Moving Away From Heavy E-Bikes

[rtp]

Other than I won't cry if I have to lift the bike AND I'm not trying to be a Specialized salesperson...

I intentionally chose an M600 powered bike over the Ultra, and also went out of my way to try an M500-powered bike for a day when I was visiting the EU.
I'm happy I got my X2 with the VESC-based LudiV2 controller, but I literally never run on top 'Ludi' mode (of 3, street, trail and ludi), set it for 9 assistance levels, reduce max current/power and generally ride most of the time on level 2 of 9, occasionally bumping to 3 or 4 of 9 depending on where I'm riding, etc.

I would NOT be interested in purchasing a bike in the US with a fixed max speed of 15kmh or whatever is max EU speed, and this is one of the annoyances of riding my wife's Gazelle or riding with her on occasion when we're on the road - max speed of 20MPH is nonsense in the US.

There's also something fun about 'ride fast by throttle or with low effort' but both for low range reasons, wanting actual exercise, and acknowledging 'this really isn't an electric motorcycle or replacement for my motorcycles,' it's not how I'd ride daily, for my purposes.

I've watched the 'super-light' market on and off, and am less excited by Specialized's over-the-top-anemic SL version vs e.g. Orbea's but it's a relatively new space and there's more to come. The M500 I rode in Prague was overall ok, and there as well, I rarely was using upper power levels.


This is a long thread, but somewhere in there @Stefan Mikes mentioned 'the joy of going from the SL to his normal-powered Specialized.' This is actually my concern on the (anemic-leaning) Specialized SL...unless current models have changed, they may be a bit too lean on the power side, so even you enjoy swapping to the 'more power' one now and then.

So yeah, short version I can see some group of people that not-crazy-powered bikes appeal to. It won't work for the 'I want a mini motorcycle' or 'I want to commute a long ways with no sweat' cases, but I personally might be up for e.g. a 'Luna Ultralight' with M510 with a Ludi controller, or a sanely-priced Orbea or Specialized <next gen> super light depending on the specs.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Jeremy, the rim cutouts are a solution towards lightening up a fat bike rim. Both my Specialized FatBoy-90mm wide rims and Haibike Full FatSix-80mm wide rims, have them. In the early years of fatbiking, lots of fatbike owners got creative in the types and colors used in their own rim tape. The white rim tape on the FatBoy is what came on it from Specialized.

With that many holes in the rim, you can imagine the need of an owner going tubeless has to ensure those rims are sealed airtight!

View attachment 150655

Thanks! Looks like a fun bike. The white tape was a good choice. Surprised tubeless works at all with those rims.

Ballpark, how much net wheel weight do the rim cutouts save, taking into account any weight added by the rim tape?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

This is a long thread, but somewhere in there @Stefan Mikes mentioned 'the joy of going from the SL to his normal-powered Specialized.' This is actually my concern on the (anemic-leaning) Specialized SL...unless current models have changed, they may be a bit too lean on the power side, so even you enjoy swapping to the 'more power' one now and then.

This is the principal difference between the American "big and powerful" and the European "lightweight and nimble". I can only be glad to find some fellow Americans who share my views on cycling

 

[circuitsmith]

I have only skimmed over this long and rapidly growing thread.
My 2 pennies:

My Bafang powered Schwinn MTB weighs 53lb. My compromise of power vs weight.
In my high crime area it's a must that I can carry it up stairs and bring it inside at home.

LiFePo4 batteries are a more fire safe version of lithium, and much more durable than lead-acid.

 

[Gionnirocket]

It doesn't have to be super light or super heavy... Here in the good ol' US of A we have many choices that fit right in the middle.
My bike is 55 lbs and can do 28 mph unlike the lightweight and nimble also known as the anemic and feeble EU bikes... no matter their weight.

I always find it hysterical that people boast about what they are restricted to... as if they had a choice.

 

[mschwett]

…
max speed of 20MPH is nonsense in the US.
…

you mean in your part of the US - and/or in your opinion!

the majority of people who actually commute with e-bikes in the united states are in a handful of densely populated cities - seattle, portland, san francisco, new york, etc. 20mph on the bike infrastructure there is a very reasonable compromise to allow e-bikes full access.

the united states is a large and diverse country, and different places need different rules. but make no mistake - most people riding bikes are in the big cities. nationally something like a half a percent commute on bikes, but there are census tracts around here where that number is 20 or 30 times that!

 

[Gionnirocket]

you mean in your part of the US - and/or in your opinion!

the majority of people who actually commute with e-bikes in the united states are in a handful of densely populated cities - seattle, portland, san francisco, new york, etc. 20mph on the bike infrastructure there is a very reasonable compromise to allow e-bikes full access.

the united states is a large and diverse country, and different places need different rules. but make no mistake - most people riding bikes are in the big cities. nationally something like a half a percent commute on bikes, but there are census tracts around here where that number is 20 or 30 times that!

Well just as we have different speed limits in different parts of any city /state... Do so with ebikes. That doesn't mean that you need to restrict the ebike. My car can easily do 140mph...but I don't, especially when in Manhattan

 

[mschwett]

Well just as we have different speed limits in different parts of any city /state... Do so with ebikes. That doesn't mean that you need to restrict the ebike. My car can easily do 140mph...but I don't, especially when in Manhattan

apples and oranges - one licensed, insured, and registered, the other not. i don’t want that for e-bikes and i don’t think you can have it both ways.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The heavier bike slows down better than the lighter bike.

How so? Better brakes or denying the laws of physics?

 

[Gionnirocket]

apples and oranges - one licensed, insured, and registered, the other not. i don’t want that for e-bikes and i don’t think you can have it both ways.

Not really... I think it comes down to personal responsibility and enforcement.
Hand out some $100 tickets and/or impound a few bikes an see if you still have a problem.

 

[mschwett]

Not really... I think it comes down to personal responsibility and enforcement.
Hand out some $100 tickets and/or impound a few bikes a see if you still have a problem.

i think all the “personal responsibility” people should get together and take “personal responsibility” for obtaining the land or rights needed to connect all the places they want to go, and then personally build all the infrastructure needed, maintain it, etc!

but this is off topic, and interesting debate for another place and time.

 

[Gionnirocket]

i think all the “personal responsibility” people should get together and take “personal responsibility” for obtaining the land or rights needed to connect all the places they want to go, and then personally build all the infrastructure needed, maintain it, etc!

but this is off topic, and interesting debate for another place and time.

I'm not sure what point it is that you're trying to make... But I see people speeding and driving recklessly every day (sometimes I'm looking in the mirror )
No one is crying restrict all cars to 55mph.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Thanks! Looks like a fun bike. The white tape was a good choice. Surprised tubeless works at all with those rims.

Ballpark, how much net wheel weight do the rim cutouts save, taking into account any weight added by the rim tape?

The white rim tape was/is OEM Specialized. They even took the time and effort to emboss the "Specialized" logo all over it. It's too bad they didn't invest in better rear hubs as well as a better pressed-in crankset; both things plagued many Fatboys of the first generation (I guess I was one of the lucky ones who has had problems with neither).

I never tried tubeless on that bike as I've read other owner's experiences with this rim & tubeless was not too successful. Too many leaks. I've found the fit between the tire bead and the rim is not as tight as on the H-Bike rims.

Honestly have no idea what kind of weight savings is gained by those holes. I think it's kind of silly for a bike mfgr to be concerned about saving a few ounces of aluminum on a bike that can run anywhere from 40 to 60 plus pounds!

 

[Gionnirocket]

The white rim tape was/is OEM Specialized. They even took the time and effort to emboss the "Specialized" logo all over it. It's too bad they didn't invest in better rear hubs as well as a better pressed-in crankset; both things plagued many Fatboys of the first generation (I guess I was one of the lucky ones who has had problems with neither).

I never tried tubeless on that bike as I've read other owner's experiences with this rim & tubeless was not too successful. Too many leaks. I've found the fit between the tire bead and the rim is not as tight as on the H-Bike rims.

Honestly have no idea what kind of weight savings is gained by those holes. I think it's kind of silly for a bike mfgr to be concerned about saving a few ounces of aluminum on a bike that can run anywhere from 40 to 60 plus pounds!

Well in addition to the weight there's also the material savings for the manufacturer. That's a lot of savings in aluminum which help keep cost down without sacrificing strength.
Then there's the environmental impact when using less..

 

[PSm]

Well just as we have different speed limits in different parts of any city /state... Do so with ebikes. That doesn't mean that you need to restrict the ebike. My car can easily do 140mph...but I don't, especially when in Manhattan

As an experiment, I modified the settings on my Ride1UP Roadster SS e-bike so that my EggRider display controller has the “Eco” PAS range set to the EU 25kph (15.5mph) max assist speed, and the “Sport” PAS range set to 45kph (28 mph) max assist speed.

A surprise to me, the 15.5 mph limited assist still worked out fine, and is a great setting when trying to hypermile with only the internal 250 wh battery and keeping the e-bike weight down to ~ 35 lbs (not using external battery, and not carrying a spare battery, which pushes it to ~42 lbs). I can still accelerate up to 25+ mph on the flats with my own power, but keep power consumption down to 2-4 wh/mile depending on terrain. And a lightweight bike is different experience, that I much prefer.

Found a non-profit place to donate my 50 lb geared e-bike that’s been sitting unused the past few years, so going to finally do that!

 

[mschwett]

…
Honestly have no idea what kind of weight savings is gained by those holes. I think it's kind of silly for a bike mfgr to be concerned about saving a few ounces of aluminum on a bike that can run anywhere from 40 to 60 plus pounds!

just looked at some articles where people drilled them themselves, and the weight went from 1167 to 936g per rim; that’s 231g per rim, which is pretty amazing lol, over a pound of aluminum rotating mass far from the hub. sure, not that much on a 40lb bike but it looks interesting too.

 

[Gionnirocket]

As an experiment, I modified the settings on my Ride1UP Roadster SS e-bike so that my EggRider display controller has the “Eco” PAS range set to the EU 25kph (15.5mph) max assist speed, and the “Sport” PAS range set to 45kph (28 mph) max assist speed.

A surprise to me, the 15.5 mph limited assist still worked out fine, and is a great setting when trying to hypermile with only the internal 250 wh battery and keeping the e-bike weight down to ~ 35 lbs (not using external battery, and not carrying a spare battery, which pushes it to ~42 lbs). I can still accelerate up to 25+ mph on the flats with my own power, but keep power consumption down to 2-4 wh/mile depending on terrain. And a lightweight bike is different experience, that I much prefer.

Found a non-profit place to donate my 50 lb geared e-bike that’s been sitting unused the past few years, so going to finally do that!

That's great... Many times less is more.
I'm just saying don't restrict those that less isn't enough for their needs.

 

[PSm]

That's great... Many times less is more.
I'm just saying don't restrict those that less isn't enough for their needs.

% agree. Having the option to use available higher assist and speeds when I want is

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Honestly have no idea what kind of weight savings is gained by those holes. I think it's kind of silly for a bike mfgr to be concerned about saving a few ounces of aluminum on a bike that can run anywhere from 40 to 60 plus pounds!

Looks kinda silly to me, too. Hard to imagine a noticeable reduction in the weight-dependent resistances (slope and rolling) in a bike this heavy. And with no suspension, unsprung weight isn't a consideration.

Maybe the point is to improve responsiveness in acceleration and braking by partially offsetting the HUGE rotational inertias in those giant tires. But even there, hard to imagine the rim cutouts making a noticeable difference.

 

[rtp]

you mean in your part of the US - and/or in your opinion!

Yep in many parts of the US and indeed in my opinion. A speed limit is at least more sense than arbitrary nominal power.

the majority of people who actually commute with e-bikes in the united states are in a handful of densely populated cities - seattle, portland, san francisco, new york, etc. 20mph on the bike infrastructure there is a very reasonable compromise to allow e-bikes full access.

the united states is a large and diverse country, and different places need different rules. but make no mistake - most people riding bikes are in the big cities. nationally something like a half a percent commute on bikes, but there are census tracts around here where that number is 20 or 30 times that!

I’ve ridden motorcycles through NYC and good portions of the country as well as overseas and off-road. For a while, I really liked the Suzuki DRZ-400S, as it was light, had good suspension travel for real off-road, and was overall a fun bike. Of course, everything is a compromise - the lighter the bike (or car… tend to drive light vehicles with some power), the more impacted by wind or trucks passing you on the road. It had another issue in that it was top-speed/top-end limited by it’s lack of a 6th gear (or changing it’s top gearing), which occasionally became a real issue when at times, you NEED a burst of speed to actually avoid problems/careless drivers, etc.

So no, I don’t believe in the artificial forced limit of top speed being mechanically/electrically enforced, and no, I don’t agree that 20mph should be that limit in the US. That is different, however, versus being entirely fine if some specific areas (not the entire bike) have posted speed limits. I have no issue n trails for example being posted as 15mph speed limit, but when then going onto roads, which for much of the US ‘bike infrastructure’ is a sad joke, I’ll follow the posted speed limits but don’t expect to have the bike force me to some arbitrary reduced limit, etc.