Getting my first road ebike - Specialized vs Canyon

[Rás Cnoic]

Nonsense Stefan. Baloney. For a start there are no rules for a gravel bike unlike a road bike. It's a made up name. Go back and read the second half of my post again. You have an obsession about what can and cannot be gravel. There are no rules. Learn instead what ALL-ROAD means. The clue is in the name. You don't need to 'cripple' the Creo 2. Just ride it as it is on roads, off road, back roads, forestry roads, bridleways...all roads. It'll be fun and capable on all of those. And here's what I wrote above that you clearly missed:

If you want a lightweight & pure road bike with race proven geo then no the Creo isn't for you.

And btw who the hell bothers to race e road bikes? Thats a niche within a niche.

Here's a bit of reading for you. Test of ten All Road bikes. The important bit for you - and why gravel is a such a loose term - I've pasted here:

If you look at the all-road bikes of our test field, you can see a similar break with tradition. Road bikes packed with features and offering up to 50 mm tire clearance, 650B wheels, electric assistance, and suspension are met with indignation from the stuffy road bike scene. It’s a clash of cultures

And:

What is an all-road bike?
Looking at the drop bar segment from “normal” road to gravel, you might ask yourself how it’s possible to clearly differentiate these bikes from each other. Case in point, the UCI Gravel World Championship was won on a modified road bike. It seems as if the only real difference is the factory-specced tires. To make matters worse, these segments are further divided into niches, and you’ll still find huge differences between the bikes within these niches, as you can see in our gravel race bike shootout. While the purpose of thoroughbred road bikes is relatively clear, all-road bikes are optimised to cater to a wide range of use cases.

The best all-road bike of 2023 - 10 all-road bikes in review

Looking for an all-rounder? We put ten hot all-road bikes to the test and compared them head-to-head. Read on to find out which one came out on top.

granfondo-cycling.com

Specialized seem to agree with you Stefan that the market for pure e road bikes is perhaps small. So they're made a bike that can go on any road; dirt gravel tarmac so you can explore all around you. Call it an all road bike or an adventure bike or even a gravel bike and then ride it everywhere you damn please.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@mschwett?

You are a pure road cyclist. Could you chime in?

 

[gromike]

Some of us are rather more unorthodox in our bicycles and just use the machine however we want. Tires are more of an issue for me than a bikes labeled usage.
Here's a picture of my latest road ebike creation. Still need to replace the front knobby with a smoother one.

 

[mschwett]

I agree with both @Stefan Mikes and @Rás Cnoic who are partially saying the same thing. The creo 2 is not a pure road bike. For someone who wants an eBike as close to the feel of a modern road bike, it’s not the bike. 1x drivetrain, 2.5 degree shallower head tube, 3” longer wheelbase, way more stack, and of course those wide rims with tons of tire clearance and the correspondingly fat frame bits that go with it. and it’s 5-7lb heavier than the lightest road e-bikes out there.

it is, however, a very capable all-road bike, as specialized says it is. certainly very capable of long fast road rides, and despite what specialized advises (for bizarre reasons) it runs great with fast, light road tires.

calling these bikes gravel bikes is just a fad, capturing some of the energy going around the great races, grinduro, unbound, dirty k, belgian waffle, all that. they’re not very different from all road bikes, cyclocross bikes, and in some ways mountain bikes from 30 years ago.

as far as a true road bike, i want more bar drop, less weight, and most of all a proper 2x electronic drivetrain with a real power meter. those things are non negotiable for me and i’m not sure specialized will ever go there the way Scott, Orbea, Wilier, Pinarello, Trek, and others have.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

calling these bikes gravel bikes is just a fad, capturing some of the energy going around the great races, grinduro, unbound, dirty k, belgian waffle, all that. they’re not very different from all road bikes, cyclocross bikes, and in some ways mountain bikes from 30 years ago.

What is called a "gravel" or "adventure" bike nowadays has been an all-around bike since it was invented. I think the matter of confusion is the "road bike" here. It is actually a "road racing bike". If you set a group of riders on gravel and racing bikes on smooth asphalt, the former stand no chance to win even a little race. On the other hand, no sane racing bike rider would enter these two kilometres of the trail:

Yes, you read that correctly. Out of 94 km of the trail of yesterday, 92 km were perfect, smooth asphalt. Broken with just 2 km of such a bad gravel road my Vado SL was like dancing on the potholes.

An announcement on a cycling group for today: 'We invite you for a 70 km road cycling workout. However, all the regular members of the group ride gravel bikes, so we warn roadies: You might get bored with us soon!'

In my opinion, Creo2 would look a little bit funny on the 28 mm wheelset (that you have to provide yourself!)

 

[mschwett]

What is called a "gravel" or "adventure" bike nowadays has been an all-around bike since it was invented. I think the matter of confusion is the "road bike" here. It is actually a "road racing bike". If you set a group of riders on gravel and racing bikes on smooth asphalt, the former stand no chance to win even a little race. On the other hand, no sane racing bike rider would enter these two kilometres of the trail:
…

around here it’s very common to take racing road bikes on short stretches of gravel/dirt similar to what your picture shows (maybe it got worse elsewhere?)

remember that nowadays a fast road bike rolls on 28 or 30mm tires, often tubeless at lower pressures than the old days. and lightweight carbon bikes are very well engineered to be both stiff and compliant where they need to be. completely different than a heavy and ultra stiff aluminum bike.

most all my rides include stretches of this, which often get washboarded and rutted after the rains. of course I would never do it on road tires when muddy, but no problem dry.

 

[Prairie Dog]

remember that nowadays a fast road bike rolls on 28 or 30mm tires, often tubeless at lower pressures than the old days. and lightweight carbon bikes are very well engineered to be both stiff and compliant where they need to be. completely different than a heavy and ultra stiff aluminum bike.

My carbon road bike is a lightweight racer focused on performance with geo and components that compliment it. It’s also my daily ride and I’m really quite fond of it. For this reason, I plan on using it to do several 2–3-day mini tours on an overseas trip in the fall and the only mods that I plan are to rig it with a 34t cassette and 30c tires. It will also be outfitted with an ensemble of accessories including a light weight rack, trunk, top tube and frame bags. I’m not too concerned that it’s a pure road bike but I also feel that its versatility runs deeper than what most might think as I’ve found it relatively comfortable on longish rides. These mini tours will be leisurely fast runs (tarmac only).

Would you consider this blasphemy?

 

[mschwett]

My carbon road bike is a lightweight racer focused on performance with geo and components that compliment it. It’s also my daily ride and I’m really quite fond of it. For this reason, I plan on using it to do several 2–3-day mini tours on an overseas trip in the fall and the only mods that I plan are to rig it with a 34t cassette and 30c tires. It will also be outfitted with an ensemble of accessories including a light weight rack, trunk, top tube and frame bags. I’m not too concerned that it’s a pure road bike but I also feel that its versatility runs deeper than what most might think as I’ve found it relatively comfortable on longish rides. These mini tours will be leisurely fast runs (tarmac only).

Would you consider this blasphemy?

nope, the road bike is a versatile machine, regardless of how racy the geometry is. sounds like a lot of fun!!!

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I agree with both @Stefan Mikes and @Rás Cnoic who are partially saying the same thing. The creo 2 is not a pure road bike. For someone who wants an eBike as close to the feel of a modern road bike, it’s not the bike. 1x drivetrain, 2.5 degree shallower head tube, 3” longer wheelbase, way more stack, and of course those wide rims with tons of tire clearance and the correspondingly fat frame bits that go with it. and it’s 5-7lb heavier than the lightest road e-bikes out there.

it is, however, a very capable all-road bike, as specialized says it is. certainly very capable of long fast road rides, and despite what specialized advises (for bizarre reasons) it runs great with fast, light road tires.

calling these bikes gravel bikes is just a fad, capturing some of the energy going around the great races, grinduro, unbound, dirty k, belgian waffle, all that. they’re not very different from all road bikes, cyclocross bikes, and in some ways mountain bikes from 30 years ago.

as far as a true road bike, i want more bar drop, less weight, and most of all a proper 2x electronic drivetrain with a real power meter. those things are non negotiable for me and i’m not sure specialized will ever go there the way Scott, Orbea, Wilier, Pinarello, Trek, and others have.

It's labels that are the issue. What the pivot to 'gravel' did do was open peoples eyes to the possibilities of where you can ride your drop bar bike. And I think that's had an effect on road bikes design as well. The evolution of road bikes, back when they were called racing bikes, because most people who bought one was racing them, to road bikes (a deliberately inclusive marketing term?), from 18-21mm tyres at 120psi, limited gear options (no low gears), rim brakes and no tyre clearance to the road bikes of today is driven I think by comfort without losing speed (as well as all the tech advances, carbon, disks etc). It's been a slow moving revolution and again I suspect part of it is bike brands seeing how big the take up for gravel bikes was/is and that customers want comfort for long rides on a variety of surface. Ending up here, with the all-road bike in itself a harking back to the French Randonneurs who had wide tyres, low gearing and comfortable geometry to do 200 mile plus rides facing any and all roads they needed to traverse in any and all conditions day and night.

A few decades ago most everything was driven by what road racers rode. The industry (for road/racing bikes) was small, clique-y and mostly based around club cyclists - and the new sport of triathlon, which being new and obsessed by marginal gains would help drive innovation. Back then people who rode for fun bought a rigid MTB (Originally sometimes called, tellingly, an ATB all terrain bike) or if they went long miles on back roads; a touring bike, something like a Dawes Galaxy with 3x and cantilever brakes.

And if at a road race in 1987 somebody had shown Pog's 2024 Colnago with it's 30mm tyres they would have been shocked (after being shocked by the feather light weight, disk brakes Di2 etc etc!!) It was completely assumed back then that wider meant slower, lower psi meant slower.

And there is a marketing aspect to all this, the bike industry thrives on new exciting trends. Labels. 'Endurance' 'Gravel' 'All-Road' It gets attention it sells bikes. But also people are rightly scared of sharing big roads with cars and trucks, having a bike to take you off the beaten track feels safer. Particulary the majority of high end road & gravel bike buyers these days who don't race and have no interest in racing. Unlike in 1987 this 'recreational/exercise' market is now massive. Numbers at traditional road races are in decline, worrying the UCI.

On your last point - I remember on here when the Creo 2 dropped, I suggested that Spesh must have a creo version up their sleeves aimed at more traditional road use. That they might even go extremely lightweight with the Mahle X motor system and 2x. That hasn't appeared. That could be because the economic conditions are dire (No Vado SL 2 either, odd that) or that as I said, they don't see the demand right now. Trek is also economising, combining both their race and endurance road bikes into one model it seems.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

As I said before: No-one needs a 25 km/h "road racing e-bike" in Europe. While gravel cycling has become as massive as you are getting huge discount on the purchase of a traditional gravel bike now (but no discount on MTBs!) It is natural Specialized had analysed what led to very poor sales of Creo 1 in Europe and has come up with Creo 2 that 100% meets the criteria of a gravel bike, and the speed restriction plays far less important role here.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Many people choose to blur the lines between disciplines and shouldn’t feel dictated as to how they ride whether it’s more suited to road or gravel. In this case, I agree with @mschwett that the Creo 2 could serve dual roles even though most would be inclined to purchase one for riding gravel terrain. We shouldn’t get too worked up just because a bike isn’t quite being used for its general intended purpose.

@Rás Cnoic does raise a valid point about industry labeling bikes according to latest or most popular trends. If there is profit to be made, manufacturers will go to endless lengths to try and take full advantage of what currently is 'hot'. All one needs to do is drop by a LBS and view the vast array of makes and models. Gravel bikes are versatile. Which is to say they occupy a pretty large tent with a generous admission policy.

For people getting into cycling, gravel bikes seem to be what “hybrid” bikes have always promised to be but never were - ride on dirt, ride on road, ride where you want. For folks starting out who aren’t sure which way the hobby will take them, I think gravel’s flexibility is really appealing because it is new and low risk. Want to avoid road traffic, have a penchant for rural trails but don’t feel the need to ride anything too techy?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

For people getting into cycling, gravel bikes seem to be what “hybrid” bikes have always promised to be but never were - ride on dirt, ride on road, ride where you want.

Very good point.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The only new point I want to make is I could not see any gravel bikes in England. Most of men seemed to be riding classic "road racing bikes" there. Perhaps because almost all the country is paved (I didn't mention Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland here).

 

[Prairie Dog]

The only new point I want to make is I could not see any gravel bikes in England. Most of men seemed to be riding classic "road racing bikes" there. Perhaps because almost all the country is paved (I didn't mention Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland here).

I never realized how popular it is here but it doesn’t surprise me given the vast amount of rangeland riders are able to access. I can’t see myself getting into the sport as I have more than enough on my plate to keep me busy. Still, it’s hard to ignore when you see where it can take you.

Alberta

Premier Gravel Cycling Rides and Routes in Alberta

thegravelexperience.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I never realized how popular it is here

Gravel cycling was invented in the United States... And Canada is a way wilder than the U.S.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

The only new point I want to make is I could not see any gravel bikes in England. Most of men seemed to be riding classic "road racing bikes" there. Perhaps because almost all the country is paved (I didn't mention Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland here).

Not sure why this has anything to do with this thread? And like your good self Stefan I don’t own a gravel bike so I don’t follow any races or events. But google is your friend:

2024 UK gravel events - the best off-road races of the year

If you're looking to plan some gravel action for 2024, you've come to the right place. This year's gravel calendar is quickly filling up and if you sign up early, you can grab the early bird prices at many of these UK gravel events. The following events are very much worthwhile considering, no...

off.road.cc

Didn’t realise there were so many events!

You also do realise there are no border checks between all four nations in U.K. right? And you can ride back and forth to your hearts content. And although the U.K. is a smallish land mass in comparison to say France with a large population but it is definitely not ‘paved over’! Not even near London.

England like the other 3 ‘home’ nations is lumpy & bumpy with plenty of ancient woods, forestry and mountains. Not as wild as Scotland or the West of Ireland but it also has an enormous network of bridleways, an ancient network of dirt/gravel roads & rights of way that are perfect for riding a gravel bike - going routes that are partly on tarmac roads and partly bridleways. Wonderful for exploring. And Ideal for any of the ‘labels’ bikes discussed here.

Incidentally England has far more forestry then my own country Ireland for example, with the lowest forestry levels in Europe due to our good neighbours chopping down all the trees to find the rebels (parallels to Vietnam & deforestation-nothing changes) and for masts for the Royal Navy, in our long colonised history.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But google is your friend:

2024 UK gravel events - the best off-road races of the year

If you're looking to plan some gravel action for 2024, you've come to the right place. This year's gravel calendar is quickly filling up and if you sign up early, you can grab the early bird prices at many of these UK gravel events. The following events are very much worthwhile considering, no...

off.road.cc

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a way bigger than England (the area of the whole UK is 78% of Poland). If you read the article yourself, you'd discover most of the gravel events are held in Scotland and Wales, with a very few occuring in England. Well, Mazovia where I live is a highly developed province, still some gravel roads can be found if you are looking hard for them We're missing no forests, though.

Of course, I know the UK is a unified country with no border checks (so far, hehehe) but even you could not deny Wales or Scotland are geographically different from England. Yes, I put a mental note England has some wild nature (I was on a long trip over England and Wales and could see Cotwolds, Peak District, Isle of Wight, Salisbury, Brighton and other beautiful places of England. I also could see how different Wales was!)

You seem to live in London or around? Please have look at so many bikes zooming the streets of the capital city of the UK: most of men ride road racing bikes. Deny if you can

I rode up a London cycle store with a share bike last December.

'So you guys mostly offer road bikes?' -- I demanded -- 'No... We have a gravel bike here!' -- the owner proudly announced

 

[Rás Cnoic]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a way bigger than England (the area of the whole UK is 78% of Poland). If you read the article yourself, you'd discover most of the gravel events are held in Scotland and Wales, with a very few occuring in England. Well, Mazovia where I live is a highly developed province, still some gravel roads can be found if you are looking hard for them We're missing no forests, though.

Of course, I know the UK is a unified country with no border checks (so far, hehehe) but even you could not deny Wales or Scotland are geographically different from England. Yes, I put a mental note England has some wild nature (I was on a long trip over England and Wales and could see Cotwolds, Peak District, Isle of Wight, Salisbury, Brighton and other beautiful places of England. I also could see how different Wales was!)

You seem to live in London or around? Please have look at so many bikes zooming the streets of the capital city of the UK: most of men ride road racing bikes. Deny if you can

I rode up a London cycle store with a share bike last December.

View attachment 178856
'So you guys mostly offer road bikes?' -- I demanded -- 'No... We have a gravel bike here!' -- the owner proudly announced

Nope I live on Dartmoor other side of the vast country from London. Largest wilderness area in the south of England they tell me. It has hundreds of narrow lanes, bridleways and ancient roads across the moor.

And BTW your maths or geography is a bit off. That list of gravel races has 4 in Wales, 7 in Scotland and 10 in England with a further three mostly going through England: the internationally renowned GBDURO- 2000 km off road from the tip of Cornwall to the north tip of Scotland (one Island remember). This is the one I have heard of; and there's another one from Scotland to England and England to France.

So your childish point is that because (you think) England as some of cut off geographical area is completely 'paved over', so people living here are not entitled to talk about gravel bikes? Is that a rule in the Gravel Handbook I missed?

Ha ha. This is just hilarious Stefan. Talk about petty. Especially as I'm Irish so happily don't give a s*it about what you think of England. Sic the Polish Gravel Police on them all, lock em all up.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Take a photo of a person riding a gravel bike where you live (I'll take a similar photo just tomorrow).

Gravel cycling is no doubt a fashion and it took off even in England. The difference being, Warsaw is tightly packed with gravel bikes while I could spot none in London

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Are you alright Stefan? Explain to me what on earth you are on about?

I don't get what the sight of gravel bikes in two cities matters to anything on this thread. You can't be doing a playground top trumps - poland is better then England thing are you? Are you 5? What's is your point here?