How To Judge Quality

I don't think installing a mid drive motor is any more difficult than a hub drive.

I believe what was implied is that you cannot install any of the high-end mid-drive motors because they require a specially manufactured frame with a proprietary mounting plate. Never mind that those very same motors and systems are not even sold as aftermarket components.
 
I am saying that there is a greater chance of issues with a less expensive bike. Surely you can appreciate that there is a difference in quality between bikes of different prices.

Yes, I do agree, but more to the point here is that there ARE pretty decent bikes available at price points that make it more and more difficult to rationalize bikes costing 4 times as much. Also, there are inexpensive bikes where you can reasonably expect good service life. Even if there were a break down (IF!), most of the parts are pretty much standardized and are available everywhere, even if you had to go back to Rad for them.

Point here being you can't assume problems like batteries falling off and electrical gremlins are going to be present on any inexpensive bike. I think the Rad line demonstrates that point pretty well.

That would be a legitimately good strategy for many users, especially since twice the price of a Rad is only about $3K, which does not get one a "high-end" bike, merely an LBS brand bike. Some of that $3K is going to the middleman, the LBS. Where it begins to diverge is when you go even higher, where it is not only a question of quality, but of category and performance. Rad only makes utilitarian and recreational e-bikes; they do not have road e-bikes, or e-mtb's.

And I agree on the fact Rad has a limited line of bikes - which is why I mentioned the fact they are so easily customized very inexpensively. Just start out by getting something close to what you are thinking of and personalize/redo it "your way". When done, even when using top quility parts for your upgrades, betting you still have a VERY reasonably priced bike, especially when comparing it to high end bikes. And I'm using Rad as an example here, only because I'm familiar with them. Not saying or hinting there are no others that might compare. Say, something that comes standard with hydraulic brakes for instance....

Obviously, all bets are off with Rad if you insist on mid drive, but even then the same logic works. You just start with an inexpensive bike using a quality drive and battery, and build from there.

Nothing written in stone here. Just tossing out some ideas. -Al
 
I disagree about an ebike being outdated quickly. That might be true if you always need the latest and greatest tech. The only component that will need updating is the battery pack. I have one ebike that's 5 years old and a buddy of mine does as well. The batteries aren't what they once were, but they ride well. My newer bike (BH) I have 3 battery packs. I wouldn't have invested the money if I didn't expect it to last. I know others here with 5 and 6 year old ebikes.
I too disagree. Wanting the latest and greatest tech doesn't factor into it, in my mind. If there is an improvement in tire/wheel tech, suspension tech and even battery tech five years from now, I can retrofit my (then) five-year-old ebike with the latest stuff. And even if I can't, I will still have an ebike that is every bit as good as the day I bought it. I just took possession of a Riese & Müller Homage Rohloff belt drive. I have ridden it only 60 miles but I can't find a single thing wrong with it--not one thing I dislike. I can't think of what will be outdated about this ebike after five years or even ten. The only component which I doubt I can update is the motor. And there's nothing wrong with the motor it came with. I ride as far/long as I want to and I haven't met a hill that I couldn't climb. That isn't going to change as the ebike gets older. @Timpo is correct that both ebike aesthetics and tech will continue to change but that doesn't really correspond to the dating of older ebikes. Ebikes have matured a lot over the last several years and are no longer the throwaways that the first few iterations were.
 
I don't think installing a mid drive motor is any more difficult than a hub drive. The only specialized tool you need is a crank puller. There are plenty of videos on the installation and in some ways I think it is actually an easier job than a hub drive. No rear wheel removal, tire, tube and disk brake rotor transfer.

That DIY mid drive install won't last 100 miles.... lol
 
Last edited:
My own prediction looking 5 years down the line: Total weight 25lb or less carbon mid drive ebikes with speeds 28+ mph and 100+ mile range at less than $2500 list price with top level components (non Di2). Can't wait.
 
Great aftercare costs. If you want to use your bike for years, will the brand still be supported? Will there be parts available if you need a new controller or display or motor or cables or connectors? Is support locally available? I wanted bikes for my family to ride for years, so that was an important part of my deliberations.

For those reasons, I’d plunk my money down on the established brand bikes over the cheaper ones from less tested or established makers.
 
The best advice I can give you is to visit as many local bike shops as you can. For me than meant a 90 mile drive down to Seattle and the whole day test riding bikes at three different shops. Then a bunch of reading reviews on bikes that felt good to me, mostly on this website, watching the video review too. Then another trip to Seattle to narrow down the list.

The most common comment I have heard from new ebike owners is almost always something like: "I never imagined I would be riding a bike this often or this far" Buying a cheap mass produced bike may or may not give you the same quality of "whoopee!!" experience that boosts you right into an enthusiastic embrace of ebiking. All too often people who buy lesser bikes seem to arrive at regrets sooner because the bike's inherent limitations just never quite enabled it to do what they want. Personally I ended up spending way more than I initially thought I would or should. Given how much time I spend on my bike, something I never could have imagined, I am glad I spent what I did and got a bike I can count on, that enhances my enjoyment every time I ride it.

I realize that budgetary constraints are more of a reality for most. Fortunately your budget should allow you to get a good bike, especially at this time of year what with clearance deals available on 2018 model year bikes and people's need to clear room for this year's models when the weather gets better. Many solid dealers are discounting some very good bike's right now to around your $2,500 budget.

The best thing you can do is be as precise as you can about how often and under what conditions you think you are going to ride. This will help a knowledgeable dealer guide you to a bike that will serve you best.

Add a grain of salt to the advice you get here. Some of it can be quite good and well informed but there are occasionally shills hiding in the corners, promoting their new brand. And then there is the fact that individuals riders often exhibit confirmation bias in their comments. Do it your self/retrofit guys can't imagine why someone would spend good money on a manufactured from the ground up ebike. Fans of low priced, Chinese made, hub motor bikes would not be caught dead on center drive bikes. Fans of German made equipment really don;t hardly bother looking at bikes from other countries. Some people will never even look at a bike without a throttle, while other would never have a bike with one.

So with all that, get after it and do not delay. Spring is just around the corner. There will be far less on-sale inventory before you know it.
 
I know very little about mid drives and am curious as exactly what you mean by that statement.
Mid drive motors require special consideration on frame and drivetrain mechanics. Sure you can retrofit one on a regular bike but it won't last very long.
 
Are you saying that adding aftermarket mid drive will twist or damage the frame because of added torque?

I think it should be fine as long as you don't use really weak frame? Because a lot Luna Cycles ebikes are based off non ebike frame and I don't think they have that problem.

Also if that's the theory that can be said the same thing about hub drive. Although something people add torque arm for hub drive..
That is still a $2400 ebike so I'm sure Luna Cycle didn't pick any $200-400 frame to build this one. BTW, hub bikes all they need is a strong spoke wheel build around the hub.
 
That's why i joined this forum, i have learned more in a week than a year of doing it on my own.
My take on price is the 80's designer jeans thing, 3 times the price of Levi's or Wranglers but still just jeans, buyer beware. Read everything you can on this forum and forget the salesmen, make your own decisions.
I worked as a apprentice mechanic at a car dealership, claims can be sometimes outrageous.
 
My own prediction looking 5 years down the line: Total weight 25lb or less carbon mid drive ebikes with speeds 28+ mph and 100+ mile range at less than $2500 list price with top level components (non Di2). Can't wait.

The Trek Domane+ is Carbon, and it has SRAM Force...and weighs 38 lbs. and cost $7000. Even if we add the Trek name-brand luxury tax of say 30%, it would still be much more than $2500. I don't know how much lighter the motor can get, not without using exotic materials...which would drive the cost up, not down. The motor adds about 7 lbs. That leaves the battery; right now a 500wH battery is about 6 lbs.

Of course Trek is not the only game in town, but the other mid-drive systems on road bikes don't support 28 mph, nor does there appear to be making any derestriction devices for those motors. They are definitely lighter though (Cube and Focus).
 
The Trek Domane+ is Carbon, and it has SRAM Force...and weighs 38 lbs. and cost $7000. Even if we add the Trek name-brand luxury tax of say 30%, it would still be much more than $2500. I don't know how much lighter the motor can get, not without using exotic materials...which would drive the cost up, not down. The motor adds about 7 lbs. That leaves the battery; right now a 500wH battery is about 6 lbs.

Of course Trek is not the only game in town, but the other mid-drive systems on road bikes don't support 28 mph, nor does there appear to be making any derestriction devices for those motors. They are definitely lighter though (Cube and Focus).

This is the example of extra-ordinary value!
https://www.haibikeusa.com/xduro/s-pedelecs/xtreme/2016-xduro-urban-rc.html
Quite capable and nimble at 40lbs.
A steal at $1799. It's got the same motor and battery as bikes like Tern GSD, Benno boost and Bosch will warranty the stuff from the date of purchase.
 
I don't think installing a mid drive motor is any more difficult than a hub drive. The only specialized tool you need is a crank puller. There are plenty of videos on the installation and in some ways I think it is actually an easier job than a hub drive. No rear wheel removal, tire, tube and disk brake rotor transfer.

I think AZOldtech was remarking on the difference between a commercial hub motor ebike and a integrated mid drive. I doubt a consumer can go wrong with quality on any mid-drive, They start with a higher level of design/manufacturing expertise, requiring a build from the frame up. The electronics are integrated in the motor, and come from respected manufacturers like Yamaha and Bosch.

Some hub motor ebikes also have purpose built frames, mostly to integrate the battery. However, many use a standard bike frame to fit the motor, maybe with extra gussets added around the motor mounts. And because they are so common, all kinds of hub motor ebikes are available, with some of the low end models somewhat suspect in quality.

For do-it-yourselfers, a mid drive kit does takes less time and planning, because the wiring is well integrated into a single harness, No controller box to hide or pedal sensors to install. I don't know of Mike's Ebikes (not far from where I live) has sold many yet, but he only charges $100 to install a TSDZ2 mid drive.
 
As I wrote, the motors are fine. Where I sense an issue is with connectors and other components. Just yesterday I watched a video on YouTube where a cheap e-bike was pitted against a mega-dollar e-bike. In one test over a rough section of trail, the battery actually fell off the cheap e-bike, not once, but twice! Now that is an extreme example, but how many times has someone had a battery connection or controller issue on a Juiced bike?

If that's the same video I saw ...(UK riders).... the guy is using RC Hobby batteries (kaboom) and they looked to be held on with duct tape, To be fair though, a full suspension mountain bike has no room for any batteries. That type of bike is better as a production build, plus you probably want torque sensors.

The Hailong ("shark") case is used by both do-it-yourselfers and some commercial bike sellers. It's been known to fall out on its own, especially when mounted upside down on a full suspension mountain bike. It also had a built-in design flaw where the contacts collect water and corrode.
 
The issue with mid drives is regarding installing the drive unit in a manner where it's fixed solidly, or solid enough. Issues start and quickly escalate when the drive is allowed to move around, which quickly wears out the mounting area.

The drop outs are the area that you need to pay attention to on a hub motor install. You're looking for a lot of beef in that area, and obviously an install that won't let the axle twist.

And personally, I wouldn't give a bike without disc brakes a second glance for a conversion project.
 
Am a senior cyclist riding a Trek Mamba Mtn Bike looking to extend my biking life. Learned a long time ago the value of elite bikes vs dept store wheels. In the long run, you pay for what you get. I am examining Volt Bike and Spark Bike and am amazed at the difference in price when you compare with a Specialized or Trek Ebike. You are paying about half the price for the Volt Bike. The response from the floor of a Trek shop is that the components make the difference in price, e.g. Trek components are vastly superior to Volt Bike. I accept the argument of Trek vs Big Box store bikes, but does it hold true in the new ebike world. I keep my bikes for long periods of time. Will the lower priced ebikes last as well as the prestige bikes.
So now that we cleared all that up!

Screenshot_20190221-114719_Chrome.jpg

I'm curious what you think about all this? There are some conflicting statements here and I often wonder how that affects a first time ebike buyer. Has this respectful discourse helped? With hundreds of ebike models and limitless reasons for riding one, there's never going to be consensus. I do hope you've found a lot of helpful information here from an enthusiastic community.

Good luck in your search. Let us know what you settle on.
 
Ah okay I see

Before you believe him, punch in " ebike frame failure" to your favourite search engine.

Not ebike specific, but I still remember the pain from each time I snapped " any crappy frame" in the early days of bmx
 
Back