How Many Have Received Fines for Class 3?

[Ken M]

The only time it will matter is if you get into a crash and someone wants to sue you for damages. Knowing that you were riding illegally will improve their case.

Another reason to ride responsibly.

This is really the main justification for not having an ebike with an assist speed over 20 or 28mph but I don't think there has been a precedent case anyway in the US someone being sued for riding an "illegal" ebike with the claim that it was the reason for the accident. It will be possible for any competent lawyer (yes there are a few) to prove that non-ebikes can achieve speeds much higher than 20/28mph. The bottom line it's the rider that must ride responsibly at all speeds.

Side note: I've ridden over 5,000 miles this past year and have had a few close calls with pedestrians. In every case, it was the pedestrian not paying attention that was the problem. I'd be ringing my bell, slowing down, etc. and they'll just be walking with the heads down and head phones on or texting not paying attention to anything. They have some responsibility as well .... hate to say that maybe a few need to get whacked by a handlebar to get them to pay attention while they are walking on a dual use path.

 

[Riversurf]

...while allowing urban commuters enough power to say cruise at 35mph on road side bike lanes where speed limits are posted for cars that fast or faster

This is pretty clearly stating that you're OK with going 35 mph in a bike lane, if that's what the speed limit for cars is. So I'm not seeing how MadManMark's response is an over-the-top (I assume you meant to write "top") response. Thirty-five in a bike lane is too fast. Way to fast. If you want to ride 35, stay in the car lane. If I saw an ebike passing me in a bike lane at those speeds, I'd want that person stopped and ticketed.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

In every case, it was the pedestrian not paying attention that was the problem. I'd be ringing my bell, slowing down, etc. and they'll just be walking with the heads down and head phones on or texting not paying attention to anything. They have some responsibility as well .... hate to say that maybe a few need to get whacked by a handlebar to get them to pay attention while they are walking on a dual use path.

Same here. It's such a pain even with my electric siren... until I got the Airzound.

 

[Ken M]

This is pretty clearly stating that you're OK with going 35 mph in a bike lane, if that's what the speed limit for cars is. So I'm not seeing how MadManMark's response is an over-the-top (I assume you meant to write "top") response. Thirty-five in a bike lane is too fast. Way to fast. If you want to ride 35, stay in the car lane. If I saw an ebike passing me in a bike lane at those speeds, I'd want that person stopped and ticketed.

So what would you want to happen if I passed you on an aero recumbent non-ebike going 35mph?

Have you ever ridden a traditional bike faster than 30mph going downhill in a bike lane? Should you have been ticketed for that or should other that do be ticketed?

Yes I meant the type over-the-top but hopefully this response adds merit to my point. You can't ignore that those speeds are achieved by non-ebikers...then again you probably will and say it's OK so long as there is no non-human element involved....which is like saying then it's not the speed that matters it's the assist level that matters which will be a pretty weak opinion.

 

[Ken M]

I guess what is shocking to me is that there are a lot of bikers that feel that going as fast as 35mph on any bike is just irresponsible and unsafe and yet I have ridden a lot of miles on traditional bikes with others that all went that fast on downhills and had the potential so hit that speed for short distances as well. Oh, and if there was a bike lane on the street they were on they would most likely be in that lane and not mixed in with cars that most likely would have a higher differential in speed than other bikers on the path.

 

[ebikemom]

Laws are often modified as ways of life change. It'll be interesting to see what happens!

 

[Ken M]

Here's another very relevant question. Why are most road bikes geared such that they allow a reasonable cadence at speeds above 30mph if no one ever rides faster than than on a non-ebike?

I think the real question is why do so many people that feel the 20mph assist limit is rational ignore facts like this?

 

[Chris Hammond]

This is exactly the typical over-the-response you get whenever you even mention an ebike assisting above 20mph.

I can personally sustain a speed of about 30mph on my road bike for about 1/4 mile and I've been on a aerodynamic recumbent in which I was achieving a speed of 30-35mph for that distance and more. These were not ebikes so you're implication that traditional bikes never go faster than 20mph or the 28mph of a Class 3 ebike is just false. Funny that you didn't say this is irresponsible and dangerous but I would say that riding a bike of any kind and at speed when mixed in with cars is a bit irresponsible and dangerous given the attention span of the typical driver. The issue with these speeds on a traditional human-powered bike is that it's not possible for most riders to sustain those speeds for great distances or going uphill, but I don't see why allowing an ebike to assist to those speeds makes riding a bike any less safe for anyone (other than going faster is always a less safe fact of life even for car drivers).

Never did I suggest traveling at speeds higher than cars are legally allowed to go on residential streets, when there is a speed limit of say 20mph thru a school zone, that should apply to anyone on a bike on that street or in a bike lane.

I also did not say that regulations would be removed completely. Context is important when you read these forums. I stated that the current legislation in virtually every state will be modified because it's nearly impossible to enforce them as written. I will always suggest that bikers ride responsibly and as safely as possible, but that doesn't automatically imply that no biker should ever exceed a speed of 20/28mph. I think most seasoned road bike riders would tell you that they exceed those speeds every ride. OMG - the spandexters are cowboys out to ruin biking for all of us.

The highest speed I have achieved on my road bike is 55 mph. The highest on my ebike has been 42 mph. Acceptable speed is relative to the situation. Follow the speed limits of the road you are on. I honestly feel safer cruising in traffic on my ebike at 30 mph than I do on my road bike at 20 mph. The differential in speed between me and traffic is far lower and allows me more time to adjust to obstacles in the bike lane, merge into traffic to make left turns, etc. When I am on roads where the speed limit is 30 mph, I am traveling at the same speed as traffic, which greatly reduces potential conflicts with cars.

 

[Figs]

So in answer to the threads question, no one has received a fine. There is no enforcement.

 

[Ken M]

The highest speed I have achieved on my road bike is 55 mph. The highest on my ebike has been 42 mph. Acceptable speed is relative to the situation. Follow the speed limits of the road you are on. I honestly feel safer cruising in traffic on my ebike at 30 mph than I do on my road bike at 20 mph. The differential in speed between me and traffic is far lower and allows me more time to adjust to obstacles in the bike lane, merge into traffic to make left turns, etc. When I am on roads where the speed limit is 30 mph, I am traveling at the same speed as traffic, which greatly reduces potential conflicts with cars.

You point about the reduced differential of speed between bikes and cars seems to be lost on some as they seem more concerned about 5-10mph differences between bikers and less concerned about 20+ mph differences between cars when you limit bike speed to 20mph.

 

[Ken M]

So in answer to the threads question, no one has received a fine. There is no enforcement.

So in answer to the threads question, no one has received a fine. There is no enforcement.

There's no enforcement because the people that would be doing it know the regulations are merit-less. How can a police officer determine if an ebike is doing 29mph because of the riders effort or the assist being non-compliant? How can they determine if a motor is more than 750W without having the test equipment to do so (keep in mind the regulation doesn't even say anything about the drive system, only the motor rating which is nebulous in engineering terms.

 

[elliot friedman]

SPEED LIMIT, not CLASS LIMIT

 

[Riversurf]

So what would you want to happen if I passed you on an aero recumbent non-ebike going 35mph?

Have you ever ridden a traditional bike faster than 30mph going downhill in a bike lane? Should you have been ticketed for that or should other that do be ticketed?

Yes I meant the type over-the-top but hopefully this response adds merit to my point. You can't ignore that those speeds are achieved by non-ebikers...then again you probably will and say it's OK so long as there is no non-human element involved....which is like saying then it's not the speed that matters it's the assist level that matters which will be a pretty weak opinion.

Again with the "but what about going downhill" argument which seems to be the default when speed issues come up. So: Yes, if I went that fast in a bike lane, I'd deserve a ticket, to answer your question. I don't care how the bike is powered - pedaled, pedal-assisted, gravity, pulled by huskies. If it's going 35 in a bike lane, that's too fast. So how that weakens my argument beats me. And no, I don't say -- as you simply assume I would -- think that it's OK so long as there is no non-human element involved. It's too fast in a bike lane. If you just have to go that fast, stay in automobile lane.

 

[Riversurf]

SPEED LIMIT, not CLASS LIMIT

Yes!

 

[Ken M]

SPEED LIMIT, not CLASS LIMIT

This subject has been discussed many times on forums and there are still those confused by class/assist limits and speed limits - some seem to consider them the same thing. Once you are locked into that mindset it's hard to explain to them that there are cars that can achieve speeds over 250mph but still have to obey speed limits. They think that if an ebike can assist to 35mph that everyone will be riding at that speed regardless of any trail speed limits or pedestrian safety issues.

I have always speculated that those ?riders? that support the Class 1 assist limit of 20mph on all ebikes work for oil & gas, DMV, or insurance companies and want every ebike that assists to a higher speed classified as a motorcycle so they have less chance of wider acceptance or can get $s from licensing, registration, parking and insurance.

 

[MadManMark]

Have you ever ridden a traditional bike faster than 30mph going downhill in a bike lane? Should you have been ticketed for that or should other that do be ticketed?

Please reread my comment with the objective of understanding my intent in making it. I believe I was quite clear that my reservation about allowing ebikes to go 35mph for a sustained distance is that it would cause safety concerns in situations where other bikes were going significantly slower.

I make this request because I don't know how you could have even asked this question if you understood that context; downhill grades are literally the main situation that my comment does not apply, i.e. where conventional bikes will also achieve those speeds. At that point technically there isn't even much of an ebike vs "human-powered" distinction anymore; one is just coasting in either case (it's "gravity powered").

 

[Ken M]

Please reread my comment with the objective of understanding my intent in making it. I believe I was quite clear that my reservation about allowing ebikes to go 35mph for a sustained distance is that it would cause safety concerns in situations where other bikes were going significantly slower.

I make this request because I don't know how you could have even asked this question if you understood that context; downhill grades are literally the main situation that my comment does not apply, i.e. where conventional bikes will also achieve those speeds. At that point technically there isn't even much of an ebike vs "human-powered" distinction anymore; one is just coasting in either case (it's "gravity powered").

So your issue is ONLY differential of speed as a safety concern which you believe is best minimized by assist speed limits (not sure why your opinion would not also extend to cars but I'll leave that alone for now even though some cars can achieve speeds over 250mph).

It's common for shared pedestrian and bike paths to allow bike speeds to 20mph, so that obviously allows at least a 15mph differential in speeds between bikers and walkers. Is that a potential safety risk? Sure, but we have to assume both riders and walkers will be paying attention to ensure the shared paths are safe. Apply that same differential to a bike lane on the street and you could have a 20mph assist limit ebike and a faster one creating the same differential in speed potential. The speed differential between autos and traditional bikes riding on the street have a much higher potential differential and bikers have lived with that safety risk for a very long time (anyone that rides on the roads knows how fast some cars wiz by them and how close they can be at times).

My position is simple - I believe the rider is the best judge of what a safe assist-enabled riding speed is so allow speed limits to control top speeds just like we do for cars. EVERYONE is use to that means of control and it's just as enforceable on eBikes as it is for cars. The current regulations are not really enforceable (there are just too many ways to enable a faster ebike assist and they can easily be turned off by the rider at any time and how do you prove anything when that is possible?).

 

[MadManMark]

I feel like I only asked you to do one thing -- go back and reread my comment, more carefully -- and you didn't. You keep going on in your replies to me about what regulations should & shouldn't be, downhill top speeds, etc, while I never discussed that aspect in the first place. All I ever said was that what you advocated -- "cruising at 35mph in bike lines" (you literally, explicitly said cruising, clearly implying not just going downhill!) -- was not safe IMO, people should not do it, whether their bikes and local laws allow them or not.

I'm not sure what more I can do but to ask you one more time to reread my actual words, and not read anything more into them. Otherwise ... peace, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Ken M]

I re-read you original post: You wrote "going 35mph in a bike lane/path is irresponsible and dangerous." You didn't say it was OK when going downhill because all bikes can do it when going downhill (funny that speed limits typically apply going uphill or downhill but that's not fair to bring into this discussion).

I understand that you feel that faster than 20mph assisted ebikes will create a large differential of speeds on paths, but that already exists.

When the debates/discussions were active when the interstate speed limit increases were going on there were arguments exactly like you outlined to keep the speed limit at 55mph. But that was making about 90% of Americans law breakers on almost a daily basis. I just think your feeling that no one should ever go faster than 20mph on a bike path is equivalent (as you agreed it's already violated by most going downhill). There is always differential of speeds and I don't think a 20mph differential is inherently dangerous.

 

[Ken M]

I hope everyone understands that my interest is in seeing ebikes become a very viable human scale form of transportation. I'm not against regulations that are well thought out.

I just don't want to see ebikes requiring expensive registrations, insurance, etc. that hurts their chances of being adopted on a wide scale. I absolutely think top assist speed will be a factor is wide adoption. We need a human scale transportation solution far greater than we need to worry about people feeling unsafe because an ebiker rides by them going 15mph faster if they are on a traditional bike.