Moving Away From Heavy E-Bikes

[Catalyzt]

I'm hoping all the R&D going into electric cars will yield big improvements in battery technology, allowing for a lightweight ebike at a reasonable price. Right now, there are ebikes that are pretty light, but boy are they expensive.

Yeah, I hope so, too! As for R&D, I dunno... from an engineering standpoint, it seems to me that there is no good reason there couldn't be a simple, off-the-shelf FS eMTB (with a simple motor like the E5000, hopefully a hair more efficient) that weighs 42 pounds. If I can shave a 49 pound down to 46 as easily as I did, it should be possible.

Not to get too hung up on the app issue, the other problem with apps, at least in the US, is that they are too invasive. I hate being targeted by anyone for anything, the information that is collected is always abused. I can see that if I lived somewhere else, maybe was younger, or had different social needs, the app could be a cool way to meet and keep in touch with people. And I'm glad Stefan is keeping up with members of EBR who have left the board-- I may even know who he's talking about, good guy!

In the current state of play? Not worth it to me. I value my privacy.

 

[PedalUma]

I made a couple of fat boys last season. The Specialized Fat Boy was a huge pain. I had to get special parts milled to make it happen. I said no three times, and the guy kept asking why. He drilled down to the reasons and then we addressed those.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I would just upgrade the battery to smaller lighter lithium cells...

The whole point about the lead acid battery is it does not burn.

 

[PCeBiker]

The whole point about the lead acid battery is it does not burn.

Yeah it does.
Did you ever get that acid splashed on you?
I had a pair of jeans dissolve when I got splashed.

SLA is a bit more contained and AGM has the weave to help keep the acid from splashing.
The power to rate ratio sucks though.

Hydrogen gas given off during charging (or is it discharging?) is VERY explosive.

People have gone blind from getting battery acid splashed in their eyes.
I had a freind that was splashed with battery acid from a car crash.

Either way, impact is not good for ANY type of battery.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I made a couple of fat boys last season. The Specialized Fat Boy was a huge pain. I had to get special parts milled to make it happen. I said no three times, and the guy kept asking why. He drilled down to the reasons and then we addressed those.

Nice-looking bike! Interesting rims. Why the cutouts, and what's the orange stuff peeking through? Some kind of puncture-proofing foam or just a colorful rim liner?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yeah it does.
Did you ever get that acid splashed on you?
I had a pair of jeans dissolve when I got splashed.

SLA is a bit more contained and AGM has the weave to help keep the acid from splashing.
The power to rate ratio sucks though.

Hydrogen gas given off during charging (or is it discharging?) is VERY explosive.

People have gone blind from getting battery acid splashed in their eyes.
I had a freind that was splashed with battery acid from a car crash.

Either way, impact is not good for ANY type of battery.

Of course to all points!

Still the lead acid battery itself does not create the type of fire you get from Li-Ion. You say you want a simple e-bike, with a rheostat. I was there. Now, you are changing your mind and want Li-ion.

 

[PCeBiker]

Still the lead acid battery itself does not create the type of fire you get from Li-Ion.

Yeah, but if they had Li-Ion batteries back in 1931, I'm sure the box would be filled with Li-Ion cells.

I can't read that language, but it looks like it goes 70 km on a charge.
Can you imagine how far it would go with a box full of Li-Ion?

You say you want a simple e-bike, with a rheostat. I was there. Now, you are changing your mind and want Li-ion.

I might change my mind on the rheostat too and go with a simple controller.
Rheostats aren't very efficient.

But no artificial intelligence trying to analyze me.

 

[PedalUma]

Interesting rims

Fat bikes are weird. They often have rims with cutouts and a liner. This one's liner is orange. That is the Specialized set up for the wheels of a FatBoy. It is meant for snow, sand, and muck.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Fat bikes have been around for a while too,..

View attachment 150444

I think the guy needed a ladder to get onto that fat bike. And had to be strongly pushed to start the ride

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Nice-looking bike! Interesting rims. Why the cutouts, and what's the orange stuff peeking through? Some kind of puncture-proofing foam or just a colorful rim liner?

Jeremy, the rim cutouts are a solution towards lightening up a fat bike rim. Both my Specialized FatBoy-90mm wide rims and Haibike Full FatSix-80mm wide rims, have them. In the early years of fatbiking, lots of fatbike owners got creative in the types and colors used in their own rim tape. The white rim tape on the FatBoy is what came on it from Specialized.

With that many holes in the rim, you can imagine the need of an owner going tubeless has to ensure those rims are sealed airtight!

 

[rtp]

Other than I won't cry if I have to lift the bike AND I'm not trying to be a Specialized salesperson...

I intentionally chose an M600 powered bike over the Ultra, and also went out of my way to try an M500-powered bike for a day when I was visiting the EU.
I'm happy I got my X2 with the VESC-based LudiV2 controller, but I literally never run on top 'Ludi' mode (of 3, street, trail and ludi), set it for 9 assistance levels, reduce max current/power and generally ride most of the time on level 2 of 9, occasionally bumping to 3 or 4 of 9 depending on where I'm riding, etc.

I would NOT be interested in purchasing a bike in the US with a fixed max speed of 15kmh or whatever is max EU speed, and this is one of the annoyances of riding my wife's Gazelle or riding with her on occasion when we're on the road - max speed of 20MPH is nonsense in the US.

There's also something fun about 'ride fast by throttle or with low effort' but both for low range reasons, wanting actual exercise, and acknowledging 'this really isn't an electric motorcycle or replacement for my motorcycles,' it's not how I'd ride daily, for my purposes.

I've watched the 'super-light' market on and off, and am less excited by Specialized's over-the-top-anemic SL version vs e.g. Orbea's but it's a relatively new space and there's more to come. The M500 I rode in Prague was overall ok, and there as well, I rarely was using upper power levels.


This is a long thread, but somewhere in there @Stefan Mikes mentioned 'the joy of going from the SL to his normal-powered Specialized.' This is actually my concern on the (anemic-leaning) Specialized SL...unless current models have changed, they may be a bit too lean on the power side, so even you enjoy swapping to the 'more power' one now and then.

So yeah, short version I can see some group of people that not-crazy-powered bikes appeal to. It won't work for the 'I want a mini motorcycle' or 'I want to commute a long ways with no sweat' cases, but I personally might be up for e.g. a 'Luna Ultralight' with M510 with a Ludi controller, or a sanely-priced Orbea or Specialized <next gen> super light depending on the specs.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Jeremy, the rim cutouts are a solution towards lightening up a fat bike rim. Both my Specialized FatBoy-90mm wide rims and Haibike Full FatSix-80mm wide rims, have them. In the early years of fatbiking, lots of fatbike owners got creative in the types and colors used in their own rim tape. The white rim tape on the FatBoy is what came on it from Specialized.

With that many holes in the rim, you can imagine the need of an owner going tubeless has to ensure those rims are sealed airtight!

View attachment 150655

Thanks! Looks like a fun bike. The white tape was a good choice. Surprised tubeless works at all with those rims.

Ballpark, how much net wheel weight do the rim cutouts save, taking into account any weight added by the rim tape?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

This is a long thread, but somewhere in there @Stefan Mikes mentioned 'the joy of going from the SL to his normal-powered Specialized.' This is actually my concern on the (anemic-leaning) Specialized SL...unless current models have changed, they may be a bit too lean on the power side, so even you enjoy swapping to the 'more power' one now and then.

This is the principal difference between the American "big and powerful" and the European "lightweight and nimble". I can only be glad to find some fellow Americans who share my views on cycling

 

[circuitsmith]

I have only skimmed over this long and rapidly growing thread.
My 2 pennies:

My Bafang powered Schwinn MTB weighs 53lb. My compromise of power vs weight.
In my high crime area it's a must that I can carry it up stairs and bring it inside at home.

LiFePo4 batteries are a more fire safe version of lithium, and much more durable than lead-acid.

 

[Gionnirocket]

It doesn't have to be super light or super heavy... Here in the good ol' US of A we have many choices that fit right in the middle.
My bike is 55 lbs and can do 28 mph unlike the lightweight and nimble also known as the anemic and feeble EU bikes... no matter their weight.

I always find it hysterical that people boast about what they are restricted to... as if they had a choice.

 

[mschwett]

…
max speed of 20MPH is nonsense in the US.
…

you mean in your part of the US - and/or in your opinion!

the majority of people who actually commute with e-bikes in the united states are in a handful of densely populated cities - seattle, portland, san francisco, new york, etc. 20mph on the bike infrastructure there is a very reasonable compromise to allow e-bikes full access.

the united states is a large and diverse country, and different places need different rules. but make no mistake - most people riding bikes are in the big cities. nationally something like a half a percent commute on bikes, but there are census tracts around here where that number is 20 or 30 times that!

 

[Gionnirocket]

you mean in your part of the US - and/or in your opinion!

the majority of people who actually commute with e-bikes in the united states are in a handful of densely populated cities - seattle, portland, san francisco, new york, etc. 20mph on the bike infrastructure there is a very reasonable compromise to allow e-bikes full access.

the united states is a large and diverse country, and different places need different rules. but make no mistake - most people riding bikes are in the big cities. nationally something like a half a percent commute on bikes, but there are census tracts around here where that number is 20 or 30 times that!

Well just as we have different speed limits in different parts of any city /state... Do so with ebikes. That doesn't mean that you need to restrict the ebike. My car can easily do 140mph...but I don't, especially when in Manhattan

 

[mschwett]

Well just as we have different speed limits in different parts of any city /state... Do so with ebikes. That doesn't mean that you need to restrict the ebike. My car can easily do 140mph...but I don't, especially when in Manhattan

apples and oranges - one licensed, insured, and registered, the other not. i don’t want that for e-bikes and i don’t think you can have it both ways.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The heavier bike slows down better than the lighter bike.

How so? Better brakes or denying the laws of physics?

 

[Gionnirocket]

apples and oranges - one licensed, insured, and registered, the other not. i don’t want that for e-bikes and i don’t think you can have it both ways.

Not really... I think it comes down to personal responsibility and enforcement.
Hand out some $100 tickets and/or impound a few bikes an see if you still have a problem.