Karmic - Karmic Koben, Press - PR - Praise - Critique

[George S.]

They started out with this Max prototype, then came in with the BBS02. The Max is just an unknown quantity. It's clearly aimed at Bosch. It seems to be set to a European standard of power, at 350W. Up to now, BBS02 has been open, and people run it at huge power. Not clear if this is going to be closed. It's not clear how well the torque sensors will work. It's not clear if it will suffer from the 'hot' chain. Baffo can be a chore in the early days of a new product.

I think Bafang is looking for the manufacturer market, beyond the kit market. They might even be fed up with the US market, with the high power limits and the hacked controllers. I would like to know how locked down this controller will be.

You just don't tend to see a CF on the cutting edge like this. I'd like to know a lot more about Max, but we are committed in a couple of weeks. KS lets you leave until the final funding day.

It explains why Karmo was out in October, for a bike that looked like a simple assembly job. I mean you could say I got an upgrade, but it's still something that might or might not work better than the highly regarded BBS02.

I guess if Sondo comes through, it's the golden age of CF.

 

[pxpaulx]

Looks good... Is this system available commercially (I'm wondering about the cost) and also are Koben specs subject to change?

It looks like a pretty sweet electrical system!

Steve,

If you google bafang max mid drive, there isn't much information! It was announced at Eurobike in August of last year, but I don't see any real images in a google search - only the renderings.

It was discussed in a mid-drive article from February at a competing electric bike review site (not gonna link it), but they still only had the renderings for their images.

The picture in the update on the koben campaign page very well could be one of the first photos of an actual bike with the drive.

The last koben update did link to bafang's website, and digging through their news section I found they posted the dealer's manual late april, at the following link if anyone wants to check it out:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Interesting note in the manual:

Functions Light function: DC 500mA/6V headlight & rearlight Optional functions: Bluetooth module, gear sensor, reprogramming function

warranty in the manual is 30 months motor, 18 months all other components. It also indicated the display can be password protected (though that might just be for changing settings, it isn't clear as it is the dealer manual). I also noticed you can set the max speed in the settings as well - I wonder if that can be changed on the regular koben (as they are technically going to be the same drives).

 

[pxpaulx]

@George S. what is the hot chain issue you are talking about? I haven't heard of that before, curious to know what it is!

To be honest I don't think the sondors bike will have any tangible impact on this one (or any specific e-bike for that matter) - if anything Sondors will affect crowdfunding in general, but the only way it can negatively impact e-bikes would be a truly bad end product, and even that impact will likely be minimal (i.e. it would result in the status quo, e-bikes that are considered relatively high cost). A few months ago I called the whole sondors thing a watershed moment for e-bikes, but in retrospect I think it will have just turned out to be the hot topic of the day (...or few months). The reality is 7K bikes is just firing a few bullets at a tank when the market is selling 200K annually and growing. If it fails its done - if it succeeds (bikes in hand, happy owners - regardless of ALL the discussion ongoing right now - that will be a perceived success), that is where it will have the most impact - but we won't see that impact for a year or two I don't think, if it happens.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

They started out with this Max prototype, then came in with the BBS02. The Max is just an unknown quantity. It's clearly aimed at Bosch. It seems to be set to a European standard of power, at 350W. Up to now, BBS02 has been open, and people run it at huge power. Not clear if this is going to be closed. It's not clear how well the torque sensors will work. It's not clear if it will suffer from the 'hot' chain. Baffo can be a chore in the early days of a new product.

I think Bafang is looking for the manufacturer market, beyond the kit market. They might even be fed up with the US market, with the high power limits and the hacked controllers. I would like to know how locked down this controller will be.

You just don't tend to see a CF on the cutting edge like this. I'd like to know a lot more about Max, but we are committed in a couple of weeks. KS lets you leave until the final funding day.

It explains why Karmo was out in October, for a bike that looked like a simple assembly job. I mean you could say I got an upgrade, but it's still something that might or might not work better than the highly regarded BBS02.

I guess if Sondo comes through, it's the golden age of CF.

Why do you think Haibike, Felt, Grace, KTM, etc all use Bosch ?
Bosch has locked down all good sensors under different patents and have monopolized the market and they also provide OEM's with massive subsidies for using their system. [My sister works for Bosch's motorcycle division in Germany]

I think Max drive could be an attempt to enter that segment of the market that has been eaten up by Bosch. Also, the frame has to be designed around this motor (which is a con). BBS01-02 had massive success because they could be added to existing bikes. One day you feel like removing and putting it on a different bike, no problem. Now, with this motor, although it looks sleeker, we lose that versatility.

 

[pxpaulx]

Thing is though, Bafang can take their built-up good will in the form of the BBS02 and undercut - they have the power of being a business that operates where the motors are built and labor is cheapest.

 

[J.R.]

There have been major changes to this campaign. The first to note is that Hong and Neal have parted ways, Neal and his patented battery are no longer part of Karmic. The timeline to receive a bike has been extended by 6 months from the dates noted on the campaign.

It's not my style to kick a man when he's down, but I would be remiss if I didn't post this news on the thread I started. I think Hong really stepped up by his honesty and I commend him for that. I like Hong and I hope to purchase a bike from him one day, unfortunately it won't be today as I've pulled my financial support from this Kickstarter campaign.

I wish Hong, his team and his backers all the best for the future. I'll keep an eye on this young man, I think he's going places!

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

One word. what the f*&^!!!
I know SH** happens in life and disagreements are common but it feels like a divorce because now you have created a hype about the product and many backers hopped on this wagon to find something exciting, reliable and affordable but suddenly, all that patented battery hoopla vanished and they are left with Bafang mid drive, unknown battery and 9 month waiting period!!

I had hopes. The industry (especially the US industry) clearly lacks innovation. I am slightly disappointed.
People and good connections are more important than few $ but I don't know what happened there!
I really wish they were working together.

 

[pxpaulx]

I am very disappointed in the news as well, am going to take a few days before I make a decision. The reality is I would not have been able to ride the bike until spring of next year save for a couple fall days if I were lucky.

If Hong can manage to provide details on the replacement battery I think I will need at least that level of detail to stay on board.

 

[stevenast]

I'm actually finding great joy in this news, but I suppose I'll be slammed for saying that lol. Campaign just smelled bad ...

At least you were able to pull your money out, spread the word!

 

[J.R.]

I'm actually finding great joy in this news, but I suppose I'll be slammed for saying that lol. Campaign just smelled bad ...

At least you were able to pull your money out, spread the word!

Steven I think you like drama and controversy, that's fine. Folk's like what they like, I don't judge. Even with this news there isn't any drama or controversy. Karmic never smelled and Hong has proven that by releasing this news 7 days before he got the money. Standup guy!! I got out now so the bump in the campaign has time to recover. Ethics is something you have or don't and most often ethical actions happen long before anyone can see it! I hope to purchase a Karmic in the future.

 

[stevenast]

Steven I think you like drama and controversy..... I don't judge.

I don't think it's controversial to point out salespeople who are hyping their product ... that isn't even a product lol.

My goal here is not controversy at all, it's to present a legitimate view: think about it before parting with money on one of these campaigns...

Edit: I think time will prove that this model is ripe for dissatisfaction, if it hasn't already... looking at the history of crowdsourced ebike-related campaigns.

 

[George S.]

This is a horrible, abysmal, awful day for CF campaigns. The BAD news is that the Wave bike was offered to 'everyone', and now they find they cannot make that work to little places like Europe. So they are going to have to undo all the transactions and they are making giving refunds sound noble. This has been a constant theme with the Storm, and their money is spent. Since Wave is talking speeds and lithium batteries, it's hard to say what happens. The Wave was always too fast, and it's basically too fast for US laws. It's tough to assess to financial impact.

As for the Karmic Koben:

KK apparently had this news a week ago.

https://medium.com/karmic-bikes/change-is-the-only-constant-63ace1690a3d

I left a week ago. I think the comments I made, and they are rather bland, are still over there. I said the bike was a 'work in progress' and a day later they had changed the motor, changed the frame, and abandoned the battery. I was allegedly undermining the campaign.

I hate to say it but my interest in CF is now zero. What is really sad is what Ravi mentions. This is just one of those downward spirals. The existing industry is lifeless, frankly. It's mostly Accel, but we are like 15% of Accel. I can't figure Prodeco and the strange recap, mentioned over on that forum. I'm basically waiting for Aliexpress to become mainstream at which point direct China imports will start pouring in. I don't like that, but it seems inevitable.

From a Fourtwo campaign, almost ten years ago. Yikes. A cheap shot, but...

 

[stevenast]

This is a horrible, abysmal, awful day for CF campaigns. The BAD news is that the Wave bike was offered to 'everyone', and now they find they cannot make that work to little places like Europe. So they are going to have to undo all the transactions and they are making giving refunds sound noble. This has been a constant theme with the Storm, and their money is spent. Since Wave is talking speeds and lithium batteries, it's hard to say what happens. The Wave was always too fast, and it's basically too fast for US laws. It's tough to assess to financial impact.

As for the Karmic Koben:

KK apparently had this news a week ago.

https://medium.com/karmic-bikes/change-is-the-only-constant-63ace1690a3d

I left a week ago. I think the comments I made, and they are rather bland, are still over there. I said the bike was a 'work in progress' and a day later they had changed the motor, changed the frame, and abandoned the battery. I was allegedly undermining the campaign.

I hate to say it but my interest in CF is now zero. What is really sad is what Ravi mentions. This is just one of those downward spirals. The existing industry is lifeless, frankly. It's mostly Accel, but we are like 15% of Accel. I can't figure Prodeco and the strange recap, mentioned over on that forum. I'm basically waiting for Aliexpress to become mainstream at which point direct China imports will start pouring in. I don't like that, but it seems inevitable.

From a Fourtwo campaign, almost ten years ago. Yikes. A cheap shot, but...

View attachment 3219

I think, hope, that there's another possibility than the cheap import scenario. It might be that the regular bicycle manufacturers begin producing more and better models than they have so far.

There's a glimmer of that: Specialized has the excellent Turbo, Trek has the sweet Powerfly (Europe-only for now). Diamondback and Raleigh have solid e-bikes, part of Accel, but that's a good thing.

 

[pxpaulx]

e bikes will NEVER be more than a niche market in the US if all we have are specialized, trek, diamondback, raleigh and accel brands at the helm. I refuse to drop $4k on a $1k bike because the big players are being kind enough to add a motor as an after thought.

 

[J.R.]

Stromer could be a huge player if the bike and price go on a diet. I don't know if that's possible without mass production and sales. Prodeco has the right idea for the US and that's building here in the US. If you take the some of the parts on a Prodeco, there is real value there! More value than most ebikes sold in the US.

 

[George S.]

I think, hope, that there's another possibility than the cheap import scenario. It might be that the regular bicycle manufacturers begin producing more and better models than they have so far.

There's a glimmer of that: Specialized has the excellent Turbo, Trek has the sweet Powerfly (Europe-only for now). Diamondback and Raleigh have solid e-bikes, part of Accel, but that's a good thing.

Accel has a lot of brands. I'm sure there's a good reason. I hope they fail in their attempts to outlaw throttles in the US. A $200 drivetrain, hub and throttle, can work very well.

I'm just looking for basic bikes at prices that would bring a lot of people into the ebike arena. You and Larry seem to have a very different agenda.

If Accel won't make an interesting $1200 bike, I think the bike will still show up.

 

[George S.]

Stromer could be a huge player if the bike and price go on a diet. I don't know if that's possible without mass production and sales. Prodeco has the right idea for the US and that's building here in the US. If you take the some of the parts on a Prodeco, there is real value there! More value than most ebikes sold in the US.

Accel assembles bikes for Europe in Europe, but they have a different approach for North America. Someone should try to make bikes in the US. We've seen the Chinese factories. They really can't do that here?

Accell Group cooperates closely with a number of suppliers in Europe and Asia for the sourcing of its bicycle components. Accell Group does this sourcing more and more at central level, for both the assembly of bicycles and for the sales of parts and accessories, which enables the company to generate economies of scale. The company regularly assesses whether existing cooperation with suppliers is optimal and identifies any potential efficiency measures and improvements. These assessments take into account both economic criteria and corporate social responsibility criteria.
Around 60% of all bicycles are assembled in our own production facilities. The 40% of bicycles sourced elsewhere are mainly children’s bicycles, mountain bike entry-level models and virtually all bicycles for the North American market. The purchased bicycles are produced in Asia and Europe. (Accel 2014 Annual Report)

 

[J.R.]

There's a market here! I have little doubt. Range is getting better every year. Someone with deep pockets, vision and a long-game is needed. In the late 1980's, Harley-Davidson would sell you a Sportster to get you in the door and offered you every penny you spent on it in trade a full year later for a bigger, better, more expensive model. They lost money short-term, but gained life-long customers. If you purchased 1 share of stock in H-D in 1990 for 28.00, today you would have 18 shares worth 54.00 + dividends without spending 1 penny more. That's a long game, that's vision and they created a lot of deep pockets! That's what ebikes need.

 

[stevenast]

e bikes will NEVER be more than a niche market in the US if all we have are specialized, trek, diamondback, raleigh and accel brands at the helm. I refuse to drop $4k on a $1k bike because the big players are being kind enough to add a motor as an after thought.

I honestly think my Haibike is a $800-900 retail bicycle without the "e". RockShox fork, hydraulic disc brakes, thru axles ... nice components all around. Can't make a quality e-bike for $100 more...

 

[stevenast]

Harley-Davidson

A great American success story. Image is a big part of that.

Yes, Prodeco is the closest thing in e-bikes. Maybe we all need to wear leather jackets and bandanas and ride in a group on our Outlaws!