to feed into the wake up pin to wake up your battery.

I personally hate computers and would delete everything and put the battery to sleep when I choose, and wake it up when I choose.

I have chosen to put my battery to sleep at 42 volts.

If I really need more battery power, I can lower the nap time voltage to 39 volts so my battery can get a good nights sleep after I get home.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If it did, I would delete it and wake it up manually.

Then my e-bike would not recognize the battery.

PCebiker: I just dream you buy an advanced e-bike and start meddling with it

 

[PCeBiker]

PCebiker: I just dream you buy an advanced e-bike and start meddling with it

I don't want an advanced ebike.

An ebike completely controlled by computers is to much trouble to figure out.

My dream ebike would be nothing more than a motor, a battery and a big ole rheostat controlled by a cable operated twist throttle.

The only computerization I would want would be inside the battery to monitor it only for safety.
I don't want a battery fire.

Why can't they build a battery with a thermal fuse or temperature sensor on every cell inside, so a bad cell can't hide?
Is the extra $10 in parts too much to spend on a $800 battery?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

My dream ebike would be nothing more than a motor, a battery and a big ole rheostat controlled by a cable operated twist throttle.

It's been there already. 1931,

 

[PCeBiker]

I Like It !!!

I Wanna Gits Me One Of Those !!!

I really like the caster/rake angle too !!
Long well supported steering tube.
And a cover on the clutch gears, so it doesn't pull your leg in and rip it off.

I would just upgrade the battery to smaller lighter lithium cells...

 

[PCeBiker]

Fat bikes have been around for a while too,..

 

[Catalyzt]

I'm hoping all the R&D going into electric cars will yield big improvements in battery technology, allowing for a lightweight ebike at a reasonable price. Right now, there are ebikes that are pretty light, but boy are they expensive.

Yeah, I hope so, too! As for R&D, I dunno... from an engineering standpoint, it seems to me that there is no good reason there couldn't be a simple, off-the-shelf FS eMTB (with a simple motor like the E5000, hopefully a hair more efficient) that weighs 42 pounds. If I can shave a 49 pound down to 46 as easily as I did, it should be possible.

Not to get too hung up on the app issue, the other problem with apps, at least in the US, is that they are too invasive. I hate being targeted by anyone for anything, the information that is collected is always abused. I can see that if I lived somewhere else, maybe was younger, or had different social needs, the app could be a cool way to meet and keep in touch with people. And I'm glad Stefan is keeping up with members of EBR who have left the board-- I may even know who he's talking about, good guy!

In the current state of play? Not worth it to me. I value my privacy.

 

[PedalUma]

I made a couple of fat boys last season. The Specialized Fat Boy was a huge pain. I had to get special parts milled to make it happen. I said no three times, and the guy kept asking why. He drilled down to the reasons and then we addressed those.