Karmic - Karmic Koben, Press - PR - Praise - Critique

[J.R.]

I am all for hearing all sides of a story. I honestly don't see where people calling me "negative" and I respond that I'm positive, that I am working toward good, and that promoting this campaign is the real negative, I don't see any of that being disrespectful.

I mean all due respect.

promoting this campaign is the real negative

That line is disingenuous. No one is promoting here, it's due diligence to provide information of all publications. If you feel several members misunderstand your posts, perhaps it's your post or the way it's worded.

 

[Ann M.]

Folks, since this thread was started to focus on the Karmic Koben Press/PR, let's keep the discussion there. This thread is NOT about crowdfunding in general. If that is everyone's interest, then create such a thread, but don't keep overlaying that theme over each individual CF campaign (Sonders/Wave, etc.) to the point that the specifics of the particular bike are obliterated. That is what is happening here. The problem might be that there really isn't much to say about Karmic Koben PR since the announced changes in partnership and battery until Hong or someone else associated with the campaign comes forth with new information. Any further personal squabbling will be deleted.

 

[J.R.]

Not a value judgment on any person involved in the Koben campaign, just a sad note to it with 72 hours left. This campaign reached $305,000 before the announcement that Hong and Neal (founders) had split, is now at $248,000.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hongquan/the-kben-a-modern-electric-bike-for-the-human-race

A chart showing the rise and fall:
http://crowdlogs.com/project/the-kben-a-modern-electric-bike-for-the-human-race

I'll update this thread at the end of the campaign.

 

[pxpaulx]

On a more positive note, Hong just announced the new battery partner as hi tech energy, who makes the batteries for stromer, Grace and others. He stated they are looking for a stronger US presence in their partnership.

I will admit I am still on the fence, this is encouraging news that might move me to stick with the campaign. Whether October or next April, this bike is a next year use proposition for me either way.

Perhaps the new news will provide a final small bump to the campaign.

 

[J.R.]

On a more positive note, Hong just announced the new battery partner as hi tech energy, who makes the batteries for stromer, Grace and others. He stated they are looking for a stronger US presence in their partnership.

I will admit I am still on the fence, this is encouraging news that might move me to stick with the campaign. Whether October or next April, this bike is a next year use proposition for me either way.

Perhaps the new news will provide a final small bump to the campaign.

The fence sitters are the unknown quantity in it now. How many other backers are sitting with their finger on the cancel button for the last minute?

The new battery news is great and shows Hong's commitment to advancing this project. At the very least the battery should be high quality. I still keep one eye on this campaign, that's due to Hong being a good manager.

 

[J.R.]

"268 backers pledged $259,385 to help bring this project to life."

This campaign had issues, there's no doubt. Hong had integrity, honesty and class through this process, I say that because I know. I spoke to Hong on the phone the week of his split with Neal and even though I removed backing from the project he kept in contact with me. Classy guy!

I hope Karmic bikes is a reality in 2016, I'm still looking for a new bike. I wish Hong and his backers continued success.

I'll do my best to update the community on Karmic periodically.

 

[pxpaulx]

I was back and forth all week on the campaign. Ultimately decided if I wanted to pull out I would have when the change was announced a week ago. I like everything I have seen from Hong and Karmic, and will sit back and wait for a good while now!

 

[noshortcuts]

I had a chance to ride the Koben locally. By the time of ride day the campaign price had already gone up to 2k. I decided not to do the free and fun ride. Why? Because in crowdfunding we are along for the ride and never know what we will receive or how it will compare to the marketing (or even a free ride). Why tempt myself further towards the purchase? Projected retail is 2.4k, right?. I'd rather pay the extra 400 and get a bike that is in final production with a set delivery date than buy something that can have the components and delivery date continue to change until the end.......... As for what's happened since: the whole point of this bike was the patented battery with lifetime service. Right? So we are left with a super nice guy and a descent bike project that must keep evolving, but the real winning part is gone (the battery).

 

[J.R.]

The battery was the "new tech" here. I was in at $1600.00 for the S and that could still be a good buy, but at least for now I'm done with crowd-funding. I really did my due-diligence on this bike and it's team of Hong and Neal, it was a big deal for me to back a CF bike, generally I'm a skeptic of such things. This was my first and last.

Just for kicks I checked in on Copenhagen Wheel and after years (2012?) they are promising to start shipping this month 6/2015.

I had a chance to ride the Koben locally. By the time of ride day the campaign price had already gone up to 2k. I decided not to do the free and fun ride. Why? Because in crowdfunding we are along for the ride and never know what we will receive or how it will compare to the marketing (or even a free ride). Why tempt myself further towards the purchase? Projected retail is 2.4k, right?. I'd rather pay the extra 400 and get a bike that is in final production with a set delivery date than buy something that can have the components and delivery date continue to change until the end.......... As for what's happened since: the whole point of this bike was the patented battery with lifetime service. Right? So we are left with a super nice guy and a descent bike project that must keep evolving, but the real winning part is gone (the battery).

 

[pxpaulx]

I had a chance to ride the Koben locally. By the time of ride day the campaign price had already gone up to 2k. I decided not to do the free and fun ride. Why? Because in crowdfunding we are along for the ride and never know what we will receive or how it will compare to the marketing (or even a free ride). Why tempt myself further towards the purchase? Projected retail is 2.4k, right?. I'd rather pay the extra 400 and get a bike that is in final production with a set delivery date than buy something that can have the components and delivery date continue to change until the end.......... As for what's happened since: the whole point of this bike was the patented battery with lifetime service. Right? So we are left with a super nice guy and a descent bike project that must keep evolving, but the real winning part is gone (the battery).

I decided to stick with the campaign and fund, but I got in at the first level on an S as well - if I were at a higher level that likely would not have been the case. Since you're local when the time comes and the bike is available you're saving on shipping as well (though have to pay taxes). I figured I would take a risk on this one, it is a pretty big one but I'm confident Hong will come through with a great bike.

 

[EbikeR2]

....and I went to Atlantic City once 20 years ago, never went back. I have no desire to go to LV or AC, I'd rather buy a new ebike or some new chrome for the H-D!

What's the realistic shipping date for Koben S? 30-35 lbs? They pull that off and I'd be a buyer.

 

[J.R.]

What's the realistic shipping date for Koben S? 30-35 lbs? They pull that off and I'd be a buyer.

I'm not sure when the bike will ship I haven't kept up with this project. With the new high-tech battery gone I guess I lost a lot of interest in it. The weight of 35 lbs was the prototype, the projected weight of the final production bike was closer to 40 and with changes to battery I suspect they will come in around 42 lb or so. Still not bad.

 

[EbikeR2]

I'm not sure when the bike will ship I haven't kept up with this project. With the new high-tech battery gone I guess I lost a lot of interest in it. The weight of 35 lbs was the prototype, the projected weight of the final production bike was closer to 40 and with changes to battery I suspect they will come in around 42 lb or so. Still not bad.

Feels like we're still so early in the e-bike game -- like we are at iPhone 3G levels. Can't wait for the iPhone 6 type e-bike! Maybe in 4-5 years. Thanks for update.

 

[Ann M.]

There's always that allure of the newer/better/more powerful model, but the best ebike is the one that you're going to get on and ride today. If you wait and wait and wait for the so called best new thing, you'll always be waiting and then how many miles of fun and health have you missed? Get in now and when a better innovation comes along, sell or pass on your current bike to another happy rider - it's a win-win choice rather than a sit and wait choice.

 

[George S.]

There's been a creative explosion in ebikes this year, which mostly means a whole lot more choice at the low end of the market, and very refined ebikes at the top. On top of that there are really nice kits to adapt almost any bike you have or want. Some weight is going to be a good thing, for a faster type of bike. You want a sturdy frame, you may want suspension components, plus you want good brakes. Most people want larger batteries, if they have the option. The tire and tube choices reflect specific issues with ebikes. Rims tend to be heavier.

If you have a specific reason for wanting a light bike, you might ask about that. There are ways to break the bikes down, some better than others, for transport.

 

[Cameron Newland]

I've been testing a Karmic Koben S for the past week and will post a little review on Overvolted.com later today. Though I'm not really a fan of rigid-frame ebikes, the Koben really grew on me.

Also, I was riding my road bike past a big park here in San Francisco a week ago and happened upon a Bernie Sanders rally, and there was a young guy at the rally who had a base model (single-speed, 36 lb.) Koben. When I picked it up, I couldn't believe how lightweight it was! He said he hadn't had any problems climbing moderate hills even though he's only got one gear – must be that torquey motor!

 

[George S.]

http://overvolted.com/

@Cameron Newland

You know the European mid-drives so I wonder if Bafang is in that game with the Max.

 

[Hong]

He said he hadn't had any problems climbing moderate hills even though he's only got one gear – must be that torquey motor!

That's the best kept secret of the Koben.

Look forward to your thoughts on the Koben S. I don't think there are very many forum members who backed us, but hope the ones who did are happy with the results.

 

[Cameron Newland]

http://overvolted.com/

@Cameron Newland

You know the European mid-drives so I wonder if Bafang is in that game with the Max.

I love the Max. The torque-sensing is as good as any system out there, the unit provides more torque than the competition (and I can feel the difference), and its range is phenomenal (on-par with Bosch and Yamaha). Since I have a 500W direct-drive hub motor ebike as my daily driver, I was amazed at the increase in range on the Koben S (with Bafang Max mid-drive) over my bike. I'm lucky to get 25 miles of range because I live in a city with lots of hilly, but with the Max drive, I think 60 miles is easily achievable if you stay on the lower pedal-assist modes. I also found that the Max, though not completely silent, was quieter than the Bosch system.

The only downside I can see on the Bafang Max would be that because it has a regular-sized chainring (instead of the tiny 15T or 18T on the Bosch drive), the Max motor will probably have to rely more on its reduction gears in order to spin the motor in the ideal RPM range than the Bosch system does, so those internal reduction gears might need replacement earlier in the motor's life vs. a Bosch motor. Joe at Motostrano says that the Bosch system is pretty much indestructible. He's sold dozens or perhaps hundreds of them and his customers have had very little mechanical trouble. The Bafang Max is really promising, but we don't have that anecdotal data on its reliability quite yet. With the immenent introduction of the Karmic Koben and the Biktrix MonteCapro to the US market, we'll soon have more Max-equipped bikes out there in the wild to get some anecdotal reliability data on.

 

[George S.]

@Cameron Newland

I really respect your opinion. I guess I am not surprised. The BBSHD is in a class by itself. Unfortunately, Bafang has a real monopoly in the DIY MD market. But it’s tough to see a 1500 watt motor ever being mainstream, and it really doesn’t fit in very well with what people want to do for trail access. You can sell the HD in the US, where anything goes...

On the other hand, the factory bike world is full of competitors and Bafang figures to bring a lot to the table. I don’t know what the custom frame and drive costs, but I think it opens the door for CF innovators and small scale producers like Biktrix and Karmic.

I was in the original campaign until they swapped the 02 for the Max. I remember the incredible problems Bafang has with the 02, and didn’t want the aggravation of a developmental product from Bafang. But they took a full year to get it right, so credit to Bafang.

Bafang is dominant in DIY. More and more small manufacturers are using their hub drives, from Storm to Juiced. And if the Max is a solid drive for reasonable amounts of money, it kind of rounds out the product offerings. You can go on Endless Sphere and look at the threads from a couple of years ago, when the BBS02 came out. You would have thought this was a company that was in way over their head. A year ago they were still messing with the controller, using marginal parts. Now they have a bunch of highly regarded products. It’s quite a story. Says a lot about Chinese products and the trend in world markets.

Thanks for the detailed assessment. Looks solid.