Mid Drive Bike Suggestions

[JRA]

Thanks for that tip. I'm going to do a bit of work to it once winter is over so ill check that out. No issues long term with it?

There is more potential long term damage from the lack of grease that the motors I have popped apart have from the factory. Steel gears need lubrication and the very minimal amount of lithium grease I have seen in there in dabs wasn't even really doing anything as far as where the actually mesh. The grease I mentioned has some flow to it so it will distribute itself into the works better so with better coverage over time the gears will last much longer as well as become more quiet, not silent though.

There is a video on the tube that I saw awhile ago of a guy who packed the gear area with red lithium but I would imagine it wasn't a good idea that actually made things more sluggish than necessary as well as potential overflow in the electronics. As long as the grease has some flow for distribution in there you don't need a whole lot. Also because it is an enclosed system an initial application should last a very long time especially because the grease is heat resistant also.

I've heard that the sap is running back there so winter might be over sometime, I grew up in VT so I know how it can tend to linger, but the motor is easy to take out and service which is the beauty of them to begin with. The only special tool I needed was the 16pt. wrench/socket to remove the chainring spider.

 

[m@Robertson]

The core contention that hubs are easier to ride than mids is correct. If you want a brainless solution - something you can just jump on and go, and which requires effectively zero maintenance - then a direct drive hub is the answer. Unfortunately a DD hub also has the least torque of any motor type, and if you want it to climb hills equally with an alternative then you need to pour on more power, which means bigger battery and bigger (really big) motor. Typical non-insane DD hub provides 45-65 Nm of torque.

So you want to keep the ease of use of a hub but want more torque. You switch to a geared hub motor, which has gears inside of it to apply an internal reduction for more torque. The most you can get out of a geared hub is a rated 80-85Nm. And you run face first into the overall reality of a hub motor when you hear it laboring its life away as it moans up a hill: Hubs power thru the axle not the gears so they are single speed. So... the hub might work fine in hills if you are a small person and the hills aren't too steep (both, preferably). Or it might not work fine, but it works adequately. No matter what a hub is out of its element in hills. BUT its definitely easier to use because you don't have any concerns about shifting.

Next we come to the mid drive. It uses gears. Its better in hills for this reason. A mid typically has higher torque than any hub is ever going to have (absent say a 3kw QSv3 thats looks like a land mine and is just as heavy) with 120 Nm for the BBS02, 160Nm for the BBSHD and Ultra, 180Nm for the Cyc X1 and even more for some crazy stuff not on the menu here. Of all the options, a BBSHD is probably the best as it is a) programmable, b) has loads of aftermarket support and c) can be run at half its capacity and still give you strong assist. A motor running at half capacity will effectively last forever. Certainly longer than anything running at the edge of its abilities (which is where a BBS02 is likely to be).

Each of these motor types is ideal for a certain use case. The most versatile is the mid drive. It can be used anywhere. But it also requires some intelligence and learning on the part of the rider to pay attention to their shifting that is not necessary for a hub.

Mongoose Envoy – Chapter 3 (Motor Types)

Introduction: The Mongoose Envoy Project Chapter 1: The Raised Rear Deck Chapter 2: Better Brakes Chapter 3: What Kind of Motor? (you are here) Chapter 4:&nbs…

talesontwowheels.com

How To Ride a Mid Drive Ebike Without Breaking It

If you can ride a bicycle you already know how to ride a hub drive ebike. Not so a mid drive. Particularly a powerful one that can tear your chain apart. Fear not. The rules are simple.

talesontwowheels.com

 

[jkvt]

There is more potential long term damage from the lack of grease that the motors I have popped apart have from the factory. Steel gears need lubrication and the very minimal amount of lithium grease I have seen in there in dabs wasn't even really doing anything as far as where the actually mesh. The grease I mentioned has some flow to it so it will distribute itself into the works better so with better coverage over time the gears will last much longer as well as become more quiet, not silent though.

There is a video on the tube that I saw awhile ago of a guy who packed the gear area with red lithium but I would imagine it wasn't a good idea that actually made things more sluggish than necessary as well as potential overflow in the electronics. As long as the grease has some flow for distribution in there you don't need a whole lot. Also because it is an enclosed system an initial application should last a very long time especially because the grease is heat resistant also.

I've heard that the sap is running back there so winter might be over sometime, I grew up in VT so I know how it can tend to linger, but the motor is easy to take out and service which is the beauty of them to begin with. The only special tool I needed was the 16pt. wrench/socket to remove the chainring spider.

Yep, just heard the sugarhouses are starting to open up. Somehow hit 64 degrees today which is nuts. I'll probably still hold off until April at some point. As unlikely as it is to have any real downtime, I'd rather just risk it when we get to a point where snow is a lot less common.

 

[traderfjp]

Ok. After reading everything I could find I ended up with a Biktrik Juggernaut Duo 2 in a step through design. I looked at a lot of other bikes but many had frames that were too big or the bike I wanted was sold out. My first choice was from Luna cycle but their m620 bike was sold out. I did get the m620 Ultra motor on the Biktrix. Now I'm upgrading a lot of the lower end components found on the bike. Went from an Altus 9 speed to a SRAM 12speed and wireless axs shifting, tossing the spring loaded front fork for a Masterson Comp fork, added a Cloud 9 cruiser seat, new bars, new kickstand and a few accessories. The old kickstand snapped off. Overall it's a nice bike. With discount I'm at 3100.00 which was a lot considering the components the bike comes with.

 

[jkvt]

Nice! Solid bike, for sure!

 

[traderfjp]

Nice! Solid bike, for sure!

We shall see. So far both bikes came with marginally working back brakes, and the box came damaged with a huge scratch on the bike and the kickstand snapped off. Very low end components but I wanted a step through with the m620 motor. The bike is in the shop. I'll will update how things go with customer service. A bit of a nightmare trying to find a reputable shop that wants to work on my bikes.

 

[jkvt]

Ah, sounds like the bike had a rough trip here. So just one thing to say about the drivetrain. I have no personal experience with anything more than a 10 speed drivetrain, but from what I understand having read through some posts, you may not want to go too high end. Cheaper components like the chainring and cassette tend to be heavy steel, vs lightweight but more fragile. These motors have a lot of torque and can chew up drivetrains (eventually) so heavy steel and cheaper to replace might be better in the log run. Also when you're starting to get more and more gears, meaning the chain is narrower, there is some thought out there that it would be more prone to snapping. I remember reading it after I put in my order for a bike with a 10-speed. At the time I thought I made a mistake not going with an 8 or 9 but so far so good but figured I'd mention.

 

[JRA]

@jkvt, saw your request for a plus wheelset but if you post in the for sale/wanted section it doesn't have a response option? Anyway not sure what your budget is but this is my go to source,

https://lacemine29.com/

Mike builds the best wheels out there IMNSHO and and how to fit them to a clients needs. Tell him Bigwheel sent you!

 

[jkvt]

Thanks for the suggestion! I haven't been on in a few days so just saw this, but just put in an order for some wheels from the same factory I ordered the bike from. It looked like shipping was going to be prohibitively expensive, but it turned out not to be.

 

[traderfjp]

Ah, sounds like the bike had a rough trip here. So just one thing to say about the drivetrain. I have no personal experience with anything more than a 10 speed drivetrain, but from what I understand having read through some posts, you may not want to go too high end. Cheaper components like the chainring and cassette tend to be heavy steel, vs lightweight but more fragile. These motors have a lot of torque and can chew up drivetrains (eventually) so heavy steel and cheaper to replace might be better in the log run. Also when you're starting to get more and more gears, meaning the chain is narrower, there is some thought out there that it would be more prone to snapping. I remember reading it after I put in my order for a bike with a 10-speed. At the time I thought I made a mistake not going with an 8 or 9 but so far so good but figured I'd mention.

The mechanic at the bike shop is very good. He thought the narrower chain to be as strong as what I have now. I have to watch stretching but it takes a lot of riding. I think if you know how to shift and when to shift the drivetrain will last a long time. A geared hub would be best but there are negatives to everything. The 12spd is an nx cassette. All steel and they run around 120.00 where the GX is around 230.00 so I'm thinking long term. With axs the shits are fast and precise which is what you want with an ebike. The app allows some cool tricks with shifting. I'll have a 9k bike once done for a lot less. I'm very excited.

 

[Ken M]

I live in the mountains of NC and wanted a bike with front forks, and a minimum of 1000w and 120nm torque with the battery integrated into the down tube for under 3600.00. I need a bike that can climb steep grades but nothing too razy. We are buying two bikes and we need a smaller frame. Minimum seat height no more than 31". I would appreciate any suggestions.

Buy a Sondors model with the Bafang M620 / Ultra. Regardless that the 250W EU mid-drives are good for mtn bikes if you plan to use the bike for transportation you will learn to desire the higher power the US regulations allow.

 

[jkvt]

@JRA I found this:

Does that looks pretty accurate to you how the grease is put in there and quantity? I was a little surprised he didn't put any right on the teeth, but it sounds like it would seep into them pretty quick.

Thanks!

 

[JRA]

@JRA I found this:

Does that looks pretty accurate to you how the grease is put in there and quantity? I was a little surprised he didn't put any right on the teeth, but it sounds like it would seep into them pretty quick.

Thanks!

Yup, nothing runs like a Deere! He put alot more in there than I did in mine and after reading the comments from him re his long term use it makes me want to pop mine apart again and put in more? While mine quieted down alot it still is growly while high torque hill climbing. Also I didn't pop the seals on the bearings and add grease to them with red lithium bearing grease. Not a long project to do now that I have done it a few times so I probably will re-visit it soon. Will be good to take a look in there and see just how the stuff I added 500 miles ago is doing anyway.

Interesting that it is not recommended for use with nylon gears. Not an issue with the M620 of course but without that knowledge I probably would have used the CH grease in a TSDZ2 if I had one apart. My son and I just put this one together from parts yesterday for him to take back to Canada and use to access fishing spots better.

I still think that bang for buck the TSDZ2 is a great DIY system. Easy to adapt and you can buy one for under a grand usd all in.

 

[jkvt]

That's a nice looking bike. I keep hearing more about those other motors. Might have to check one out for the next project whenever that is. And that is an incredible view.

 

[jkvt]

@JRA for what it's worth - did this and the motor is much quieter. Night and day. Can hear it slightly now, but that's about it. I haven't strained it too much yet so maybe it'll make a bit more noise on a steep hill but regardless. It's like a totally different machine now. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[tomjasz]

After selling and supporting BBSHD motors since their intro, and owning 3 in addition to BBS01, BBS01B, BBS02, BBS02B, and helping a fella I donated a TSDZ2 conversion bike and motor I'm all about the BBSHD. It can be dumbed done for even longer life. 28A from 30A won't show any real performance loss. My ONLY caveat are the "new" complete kits in with proprietary batteries. 9-C w/starorade, cooling fins experiment will begin soon. We'll see how it compares with a 500W BBS02B on a steep bridge incline, both 02B and 9-C with internal temperature readings. And CA3 data.

HERES A 625 hack using BBSHD controller.

 

[Kayakguy]

The core contention that hubs are easier to ride than mids is correct. If you want a brainless solution - something you can just jump on and go, and which requires effectively zero maintenance - then a direct drive hub is the answer. Unfortunately a DD hub also has the least torque of any motor type, and if you want it to climb hills equally with an alternative then you need to pour on more power, which means bigger battery and bigger (really big) motor. Typical non-insane DD hub provides 45-65 Nm of torque.

So you want to keep the ease of use of a hub but want more torque. You switch to a geared hub motor, which has gears inside of it to apply an internal reduction for more torque. The most you can get out of a geared hub is a rated 80-85Nm. And you run face first into the overall reality of a hub motor when you hear it laboring its life away as it moans up a hill: Hubs power thru the axle not the gears so they are single speed. So... the hub might work fine in hills if you are a small person and the hills aren't too steep (both, preferably). Or it might not work fine, but it works adequately. No matter what a hub is out of its element in hills. BUT its definitely easier to use because you don't have any concerns about shifting.

Next we come to the mid drive. It uses gears. Its better in hills for this reason. A mid typically has higher torque than any hub is ever going to have (absent say a 3kw QSv3 thats looks like a land mine and is just as heavy) with 120 Nm for the BBS02, 160Nm for the BBSHD and Ultra, 180Nm for the Cyc X1 and even more for some crazy stuff not on the menu here. Of all the options, a BBSHD is probably the best as it is a) programmable, b) has loads of aftermarket support and c) can be run at half its capacity and still give you strong assist. A motor running at half capacity will effectively last forever. Certainly longer than anything running at the edge of its abilities (which is where a BBS02 is likely to be).

Each of these motor types is ideal for a certain use case. The most versatile is the mid drive. It can be used anywhere. But it also requires some intelligence and learning on the part of the rider to pay attention to their shifting that is not necessary for a hub.

Mongoose Envoy – Chapter 3 (Motor Types)

Introduction: The Mongoose Envoy Project Chapter 1: The Raised Rear Deck Chapter 2: Better Brakes Chapter 3: What Kind of Motor? (you are here) Chapter 4:&nbs…

talesontwowheels.com

How To Ride a Mid Drive Ebike Without Breaking It

If you can ride a bicycle you already know how to ride a hub drive ebike. Not so a mid drive. Particularly a powerful one that can tear your chain apart. Fear not. The rules are simple.

talesontwowheels.com

My last acoustic bike was a Trek hybrid from the pawnshop. Quite a nice bike, as it turned out. All my bikes (after the childhood one-speeds) had a derailier, so I was quite used to shifting down at stops. My first ebike (mid-motor) came with a Nexus 7 speed IGH (I'd been interested in that technology for a while), and I have grown very fond of it. I still shift down when stopping out of habit--but also because I want to be ready to take off if the light changes before I've stopped; but sometimes make it a point not to, because it shifts beautifully at a standstill. The only constraint is that you should ease off the pedaling when shifting, though shifting while pedaling is okay as long as you aren't really jamming on the pedals.

I also read that the IGH is less efficient, but I haven't noticed that in any significant way. I'm not even sure what that means. And some say shifting is slower, but I dispute that. Going up or down the gears, it's "click-shift"(or is it "shift-click?") and you're in the next gear (even skip over intervening gears if you want to). You don't have to wait for the chain to climb up or down the cogs to complete the shift. Okay, enough of that, as IGH is discussed in other threads.

 

[m@Robertson]

Okay, enough of that, as IGH is discussed in other threads.

Not quite enough just yet I had an IGH bike myself - a Luna Fixed with a low power 400w mid motor (from the first batch. They are 500w now), a 3-spd Shimano IGH and a Gates belt drive. It was like owning a spaceship. No grease. No grime. Silent. Smooth. I was sold on the tech. Remarkable stuff. But cost of admission (not to mention frame and chainline issues) make it a difficult build prospect if you want a really good one.. My Bullitt has the required chainstay break to allow me to do one, and someday if I am bored of a bike that works perfectly as-is and I have two thousand dollars burning a hole in my pocket I may convert it.

I'm all about the BBSHD. It can be dumbed done for even longer life. ... 9-C w/starorade, cooling fins experiment will begin soon. We'll see how it compares with a 500W BBS02B on a steep bridge incline, both 02B and 9-C with internal temperature readings. And CA3 data.

I am building BBSHD Bike #6 right now. I'd say most if not all of my bikes are down-rated. I keep throttle at full blast (30a? Yes please) but pedal assist is dialed waaaay back and heavily tuned. On my Bullitt it peaks at about 400w on PAS9. Thats partly because I have it set to aggressively cut assist back (40%) with fast crankarm rpms.

I found in tests in Fresno in record heat (110+) on a street-driven bike going full Class 3 (much stronger PAS for long city blocks, with stops and starts so lots of amps pouring out) I was seeing casing temps at 165 degrees. With heat sinks, I got the surface temp down to 135 in identical conditions. Very much looking forward to your tests as measuring casing temp is indirect at best; measuring success by inference. Also real curious as to your heat sink choices.

I have another batch of 100 of the bare alloy 30mm-wide fins on the way now that this new bike is getting built. I don't even consider leaving the motor as-is anymore.

Heat Sinks For the BBSHD Ebike Mid-Drive

Not so long ago, someone asked whether heat sinks had ever been applied to the BBSHD with any success. This reminded me to document what I have done for posterity’s sake. I turned a motor w…

talesontwowheels.com

 

[PedalUma]

@traderfjp, What did you end up doing? I also live in an area with big hills. How did it workout for you? It took me a while to get up on the learning curve by screwing up. At first I did not know that less is more. I had no clue. That took a year to get over and a few more to refine. You cannot just put beefier strings (more) on a banjo to enhance it. Everything takes balance. Check out this cockpit. This bike was done without any zip ties.

 

[PedalUma]

@traderfjp, What did you end up doing? I also live in an area with big hills. How did it workout for you? It took me a while to get up on the learning curve by screwing up. At first I did not know that less is more. I had no clue. That took a year to get over and a few more to refine. You cannot just put beefier strings (more) on a banjo to enhance it. Everything takes balance. Check out this cockpit. This bike was done without any zip ties.
View attachment 117639

Another one, Charcoal Grey Metallic came in today. A third is a few weeks out. Teal. Galls love this bike. I had the seat up on this test ride. I will route the wire to the battery better on the next, this one is too short and obvious. More screw-ups and learning daily.