Getting my first road ebike - Specialized vs Canyon

[jabberwocky]

Did you notice you never mentioned "England" in the sentences above?
For your information, England is one of the four countries forming the United Kingdom. Of those, Wales is the MTB paradise, and Scotland...

There is definitely gravel in England proper. Gravelmap shows ~500 gravel segments just within the greater London area. Is this some "if my ultramarathon friend wouldn't travel to ride the gravel it doesn't count" thing?

 

[Prairie Dog]

Nothing inherently us-them about riding bicycles, and why not keep it that way? Unite around the joy of cycling. Good will toward responsible cyclists of every stripe — utility and recreational riders and serious athletes alike.

Well said. However, his need to be always right likely developed long before this thread. Time for me to move on and cease further interaction as it only ends up expending energy talking in circles in an attempt to defend one’s POV.

To the OP who I hope has garnered sufficient input relative to his original post which has since digressed.

 

[Saratoga Dave]

That guy hasn’t been seen since he posted the first entry in this extravaganza over a year ago. Stefan actually was first out of the gate with a reference to the new Creo, PedalUma basically said the same thing, Stefan bit and it was off to the races! This thread has been a terrific carnival ever since. Something to do while waiting for the Tour de France coverage.

And I am happy to report that I just rode 8 miles on hard road along with 14 on actual gravel, hard packed dirt and a few rocks, with newly downed tree limbs all over the place… all on a Creo 1 and I’ll be damned if I didn’t survive! Hard to believe, I know

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Based on the info here, I'm now fantasizing about a Creo 2 as my next ebike — hopefully in this lifetime.

Just one lingering concern: Will I have to wear lycra? Nobody wants to see that.

 

[BlackHand]

Based on the info here, I'm now fantasizing about a Creo 2 as my next ebike — hopefully in this lifetime.

Just one lingering concern: Will I have to wear lycra? Nobody wants to see that.

I don't see anything in the rules about it, so I think it's up to you. Just make sure your outfit is completely dusty or has artistic mud splatters on it when you go for your required post-ride micro brew.

The Many Rules of Gravel

They aren’t any more unwritten rules, because I just wrote them here.

dirtdispatch.substack.com

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I don't see anything in the rules about it, so I think it's up to you. Just make sure your outfit is completely dusty or has artistic mud splatters on it when you go for your required post-ride micro brew.

The Many Rules of Gravel

They aren’t any more unwritten rules, because I just wrote them here.

dirtdispatch.substack.com

"1. You are riding the correct tires. You also are not riding the correct tires. This is basically gravel riding’s version quantum physics."

Hilarious!

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I don't see anything in the rules about it, so I think it's up to you. Just make sure your outfit is completely dusty or has artistic mud splatters on it when you go for your required post-ride micro brew.

The Many Rules of Gravel

They aren’t any more unwritten rules, because I just wrote them here.

dirtdispatch.substack.com

The many rules of gravel is genius. I’d paste them on here but reckon that’s not cool as it’s a substack etc. Very funny very true.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The article somehow left out the most important rule of all: Make sure you aren't riding on fake gravel like they have in England.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

There is definitely gravel in England proper. Gravelmap shows ~500 gravel segments just within the greater London area. Is this some "if my ultramarathon friend wouldn't travel to ride the gravel it doesn't count" thing?

My friend Marek T. (PhD) is back from one of his so many travels. He had a little bit of time for a chat last night. That is what he told me:

'That was the most exciting gravel ride I had in the UK so far. Of course, that was in Scotland, the Caledonian Canal trail. I could ride 3/4 of that route and then unfortunately made a decision to turn eastwards. I do not recommend following my track as I had to carry my bike on mountain trails. The route as exactly shown would be perfect as there are many places for an overnight stay there. There are many boats on the Canal; the boats stop in marinas, and that results in the development of the tourist infrastructure'.

-- 'The route description reads "a road ride". What was the fact?'

'Scotland is most definitely the gravel country! I could even describe my ride as MTB+ where the plus means the necessity to walk or carry the bike on mountain trails!'

-- 'Your impression about England?'

'My rides in England were of the "scenic" type. I was only riding asphalt in Oxfordshire, visiting many villages and estates. Regarding the surface quality: that was nothing special. However, it was the first time after so many years I realised it was actually the Cotswolds HILLS '

This is a small part of Mazovia with presumably many hundreds of gravel roads. However, I live here, ride between 8,000 to 10,000 km a year, and can tell you it is very difficult to plan even a 50/50 gravel/asphalt ride here. All the area is simply built up with asphalt roads, and you actually need to look for gravel... I guess it is the same in England

This heatmap is less impressive, right? However, that's Sudovia in northeast Poland, "the gravel paradise". Not many roads but 99% of them are premium gravel... And no flat segments whatsoever!

The discussion here was the most illustrious and enlightening. What you helped me learn was:

• "Road bike" was All Terrain Vehicle, also perfect as a commuter, especially the carbon version with carbon wheels, aero frame
• "Gravel bike" was the invention of the greedy industry, actually a heavy road bike on wide tyres. The industry has duped hundreds of thousand riders into buying expensive and fashionable gravel bikes
• Some of you rode regular bikes for gravel and MTB in your youth, so why should we be concerned with modern bikes built to a purpose?
• The Creo 1 is good for gravel, and the Creo 2 is a road bike. (Any bike can ride on asphalt, how could I have missed that?)

I really don't know what I would have done without your wisdom. Thank you so much for educating me!

'Can you see the horse and the cow? The cow could have stood by the horse for 20 years but would not still turn into the horse!' (A road bike vs gravel bike).

Based on the info here, I'm now fantasizing about a Creo 2 as my next ebike — hopefully in this lifetime.

No Jeremy. You cannot ride without the throttle. And the e-bike is certainly not suitable for riding the beach

Have a fantastic day!
'

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Welcome to the the geographical 'gravel' tour of England. Your host today will be international gravel racer Josh Reid who is sponsored by GIANT and rides all over the world in international gravel races and ultras. This nice young man when he was still a teen saved up enough money to fly to China where he proceeded to the Giant factory to buy a Giant Revolt and then rode it all the way home to the north of England. He made an amazing doc (on you tube) about this adventure and now he makes these lovely little films about his rides with Giant's help:

Lets start in the north west in the ancient kingdom of Cumbria, in the mountainous Lake District, this runs from the Scottish borders to north of Wales. Very popular with tourists. This is a recce he did for a gravel race in the Lake District.

Now we go further west to the ancient Kingdom of Northumbria and Dirty Reiver probably the largest Gravel race in the UK.

South and East from there along the Pennines the Spine of England, but still in the north and as the locals call it; God's Own Country or Yorkshire. Here he's attempting an Ultra race - road and gravel 600kms, in the Dales Divide:

Further south to the Midlands and Robin Hood Country in Sherwood Forest:

Look out for those arrows!

He has more gravel rides & races all over England (and the world) on his feed. Have a look.

You've already seen some of the West Country & Dartmoor because that's where I live. But what about London?

Well luckily the 9.7 million residents of the metropolis are not forgotten - London is surrounded by hills and forests. This area contains Epping Forest (reachable on the Central Line tube) The Chilterns to the north of London, West we have the Wessex Downs, south we have the Sussex Hills (Home of Rob Rides EMTB) leading to the South Downs all the way to the English Channel and south east we have the Kent Downs likewise going from the borders of London to the English channel and not forgetting the High Weald also along the coast. Or the New Forest further west or the Cotswolds further west or King Alfred's Way a 350km loop through Wessex very popular with gravel cyclists or in the Peak District in the midlands/north near Manchester or the Black Country near Birmingham and so on and so on...

Stefan stop spouting far right style propaganda about England being paved over. Yes it's part of a small Island and yes it has a large population. But like most countries the majority live in the cities and the UK has a wonderful array of ancient forests, mountains & hills and as you can see, miles and miles and miles of gravel of all kinds. So stop this demented vendetta against England a place you clearly don't even know and that has nothing to do about anything on this e Bike thread, except your stupid patriotism and wounded pride that your ignorance has trapped you in.

Finally have a look at this AHOTU calendar: the biggest endurance sport calendar in the world.

I looked up Gravel races in Europe for 2024 & 25. It lists 203 gravel events all over Europe from Finland to Spain.

35 gravel races in England.

2 in Poland.

Gravel biking races 2024 - 2025 in Europe | Ahotu

Browse through gravel biking races 2024 2025 in europe ✔️27 different sports ✔️biggest race calendar ✔️races from over 184 countries

www.ahotu.com

England:

Gravel biking races 2024 - 2025 en England | Ahotu

Browse through gravel biking races 2024 2025 en england ✔️27 different sports ✔️biggest race calendar ✔️races from over 184 countries

www.ahotu.com

Poland

Gravel biking races 2024 - 2025 in Poland | Ahotu

Browse through gravel biking races 2024 2025 in poland ✔️27 different sports ✔️biggest race calendar ✔️races from over 184 countries

www.ahotu.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

2 in Poland

This source is wrong.
Are you saying I rode in both gravel races this year already? No. We have probably as many gravel races a year as the UK does. Only your source is not informed. FYI, I rode Mazovian Gravel and Sudovia Gravel, and intend to ride Great Lakes Gravel this year. Where are these races on AHOTU?

You say about a number of forest and natural parks where the English gravel races are organized. It is not different around Warsaw. The difference being, there is not much gravel roads outside those parks in England, while you can still make a 550 km 50/50% gravel race around Warsaw.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@Rás Cnoic:
Currently, the 2024 calendar of Polish gravel races contains 116 events.
What nation are you talking to?

Source

You can use a translator on the website.

Additional information:

Surface:
England (a country within the UK): 132,932 km2
Poland: 312,696 km2
Mazovia (a province within Poland): 35,579 km2 split into 37 "counties"

Population:
England: around 57 million
Poland: around 38 million.
Mazovia: around 5.4 million.

We simply have more space and less people

 

[Rás Cnoic]

@Rás Cnoic:
Currently, the 2024 calendar of Polish gravel races contains 116 events.
What nation are you talking to?

Ha ha. But nobody gives a s*it! Only you. Complain to AHOTU a prestigious French site renowned for their excellent extreme sports calendars. Guess nobody bothered to check in with Poland

Your point was that England was paved over with no gravel. A bonkers suggestion that just made me waste a large amount of time educating you out of your ignorance about England. It's pretty bloody obvious England has loads of gravel isn't it? SAME AS MOST BLOODY COUNTRIES.

I hope you watched all of Josh's excellent Videos above? Good aren't they?

They are well worth a watch and he makes an excellent guide.

It should really educate you Stefan so in the future you wouldn't have to display your ignorance so publicly. You should thank me really.

Also ... I don't own a Creo and Stefan, for all your bluster, neither do you

I leave you with one more Josh & Giant film. It's The Migration Gravel Race in Kenya. Incredible race of top international gravel riders. It's a FOUR day gravel race at high altitude across the Massi Mara.

Though you might be perplexed Stefan as there is no tarmac/asphalt and no 'gravel' Just plain old Kenyan red mud and dirt with loads of single track and game trails. What on earth were they thinking?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Ras, I'm actually tired with all this quarreling and would be happy if we could come to some peaceful terms.

The fact is, gravel cycling is an American sport. The gigantic Motor Country (where a pedestrian stands no chance in many places!) also has the biggest number of gravel roads in the world. To avoid riding dangerous pavement (an American term), American cyclists started riding long adventurous trips on gravel based on the self-sufficiency principle.

Europe (including the UK) has followed the fashion. Gravel bikes are the bestsellers in many countries (with a notable share in Poland). However, many European countries are heavily paved, so the "adventure cycling" enthusiasts have to look for places where rough terrain actually exists (but it is still not the MTB domain). That makes European and British gravel cyclist ride in forests, national parks and in less developed areas. "As a tailor cuts as much fabric he gets" -- this Polish proverb can explain the situation.

Back to e-bikes:
Creo 1 was designed as a road bike. Yes, the Creo 1 EVO was intended to be a gravel bike but that only involved a dropper seat post and the Shimano GRX drivetrain. Users hated the 12x148 mm Road Boost rear hub (making it hardly possible to install standard gravel wheel with a 12x142 mm hub), the bike geometry, poor clearance for wide tyres, and lack of bosses for the equipment. Creo 2 has come as a 100% gravel e-bike with all the deficiencies removed: gravel bike geometry, generous clearance for wide tyres, multiple bosses, 12x142 mm rear hub, and of course a dropper seat post and the only available electronic drivetrain suitable for gravel bikes.

If anyone is attracted to the idea of a lightweight road racing e-bike, there are many respected brands outside Specialized as Mark correctly pointed out.

You correctly said Ras I don't own a gravel bike. However, I'm riding with the gravel cycling community and know very well what my mates think.

@mschwett said a road bike can ride gravel. True. A man by name Cezary Urzyczyn started in the first edition of Mazovian Gravel on a Specialized Roubaix bike on 33 mm tyres and he came in the second place. He was almost two hours past the winner but come on! all other competitors were behind him! (Cezary had learnt the lesson and next year he started on a proper gravel bike) Now, before any Mazovian Gravel, people jokingly ask Cezary: 'What tyre size now?'

He was 2nd of 117 racers of that early edition.

Just to finish other matters. I have been to the most beautiful places of England (except the Lake District or Cornwall) and Wales (except South Wales). I haven't been to Scotland yet. On July 21st, @Brix and I start our vacation in Donegal Ireland, and we might visit Derry in Northern Ireland as well. I wish you Ras you could visit the most beautiful places of Poland, too

 

[m@Robertson]

You kids are still going at it? Dang.

Looks like some bandages will be needed over certain fingertips.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Ras, I'm actually tired with all this quarreling and would be happy if we could come to some peaceful terms.

The fact is, gravel cycling is an American sport. The gigantic Motor Country (where a pedestrian stands no chance in many places!) also has the biggest number of gravel roads in the world. To avoid riding dangerous pavement (an American term), American cyclists started riding long adventurous trips on gravel based on the self-sufficiency principle.

Europe (including the UK) has followed the fashion. Gravel bikes are the bestsellers in many countries (with a notable share in Poland). However, many European countries are heavily paved, so the "adventure cycling" enthusiasts have to look for places where rough terrain actually exists (but it is still not the MTB domain). That makes European and British gravel cyclist ride in forests, national parks and in less developed areas. "As a tailor cuts as much fabric he gets" -- this Polish proverb can explain the situation.

Back to e-bikes:
Creo 1 was designed as a road bike. Yes, the Creo 1 EVO was intended to be a gravel bike but that only involved a dropper seat post and the Shimano GRX drivetrain. Users hated the 12x148 mm Road Boost rear hub (making it hardly possible to install standard gravel wheel with a 12x142 mm hub), the bike geometry, poor clearance for wide tyres, and lack of bosses for the equipment. Creo 2 has come as a 100% gravel e-bike with all the deficiencies removed: gravel bike geometry, generous clearance for wide tyres, multiple bosses, 12x142 mm rear hub, and of course a dropper seat post and the only available electronic drivetrain suitable for gravel bikes.

If anyone is attracted to the idea of a lightweight road racing e-bike, there are many respected brands outside Specialized as Mark correctly pointed out.

You correctly said Ras I don't own a gravel bike. However, I'm riding with the gravel cycling community and know very well what my mates think.

@mschwett said a road bike can ride gravel. True. A man by name Cezary Urzyczyn started in the first edition of Mazovian Gravel on a Specialized Roubaix bike on 33 mm tyres and he came in the second place. He was almost two hours past the winner but come on! all other competitors were behind him! (Cezary had learnt the lesson and next year he started on a proper gravel bike) Now, before any Mazovian Gravel, people jokingly ask Cezary: 'What tyre size now?'

View attachment 179110
He was 2nd of 117 racers of that early edition.

Just to finish other matters. I have been to the most beautiful places of England (except the Lake District or Cornwall) and Wales (except South Wales). I haven't been to Scotland yet. On July 21st, @Brix and I start our vacation in Donegal Ireland, and we might visit Derry in Northern Ireland as well. I wish you Ras you could visit the most beautiful places of Poland, too

Enjoy Donegal, the weather not looking too bad, bit of rain, sunny spells 15-17c. If you get to Derry, have a walk on the famous walls and check out the Bogside for the living history. On my way to the other end of the country - the annual family expedition to The Kingdom (Kerry) packing body boards and swimming togs and warm fleeces and raincoats, the usual 'pack everything' summer in Ireland. Can't wait.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Enjoy Donegal, the weather not looking too bad, bit of rain, sunny spells 15-17c. If you get to Derry, have a walk on the famous walls and check out the Bogside for the living history. On my way to the other end of the country - the annual family expedition to The Kingdom (Kerry) packing body boards and swimming togs and warm fleeces and raincoats, the usual 'pack everything' summer in Ireland. Can't wait.

@Brix please read the advice from Ras. You and me like it cold but the suggestion of taking a warm fleece or your Irish cardigan and a raincoat is sound!