How To Judge Quality

[flugelboneman]

Am a senior cyclist riding a Trek Mamba Mtn Bike looking to extend my biking life. Learned a long time ago the value of elite bikes vs dept store wheels. In the long run, you pay for what you get. I am examining Volt Bike and Spark Bike and am amazed at the difference in price when you compare with a Specialized or Trek Ebike. You are paying about half the price for the Volt Bike. The response from the floor of a Trek shop is that the components make the difference in price, e.g. Trek components are vastly superior to Volt Bike. I accept the argument of Trek vs Big Box store bikes, but does it hold true in the new ebike world. I keep my bikes for long periods of time. Will the lower priced ebikes last as well as the prestige bikes.

 

[AZOldTech]

Am a senior cyclist riding a Trek Mamba Mtn Bike looking to extend my biking life. Learned a long time ago the value of elite bikes vs dept store wheels. In the long run, you pay for what you get. I am examining Volt Bike and Spark Bike and am amazed at the difference in price when you compare with a Specialized or Trek Ebike. You are paying about half the price for the Volt Bike. The response from the floor of a Trek shop is that the components make the difference in price, e.g. Trek components are vastly superior to Volt Bike. I accept the argument of Trek vs Big Box store bikes, but does it hold true in the new ebike world. I keep my bikes for long periods of time. Will the lower priced ebikes last as well as the prestige bikes.

Are you comparing mid drive bikes to rear hub bikes or rear hub bikes to only rear hub bikes?

 

[AHicks]

Myself, I don't mind spending the long dollar to get what I'm after. The ONLY way I'll do that though, is if I can justify it somehow. With the bikes I see on the market today, and the likelihood they'll be outdated quickly pretty good, my thought is twofold. First is to jump on the band wagon and have some fun while the gettin is good! And second, I really fail to see the point of buying a high end bike when we have the market the way it is currently (pretty liquid). I'd suggest looking in the middle of the road area between 1500 (Rad) and 3000 (many choices) with good after market support - unless you're doing your own work. Support not nearly as important at that point.

 

[flugelboneman]

See im learning something already. Did not know 2 categories.

 

[J.R.]

I accept the argument of Trek vs Big Box store bikes, but does it hold true in the new ebike world.

Yes! First and foremost it's a bike. You know bikes, start with that, a strength, then shop. Drive systems can vary, but a quality brand won't put a bad system on their bike. Trek, Specialized are good places to start. Haibike, Stromer, Bulls, BH are just some others to look to.

If you want more targeted advice post some information about yourself and the style of riding you do. Height, weight. Upright or more aggressive ride position. Flat road and paved path. Off road. Etc...

 

[Mr. Coffee]

My own experience with bikes is that even very cheap bikes can last a long time, and even expensive bikes with expensive components need those components replaced from time to time. And if you ride hard or ride in awful conditions you will be replacing parts more often.

More expensive components are usually more expensive because they are lighter. Which does not necessarily make them more durable.

Having said all that, I love very high-end bikes. Usually less expensive mass-produced bikes make tradeoffs between stability and liveliness, and usually they also tend to overbuild and overweigh the bikes because they don't want to deal with warranty returns. A nicely made high-end bike can be stable and forgiving without feeling ponderous, and can be nimble and lively without being unstable.

In general, with e-bikes they are first and foremost bikes, and they will basically last forever if you maintain them (or often even if you don't). But I think it is likely that the first thing to really "fail" on your e-bike that will be problematic to replace is the battery -- and it is an open question if that happens five years from now if you'll be able to buy a replacement. Even if you buy from a reputable manufacturer and even if you buy a drivetrain (e.g. Bosch) that is well-established.

So accept the fact that you are a pioneer and you are running the risk of being shot full of arrows.

 

[J.R.]

You wanna keep your ebike for a long time?

It's gonna get outdated pretty damn quickly... if you're trying to keep your ebike for 5 years or even 10 years... I don't know about that.

I disagree about an ebike being outdated quickly. That might be true if you always need the latest and greatest tech. The only component that will need updating is the battery pack. I have one ebike that's 5 years old and a buddy of mine does as well. The batteries aren't what they once were, but they ride well. My newer bike (BH) I have 3 battery packs. I wouldn't have invested the money if I didn't expect it to last. I know others here with 5 and 6 year old ebikes.

 

[J.R.]

I don't know about that.. I'm more talking about the overall design and general improvement in technology.

Only a few years ago, ebikes were powered by Bion-X and Crystalyte. Where did those companies go?
Many of them looked DIY project with rear rack batteries with half exposed wires.

Now even cheaper ebikes have frame integrated, or half integrated batteries. Stark & Volt are good examples.

I got my Juiced CrossCurrent Air approx 2 years ago. (No, not THAT long time ago for non-ebike standard)
Since then, they updated the CrossCurrent, then came up with the CrossCurrent S, then after that, CrossCurrent X, and I'm sure they're planning on other bikes.

If you look at Yamaha, they're constantly coming up with new motor.. I feel like once a year or even less.
Same as other companies. Have you checked out the Bafang website? Holy smokes they have full lineups of a lot of stuff.. it wasn't like that couple years ago.

I agree bikes change, but that doesn't mean the bikes are out-dated. Dated sure. You got in early with JB, good bikes, but not surprised they'd get better or maybe just different.

I really enjoy the forums and sites outlining the tech. A good question to ask oneself is does my bike do all I want to do? I am looking at another bike; I'm not the conspicuous consumer I once was. I don't need another bike. I tend to hold onto things that work, I have a 29 year old Harley I purchased new. Works great!

 

[flugelboneman]

I don't know about that.. I'm more talking about the overall design and general improvement in technology.

Only a few years ago, ebikes were powered by Bion-X and Crystalyte. Where did those companies go?
Many of them looked DIY project with rear rack batteries with half exposed wires.

Now even cheaper ebikes have frame integrated, or half integrated batteries. Stark & Volt are good examples.

I got my Juiced CrossCurrent Air approx 2 years ago. (No, not THAT long time ago for non-ebike standard)
Since then, they updated the CrossCurrent, then came up with the CrossCurrent S, then after that, CrossCurrent X, and I'm sure they're planning on other bikes.

If you look at Yamaha, they're constantly coming up with new motor.. I feel like once a year or even less.
Same as other companies. Have you checked out the Bafang website? Holy smokes they have full lineups of a lot of stuff.. it wasn't like that couple years ago.

 

[flugelboneman]

Thx for all the great counsel and advice. I did not get much opinion on the volt bike and the spark, two brands that I am looking at.

 

[Nova Haibike]

Will the lower priced ebikes last as well as the prestige bikes.

Yes...and no. One factor is the basic quality of the product. Another is how much you will use it, and tied to that is how well you maintain it. If you don't use it much, the less expensive bikes will suffice; the mechanical parts aren't as durable, but you won't likely wear them out. If you do ride it a lot, the tighter tolerances of the better mechanical components on a more expensive bike will last longer...but if you don't maintain it, they will (perhaps) wear as quickly as a well-maintained cheaper bike. A more expensive bike will generally be lighter, and components will work better; it will have crisper shifting, smoother braking, and silkier suspension action.

I have only owned a "higher-end" e-bike, but from reading the forums, it seems like the Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, etc. systems are a bit more reliable than Bafang and other drive systems. Not that the motors fail, but the connectors and electronics are engineered and tested to a higher degree, leading to fewer problems overall. At least that is my impression.

 

[PDoz]

For someone who is interested in long term ownership rather than having the latest tech, there is a very good argument for buying a bike of adequate quality / ability in the expectation of many years enjoyable service.

Sure, it'l be obsolete the moment it's wheeled out the door - but it will still be usefull , very enjoyable, and ultimately great value.

You just need to approach the decision accepting that resale value for ebikes is horrible - between the percieved benefits of buying the latest and greatest, restrictions on transfer of warranty ( eg specialized / giant do not transfer warranty beyond the original owner) , and even potential difficulties with sourcing replacement batteries / ensuring the battery has been looked after - why would you buy second hand unless it was a LOT cheaper than new.

So jow for the hard question - how good ( expensive) is good enough? For me, this is no different to the same question in a brand new bike - there is a sweet spot where quality / functionality is good enough, and beyond that price increases cater towards people with a higher expectation than me. I guess I'm in the shimano slx / xt gear / brake or rockshox yari / fox 34 suspension bracket ? Anything less and I know It'll eventually cost me to upgrade when I become dissatisfied, anything better than this and I honestly can't tell the difference.

Am I happy with my 2018 giant? Absolutely.
Do I wish I'd waited for 2019? Only for about 5 seconds each ride
Do I wish I'd spent twice as much on a carbon turbo levo? Pft...
Am I glad I didn't buy some cheap basic bike? Absolutely! This thing does everything I want and it was worth every cent.
Will I be upgrading? Not until I'm better than the bike ( aka no)

 

[Nova Haibike]

I think Chinese motor have come a long way.

Bafang actually won the Nurburgring 24 hour eBike Race.
So yes, Bosch did lose to Bafang.

Bafang is cheap, and yes, there's a notion of "you get what you paid for" but there are also people saying "this is a lot of motor for the money"

As I wrote, the motors are fine. Where I sense an issue is with connectors and other components. Just yesterday I watched a video on YouTube where a cheap e-bike was pitted against a mega-dollar e-bike. In one test over a rough section of trail, the battery actually fell off the cheap e-bike, not once, but twice! Now that is an extreme example, but how many times has someone had a battery connection or controller issue on a Juiced bike?

 

[PDoz]

I'm not saying spending money on expensive bike is a bad thing.. it's your money and if you can afford it, it's a good idea because if you buy something like Giant, there's no doubt that components are better than Juiced and the bike will give you more joy.

That said though, I am not quite convinced about the long term ownership on ebikes.. it can be done, and it's a nice way to preserve / use something for a long time, but still, I feel ebikes will evolve even more.

When you talk about long term ownership, you're probably talking about 10+ years (I've seen many people who had their bicycles for more than 10 years). However ebikes are different.

Look at ebikes from 10 years ago. Exactly which 10 year old ebikes do you feel worth spending tons of money? Yes, it may have been the state of art back in the day, but they look plain ugly now. 10 year old cars and motorcycles look just fine, but ebikes? They look like they're from stone age.

They had all the wirings (made it look like amateur DIY project) and those old school Bion-X and Crystalyte motors were huge and inefficient.
Some motors were belt driven (looked like alternator for cars) and usually attached to the side / rear end of the frame.
The battery pack was ugly giantic box, overall, if you look at them today, they're aesthetically unpleasant.
And how the heck are you supposed to get parts for those already vintage ebikes? The speed controller, even the display is something you can no longer get.

Yes, the ebikes today look much better, but I feel the technology will improve even more.
In 10 years (2029) , you might be saying those Bosch and Shimano STEPs may look huge and ugly, inefficient and underpowered.. and even Specialized and Trek bikes have this well exposed cheap plastic looking battery pack, with low capacity and low technology called lithium ion.
In 10 years the mid motor (if they still use mid drive?) might be integrated into the frame and barely noticeable. There might be better transmission or gear change system. etc.

I know it's just me, but because I'm a budget conscious buyer, I think I'd rather buy cheap brand like Juiced and replace it a little more often.

I think the mid to high spec ebikes have reached the stage wherea 10 year ownership is viable for a recreational buyer.

I've got a perfectly functional 10 year old giant trance in the shed, my youngest daughter rides it most of the time but I'm still happy to ride it when she is riding my full e pro. Same goes for my 2 year old norco optic. These bikes are in the sweet spot where they are capable of performing weel enough for this average rider.

Having said that, if in 5 years we see 13 kg dual suspension emtb's with a full days range , then I'll still be happy to have hada 5 year lifespan out of my full e pro !

 

[elliot friedman]

Court was smart enough to include forums pertaining to numerous ebike companies. Those are probably your best sources to see how consumers have felt about and what kind of experiences they've had with a particular company's product.

https://electricbikereview.com/forums/categories/discussion-by-brand-user-reviews.168/

 

[AZOldTech]

I think he's asking more general question.

He is not comparing hub drive vs mid drive. He said Trek and Specialized, which is mid drive...then Volt or Stark, which is hub drive.

His question was NOT something like "which one is better? mid drive or hub drive?" It was more like, if more expensive ebikes are worth paying for.

I just didn't want him to compare apples to oranges price wise. Price wise there is a big difference between mid drive bikes and rear hub drives. Trek and Specialized (or Haibike or any of the other top brands) are mid drive ebikes, while Volt and Spark (or RadPower etc..) are rear hub ebikes. Anyone can slap together a rear hub drive bike (and I do mean anyone). That is not the same for mid drive bikes. And clearly, based on his response, he didn't know there was a difference.

 

[AHicks]

"As I wrote, the motors are fine. Where I sense an issue is with connectors and other components. Just yesterday I watched a video on YouTube where a cheap e-bike was pitted against a mega-dollar e-bike. In one test over a rough section of trail, the battery actually fell off the cheap e-bike, not once, but twice! Now that is an extreme example, but how many times has someone had a battery connection or controller issue on a Juiced bike? "



So you are saying owners of 1500 dollar Rad bikes can expect their batteries to fall off, or to have issues with wiring? Anything is possible, but you don't hear a lot about problems like that on here much.

Considering the Rad's price point, you can buy a Rad to suit your riding style, ride it for 3-4 years, then throw it away and buy a brand new one - for half the price of a "high end" bike. Ride that second one for 3-4 years, and throw that one away - wash, rinse and repeat the cycle indefinitely. This keeps you up to date from a technical standpoint, and you're going to have to do a LOT of riding to wear one out in 3-4 years (to the point repairs become excessive).

If a production Rad doesn't suit your requirements to a "T", many are customized very inexpensively.

I get the point of doing it right the first time from a practical standpoint, but when costs start getting excessive to do that, I think of the example above with the Rad bikes.

Good question by the way....

 

[6zfshdb]

Am a senior cyclist riding a Trek Mamba Mtn Bike looking to extend my biking life. Learned a long time ago the value of elite bikes vs dept store wheels. In the long run, you pay for what you get. I am examining Volt Bike and Spark Bike and am amazed at the difference in price when you compare with a Specialized or Trek Ebike. You are paying about half the price for the Volt Bike. The response from the floor of a Trek shop is that the components make the difference in price, e.g. Trek components are vastly superior to Volt Bike. I accept the argument of Trek vs Big Box store bikes, but does it hold true in the new ebike world. I keep my bikes for long periods of time. Will the lower priced ebikes last as well as the prestige bikes.

You spent extra $$ when you bought your Trek Mamba. IMO, the same reasons you used back then should also apply to a new ebike.

 

[Nova Haibike]

So you are saying owners of 1500 dollar Rad bikes can expect their batteries to fall off, or to have issues with wiring? Anything is possible, but you don't hear a lot about problems like that on here much.

I am saying that there is a greater chance of issues with a less expensive bike. Surely you can appreciate that there is a difference in quality between bikes of different prices.

Considering the Rad's price point, you can buy a Rad to suit your riding style, ride it for 3-4 years, then throw it away and buy a brand new one - for half the price of a "high end" bike. Ride that second one for 3-4 years, and throw that one away - wash, rinse and repeat the cycle indefinitely. This keeps you up to date from a technical standpoint, and you're going to have to do a LOT of riding to wear one out in 3-4 years (to the point repairs become excessive).

If a production Rad doesn't suit your requirements to a "T", many are customized very inexpensively.

That would be a legitimately good strategy for many users, especially since twice the price of a Rad is only about $3K, which does not get one a "high-end" bike, merely an LBS brand bike. Some of that $3K is going to the middleman, the LBS. Where it begins to diverge is when you go even higher, where it is not only a question of quality, but of category and performance. Rad only makes utilitarian and recreational e-bikes; they do not have road e-bikes, or e-mtb's.

 

[erider_61]

Anyone can slap together a rear hub drive bike (and I do mean anyone). That is not the same for mid drive bikes.

I don't think installing a mid drive motor is any more difficult than a hub drive. The only specialized tool you need is a crank puller. There are plenty of videos on the installation and in some ways I think it is actually an easier job than a hub drive. No rear wheel removal, tire, tube and disk brake rotor transfer.