Groundbreaking *4 wheel* simplicity???

[DashRiprock]

 

[PCeBiker]

I watched both videos and was wondering if the front axle pivots at all ?

I know the wheels "bend over" into a turn, but if you were to roll over say, a 3 inch bump with one of your wheels would the quad be standing on three wheels?

The first video showed the quad entering the dirt path where it went through a bit of a gully on an angle, and it seemed to rock to the side and make a clunking noise?

It would of course be Way Too Cool if it had 4-wheel independent suspension, but maybe it's just the big fat squishy tires that help to keep all four wheels touching the ground when one wheel hits a bump or gully?


EDIT: IT TILTS !!!

I watched the first video again and took a picture of my TV while he was leaning the quad over to one side and got a rear wheel off the ground,..

That's Pretty Damn Cool !!!

 

[DashRiprock]

Here's the latest on that crash above involving the quadricycle's cousin; the reverse etrike:

 

[DashRiprock]

I watched both videos and was wondering if the front axle pivots at all ?

I know the wheels "bend over" into a turn, but if you were to roll over say, a 3 inch bump with one of your wheels would the quad be standing on three wheels?

The first video showed the quad entering the dirt path where it went through a bit of a gully on an angle, and it seemed to rock to the side and make a clunking noise?

It would of course be Way Too Cool if it had 4-wheel independent suspension, but maybe it's just the big fat squishy tires that help to keep all four wheels touching the ground when one wheel hits a bump or gully?


EDIT: IT TILTS !!!

I watched the first video again and took a picture of my TV while he was leaning the quad over to one side and got a rear wheel off the ground,..

View attachment 187018


That's Pretty Damn Cool !!!

I might have been seeing things...yet in one of those first parking lot videos; he's going in and out of some shadows moving towards the camera person not making any really drastic moves just swerving a bit. It was pretty clear to me that when he broke the shadow one of those times; one of the rear wheels was slightly off the ground similar to what you see above.
As you offered above, it's the give in these fat tires (imo) which keeps this thing planted in the turns absent any suspension whatsoever.
I think that anyone who counts too much on this not being so when turning at (?) speeds and on (?) incline will find themselves exactly where the reverse etrike guy did above or at least pretty uncomfortable.
This is why I would like to try my hand at fabbing the seat down to more of a recumbent level which I'm fairly certain that 630 will do if they ever have the opportunity to do so in later models.

 

[PCeBiker]

I might have been seeing things...yet in one of those first parking lot videos; he's going in and out of some shadows moving towards the camera person not making any really drastic moves just swerving a bit. It was pretty clear to me that when he broke the shadow one of those times; one of the rear wheels was slightly off the ground similar to what you see above.
As you offered above, it's the give in these fat tires (imo) which keeps this thing planted in the turns absent any suspension whatsoever.

I missed that part, but if the front axle doesn't pivot, then when the rear wheel lifted off the ground it would have lifted the front wheel on the same side off the ground as well.
But it didn't, and three wheels stayed on the ground.
That's a good thing.

If both front and rear wheels lift off the ground together then it flips over easier.
Having the rear wheel come off the ground first, then have to lift Way Up before it starts to pull the front up gives to time to react and prevent toppling over.

I think that anyone who counts too much on this not being so when turning at (?) speeds and on (?) incline will find themselves exactly where the reverse etrike guy did above or at least pretty uncomfortable.

I'm sure you could still tip the thing over, but I bet that you could get really good at cornering on three wheels if you practice?

The design looks very forgiving to me with room to play in fudge area.

I remember seeing a car at a car show go up a ramp on the right side of the car. He got off the ramp then continued driving around the track on the two left wheels of his car.

This is why I would like to try my hand at fabbing the seat down to more of a recumbent level which I'm fairly certain that 630 will do if they ever have the opportunity to do so in later models.

Yeah that makes sense on any vehicle, but maybe not so much on a quad meant for older people?

I remember my mother trying to get into my car that was kind of a sports car and really low to the ground.

She struggled and groaned and held on to the handles with all her might to get herself seated.

 

[DashRiprock]

I need some help here in terms of this alternative design motor ever fitting on this quadricycle.
At the 2:37 mark he mentions applications beyond the standard fork style fit.
What do you think of the motor (period) and would it be a good fit for this quadricycle burdened by the California regulatory crap limiting its ability to haul passengers and cargo effectively?
I'll get back to you sometime, PC/Kevin; just found this and wanted to share.

 

[PCeBiker]

I need some help here in terms of this alternative design motor ever fitting on this quadricycle.
At the 2:37 mark he mentions applications beyond the standard fork style fit.
What do you think of the motor (period) and would it be a good fit for this quadricycle burdened by the California regulatory crap limiting its ability to haul passengers and cargo effectively?
I'll get back to you sometime, PC/Kevin; just found this and wanted to share.

All I know is that Grin makes quality stuff that's well engineered and well built but costs more.
It's all open source information too.
Nothing proprietary.

And it ships from Canada so you may not have an import tariff?
I'm sure is got parts inside that are made in China though, just like everything else so maybe there will be an importing issue ?

I know that at least one of their motors is available in a slow speed or fast speed winding, so you can get more torque with less top end speed from the same motor.

Which is probably what you would want with a heavy quad that might be power limited by your local government.

 

[DashRiprock]

My wife had many trike motorcycles and scooters, and even a reverse trike with a Can-Am.
I bought a used BUZZ trike for my wife. She hated it.

I'll be happy if she rides this even two or three times and pretends to like it.
If she had owned/ridden many trike motorcycles, scooters and a CanAm...I would have already ordered the motor above and a Harley two-up seat with tassels..

 

[PCeBiker]

Here's the latest on that crash above involving the quadricycle's cousin; the reverse etrike:

I watched the video and I'm kinda thinking that the trike doesn't really serve any useful purpose?

It takes more balance and practice than a two wheeled bike.
It leans over, but not like a regular bicycle and becomes dangerous when you lean too far.


I still think that the quad is a great design though.
It's got four wheels on the ground and isn't supposed to be leaning over.
The leaning only happens on the front end when you go over uneven surfaces but the rear end is supposed to stay "grounded" all the time.

If the rear end starts to lift off, you can probably steer out of it and set it back down.

 

[PCeBiker]

I need some help here in terms of this alternative design motor ever fitting on this quadricycle.
At the 2:37 mark he mentions applications beyond the standard fork style fit.

That's the video I just watched a few days ago.
It looks like the Grin motor is adaptable to fit almost anything, including being bolted off the side of an axle, so it should fit and work on your quad?

I don't know how many motors you would want or need and if the regulations will limit what you are able to do though?


I noticed that the axle dropout spacing is either 170mm or 190mm with adaptors to make them 177mm or 197mm, but my e-bikes rear dropout appears to be 185mm with a BAFANG G062 motor, so I don't know what's going on?

I need to measure it again more carefully.
I've been thinking about a Grin regenerating motor for a while now.

You can get a throttle that gives more power as you twist it on, then gives progressive braking when you twist the throttle backwards.
I think that's pretty damn cool !!

 

[DashRiprock]

Design-wise, I have no problem with the thing save for what we are paying in today's market for seemingly much more/much better suspended and powerful; even when talking 2 wheels versus four which I'll still stand behind given what I've seen out there to date shipped free to my door (personal opinion). I don't begrudge anyone for that perceived difference as I would charge just as much as possible myself (capitalism) and plan to fix these two things myself if possible.
As for the mobility possibilities for older people and the ease of access, I think that their other office-style model (trike) proved this short of making the seat swivel. Nothing's perfect yet the stability is there, the power at speed (not much needed) and relative size for a cargo-carrying machine that'll still fit in to most tight spaces.
Right now, I believe the motor to be its biggest glaring weakness save for the center of gravity, seat and handlebar/pedal positioning whenever per the last two are solved.

 

[DashRiprock]

Didn't now that the twist throttle worked that way on the Grin and have never previously heard of the concept. I also wasn't sure about the alternative axle positioning use so thanks for confirming. Not sure what I'd be getting in to as I haven't studied the rear differential or even how the drive works yet I'm 'all in with the Grin' if it indeed will adapt somehow.
Probably should wait for someone to simply come out with what I want yet I believe that this market in particular might change for the worse very soon.

 

[PCeBiker]

Didn't now that the twist throttle worked that way on the Grin and have never previously heard of the concept.

There's a few different ways to activate the regeneration with a Grin hub motor, including a regular brake lever with graduated regeneration as you squeeze the lever, and a thumb dial that rotates forwards and backwards for acceleration and regeneration.

Probably should wait for someone to simply come out with what I want yet I believe that this market in particular might change for the worse very soon.

That's what I'm thinking.
Nobody wants to invest in R&D of new technology when the market has tanked.

 

[DashRiprock]

Thanks for the info on how these Grins operate.
As for the market killing R&D?....tanked it has.
I think that a lot of 'manufacturers' selling anything China-made here in the U.S. have sadly underestimated the carnage about to unfold very soon.
I would have been fire-sale moving absolutely everything during this last week (or long before) to see where I was inventory-wise and then quickly making any 2025 purchasing decisions/putting in only fast turnaround/price-guaranteed POs yesterday.
Even with the above strategy? (which I didn't see many doing) ...I see nothing but doom and gloom for a significantly long stretch of time moving forward.

 

[DashRiprock]

An alternative application guide for the above motor:

Single Side Applications​

A unique feature of the front All-Axle hub design is its ability to work in applications requiring a single side mount. This allows the side wheels of trikes and quads to be readily electrified for the first time, and is especially popular with tadpole trikes running an internal gear hub rear wheel.

Unlike front bicycle forks where there are industry standards (admittedly a lot of standards, but standards at least), the wheel mounting strategy on trikes is all over the map, and unique adapters are required for most vehicle models. We've taken the approach of using the disk caliper mount as an anchor point to hold the wheel and lock the axle against rotation.

Catrike	The popular catrikes are ideal for the V2 Grin Hub motor because they already use a 20mm spindle, and they adopt the rear ISO2000 disk caliper mounting standard for both the left and right wheels.
Terratrike	The terratrike rovers also have a 20mm spindle, but they use a front ISO disk mount and the shaft has a shoulder that prevents the hub from sliding on as far as would be ideal. We accommodate the terratrike axles with a two-piece torque arm that provides the necessary spacing for where the motor fits in place.
Icetrike	This adapter bolts onto a custom machined All Axle Hub Motor to allow for single side mounting to the spindle of certain Icetrike tricycles. The two-piece adapter secures the motor axle to the trike frame via the disk caliper mounting holes. This adapter requires a shim insert to step down the ID of the motor axle to 12mm.
Greenspeed	The Greenspeed trikes use a smaller 12mm diameter spindle and have a disk caliper location with Rear IS2000 caliper placement. We have a similar 2 piece arm that can be flipped 180 degrees for working on either side. This also requires a shim to step the axle ID down to 12mm.
HP Velotechnik	The popular german brand HP Velotechnik makes trikes that all use a 12mm spindle but use a post mount rather than an ISO disc mount. To fit the All-Axle motors on these trikes, we have a disc caliper mounting block that repositions the brake outwards to align with the motor and increases the radial offset for a larger 180mm rotor. The torque arm in this setup is secured to the two fender bolts via a stainless steel plate rather than to the caliper mount. The hardware for the left and right side models are similar, differing only in the direction of bend on the stainless torque arm plate.
DIY	The splined arm is available by itself for doing DIY mounts on other vehicle types. The two bolt holes allow you to interface with a separate flat plate of metal that can attach under the disk caliper or other frame location on the frame to lock the axle from spinning.

One Side or Both?

A trike with dual Grin hub motors can be insanely powerful and will be able to rocket up the steepest hills with amazing efficiency, but it is also quite expensive to do a full conversion with two specialized motors and motor controllers. You can also run a tadpole or delta trike with just a single side wheel motor and leave your original wheel on the other side. In general this does not result in any lopsided steering or handling issues and allows for a ligher weight and more economical conversion.

 

[PCeBiker]

I just took another picture of that quad from the video,..

It looks like they have the hub motor mounted in the frame and I guess it uses a single sprocket/gear to drive a sprocket/gear connected to one side/wheel of the quad?

The rider appears to be connected to the other side through a regular bicycle crank and derailleur ?

That's pretty cool, and should be really cheap and easy to install a different motor.

However, he keeps saying that it is a 750 Watt motor and I don't think that you can even buy a higher power motor?

I don't see an advantage of a Grin motor, other than getting two of them and installing them in each rear wheel?


If it were me, I'd install two or three sprockets on the rear axle were the motor connects with a derailleur and have a 3-speed 750 Watt hub motor.

The motor isn't connected inside the wheel, so you can run it through gears on the axle to get tons of torque at low speed for hills, then tons of speed in third gear.


I've looked at one trike "transmission" and the rear axle isn't directly connected to both rear wheels.
One wheel has to spin freely so that you can go around corners without your tires scrubbing (the outside wheel needs to spin faster than the inside wheel in a turn)

That trike looks Easy to pimp out to maximize torque at all speeds if you put a set of sprockets on the axle for the motor.

You'd end up with two gear shifters though. One for the motor, and one for you the rider.

The motor looks like it's the a direct drive hub motor (with no internal gears), and that makes sense because it's going through sprockets anyway. A direct drive hub motor has no moving parts inside, and lasts forever unless you cook it with too much power.

 

[PCeBiker]

I found a picture of a go cart sprocket with two gears,..

You'll probably have something like this mounted on your rear axle with a single sprocket.

They are thicker stronger sprockets than what's found on a bicycle or ebike but they are much stronger.

I don't know if there is any kind of derailleur for those types of sprockets, but I'm sure you could at least change out your sprockets at the motor and axle to gear it for hills or speed.

Perhaps a normal bicycle/e-bike cassette or freewheel could be installed on the axle, but your 750 Watt motor might tear it apart?

There is CVT belt drive systems too, but I don't think that they are very efficient? (You might waste half your power heating up the belt? )

 

[gromike]

It needs a mid-drive into a differential. Just crap having one power wheel on a quad.

 

[PCeBiker]

It needs a mid-drive into a differential. Just crap having one power wheel on a quad.

It is actually a mid-drive motor, using a direct drive hub motor driving the rear axle.

A normal differential only drives one wheel anyway. I can lift up the front end of my car (front wheel drive) and spin either wheel freely, but I can't spin both wheels in the same direction without rotating the engine.
I can also put it in gear idling and with both wheels spinning in the air, I can stop either wheel from spinning by carefully grabbing the wheel to stop it.
The other wheel just spins twice as fast.

That's why my car has a limited slip differential available, so when you do a burnout, both wheels are powered and burning rubber.

But,.. I found this,..
A go-cart gearbox.

Maybe something like this, but a little less heavy duty?
(Maybe a version from a kids go-cart?)

 

[PCeBiker]

I took some more pictures from the video,..
It's got a regular chain on the motor to the drive sprocket, but it looks like the chain line is too short to install a free wheel or cassette?

Maybe just two or three sprockets on the axle, or a small gearbox?

I don't think adding a single regenerating motor to one side is smart because all the regenerating braking force would only go to that wheel.
A single regenerating motor replacing the original motor would do the same thing on the other wheel.

I think the only way to go with a Grin motor is to get two of them and do both rear wheels and just remove the original motor?