Getting my first road ebike - Specialized vs Canyon

[Rás Cnoic]

other than the white stuff on the ground (!??!) it actually doesn't look that unlike the ranch and preserve lands just north of san francisco. a bit flatter to be sure and different trees but if someone told me those were marin or sonoma county, i might believe them! nice riding for sure.

Dartmoor is, well, unusual. It's basically a huge raised granite table (with bumps!) about 25 miles long and 15 wide. By US or Aussie standards, tiny. Remains of an ancient mountain range. Then it has all these Shire-like steep & wooded river valleys running off the high moor. But in early Spring especially, the grasses on the high moor die over winter and turn white and the whole place looks like High Plains Drifter!

To protect the open moor you are restricted to cycling on existing ancient paths or bridleways but in the valleys and ridges all around the high moor are hundreds of tracks and lanes to explore and as you are constantly going up the sides of these valleys and dropping into the next valley the road or bridleway will hit 20/25% gradient. Hence the e bike. The cricket pitch in my little town is the only flat ground in miles!

 

[mschwett]

a little closer to the original topic, here's my creo set up for gravel and light singletrack. flat pedal, 42mm rene herse knobby tires, tubeless of course, cheap aluminum wheels, sram 10-42 in the back.

sometimes the gravel is more like easy singletrack, although this particular route also has wooden steps, rutted sections, rocky washouts, etc. but generally perfectly doable on a rigid bike with 38+ tires.

with a group, all different types of bikes from full squish to road.

the only reason i'd ride gravel again is the opportunity to get to relatively uncrowded semi-wild places. otherwise, in this part of the world, i find roads more to my liking. this was an early ride, still clipless.

here's the bike as i had it set up most of the time, one piece cockpit, gp5000 tubeless, roval terra clx rims (25mm interior width, the same rims as on the current s-works creo 2, worked beautifully with 28 and 30mm tubeless road tires), speedplay pedals, etc.

it was a nice road machine, but the gearing really wasn't ideal for areas with hills. OK at the low end, but 42:10 at the high end isn't enough to keep pedaling on a long, fast, hard descent, and the gaps between the cogs are way too big for road riding on the flats where you want to settle into a particular cadence at a particular speed.

here is the road e-bike i replaced it with. it is 5lb lighter (23.5lb vs 28.5lb), has more traditional aggressive road geometry (note the headset), a wider gear range with one tooth steps for the first 5 gears, traditional cranks for a standard and highly accurate power meter, and is much more aerodynamic with a significantly thinner downtube, front fork, faired head tube, dropped seatstay, slightly deeper rims, aero seat post, etc etc etc. in short, it's actually a road bike, not an all-road or gravel bike. each of these elements is relatively small by themselves as compared to creo 2 (except the drivetrain and head tube angle) but add them all up and it's really a very different experience. it does just fine on short (up to a couple km) stretches of dry gravel as needed, but i would never choose it for a ride with significant off-road elements.

i have around 2,000 miles on it and would strongly recommend (as well as the many very very similar bikes from orbea, wilier, etc) to anyone who wants a ROAD e-bike and isn't hoping for it to propel them up steep hills all by itself.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Also, not sure where Stef gets the idea that there isn't much gravel in England. Its, like, kinda famous for it!

It's a relatively small island but that does give us plenty of variety. There's no gravel in the US wilderness/vast forests sense other then forestry roads but miles and miles of a mixture of surfaces which is really good fun.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

a little closer to the original topic, here's my creo set up for gravel and light singletrack. flat pedal, 42mm rene herse knobby tires, tubeless of course, cheap aluminum wheels, sram 10-42 in the back.

View attachment 178908

sometimes the gravel is more like easy singletrack, although this particular route also has wooden steps, rutted sections, rocky washouts, etc. but generally perfectly doable on a rigid bike with 38+ tires.

View attachment 178909

with a group, all different types of bikes from full squish to road.

View attachment 178910

the only reason i'd ride gravel again is the opportunity to get to relatively uncrowded semi-wild places. otherwise, in this part of the world, i find roads more to my liking. this was an early ride, still clipless.

View attachment 178911

here's the bike as i had it set up most of the time, one piece cockpit, gp5000 tubeless, roval terra clx rims (25mm interior width, the same rims as on the current s-works creo 2, worked beautifully with 28 and 30mm tubeless road tires), speedplay pedals, etc.

View attachment 178914

it was a nice road machine, but the gearing really wasn't ideal for areas with hills. OK at the low end, but 42:10 at the high end isn't enough to keep pedaling on a long, fast, hard descent, and the gaps between the cogs are way too big for road riding on the flats where you want to settle into a particular cadence at a particular speed.

here is the road e-bike i replaced it with. it is 5lb lighter (23.5lb vs 28.5lb), has more traditional aggressive road geometry (note the headset), a wider gear range with one tooth steps for the first 5 gears, traditional cranks for a standard and highly accurate power meter, and is much more aerodynamic with a significantly thinner downtube, front fork, faired head tube, dropped seatstay, slightly deeper rims, aero seat post, etc etc etc. in short, it's actually a road bike, not an all-road or gravel bike. each of these elements is relatively small by themselves as compared to creo 2 (except the drivetrain and head tube angle) but add them all up and it's really a very different experience. it does just fine on short (up to a couple km) stretches of dry gravel as needed, but i would never choose it for a ride with significant off-road elements.

View attachment 178917


i have around 2,000 miles on it and would strongly recommend (as well as the many very very similar bikes from orbea, wilier, etc) to anyone who wants a ROAD e-bike and isn't hoping for it to propel them up steep hills all by itself.

That looks a great place to explore! Both bikes look great. Are you tall? What are they 57/58 frame size - Large? XL? I always think aesthetically that large sizes suit road bikes better then small. They both look proportionally correct if you see what I mean. How's the Scott doing? Are you missing the mid drive at all?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Also, not sure where Stef gets the idea that there isn't much gravel in England. Its, like, kinda famous for it!

Pardon me?
In case you not know it. The country most famous of gravel roads is the United States of America. When have been to England recently?

 

[mschwett]

That looks a great place to explore! Both bikes look great. Are you tall? What are they 57/58 frame size - Large? XL? I always think aesthetically that large sizes suit road bikes better then small. They both look proportionally correct if you see what I mean. How's the Scott doing? Are you missing the mid drive at all?

i sized down on the scott, it's a 56, but their sizes run small for sure. the creo was an XL. my aethos is a 58. the reach is probably about 10mm less than ideal, so i got a longer cockpit and i think it fits well. i'm 6'1 or maybe 6'2, with fairly average proportions for that height.

the creo was a big bike by comparison, 50mm more stack, 30mm more wheelbase. but still, more similar than different in the grand scheme of bicycles.

i actually like road bikes in the medium sizes, with a little less head tube, but fit is fit, gotta get it right. i think they look funny when too tall up front or, with compact geometry, if the sloping top tube starts to approach the seat stay angle and look like a mountain bike!

i don't miss the mid-drive, i think the difference is a bit overblown except for serious hill climbing. my kid-hauler is a front hub and works surprisingly well, it's basically two wheel drive with me pedaling the back tire and the motor up front. i am toying with getting a more powerful mid-drive as my younger daughter has gotten bigger, and we've also moved to a much steeper hill.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Oh s*it - You're saying I'm the narcissist here?! Which of course in itself is classic narcissist in denial behaviour!

So I'm the Michael Douglas in Falling Down? Lovely.

Oh s*it, didn't mean that at all! The tips are for managing interactions with the narcissists in your life. You're not on that list.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

i sized down on the scott, it's a 56, but their sizes run small for sure. the creo was an XL. my aethos is a 58. the reach is probably about 10mm less than ideal, so i got a longer cockpit and i think it fits well. i'm 6'1 or maybe 6'2, with fairly average proportions for that height.

the creo was a big bike by comparison, 50mm more stack, 30mm more wheelbase. but still, more similar than different in the grand scheme of bicycles.

View attachment 178921

i actually like road bikes in the medium sizes, with a little less head tube, but fit is fit, gotta get it right. i think they look funny when too tall up front or, with compact geometry, if the sloping top tube starts to approach the seat stay angle and look like a mountain bike!

i don't miss the mid-drive, i think the difference is a bit overblown except for serious hill climbing. my kid-hauler is a front hub and works surprisingly well, it's basically two wheel drive with me pedaling the back tire and the motor up front. i am toying with getting a more powerful mid-drive as my younger daughter has gotten bigger, and we've also moved to a much steeper hill.

I'm 5'10" and bike sizes change from bike to bike as I always seem to hit the gap between medium or large. With the Vado SL I went medium- I had been buying medium MTBs for so long I didn't even think but luckily it fits fine. With my Salsa Vaya I got that used and it's large - a 57. So at first I was concerned but actually its the most comfortable bike to ride, especially on bad roads around here, It's very upright so that's part of it, I have in the past felt far too stretched out on road bikes but the Vaya with the surly Truck Stop bars is crazy high and I love it. The Vaya is never going to break any speed records but nor am I. Heading to Ireland for the annual summer hols with the family next week and it's the Vaya that will be lashed to the car so I can continue exploring places like these:

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Oh s*it, didn't mean that at all! The tips are for managing interactions with the narcissists in your life. You're not on that list.

What do you mean you didn't mean me? How dare you! I insist on being on the list!

 

[mschwett]

I'm 5'10" and bike sizes change from bike to bike as I always seem to hit the gap between medium or large. With the Vado SL I went medium- I had been buying medium MTBs for so long I didn't even think but luckily it fits fine. With my Salsa Vaya I got that used and it's large - a 57. So at first I was concerned but actually its the most comfortable bike to ride, especially on bad roads around here, It's very upright so that's part of it, I have in the past felt far too stretched out on road bikes but the Vaya with the surly Truck Stop bars is crazy high and I love it. The Vaya is never going to break any speed records but nor am I. Heading to Ireland for the annual summer hols with the family next week and it's the Vaya that will be lashed to the car so I can continue exploring places like these:

View attachment 178922

nice, very jealous of that plan!! that bike is a modern classic, very very nice.

 

[jabberwocky]

Pardon me?
In case you not know it. The country most famous of gravel roads is the United States of America. When have been to England recently?

Well, sure. I've never been to the UK and am an American. But having followed gravel for a long time I'm used to seeing lots of UK gravel content and UK riders. Its definitely a place with a significant gravel scene! Even a brief perusal at gravelmap shows tons of unpaved segments across the UK.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

here is the road e-bike i replaced it with. it is 5lb lighter (23.5lb vs 28.5lb),

Just noticed this. Made me laugh as my (non electric) Vaya is around 27lbs! That Scott is so SHARP looking.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Well, sure. I've never been to the UK and am an American. But having followed gravel for a long time I'm used to seeing lots of UK gravel content and UK riders. Its definitely a place with a significant gravel scene! Even a brief perusal at gravelmap shows tons of unpaved segments across the UK.

You've done it now. You're gonna be replying to Stefan all day long!

Here he comes! "You're talking about g r a v e l?"

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Downtube shifters! Love it.

And that Scott is a pretty nice looking setup as well. My only experience with hub drives was my first ebike back in 2016, a very basic cadence sensor. It was quite different from my Cannondale touring bike, that’s for sure, but you were basically a passenger. Assist 1 was 10mph, 2 was 15, 3 was 20, like that. As long as you pedaled at all that’s what it did.

My Creo is a little different. There’s a Creo 2 over in Vermont at a shop in Putney, I have to get over there and inspect the thing.

 

[Prairie Dog]

You've done it now. You're gonna be replying to Stefan all day long!

Here he comes! "You're talking about g r a v e l?"

It might simply be the case of being a one trick pony. Any other disciplines outside of gravel riding may not appear on his radar. We should be endorsing all styles of riding regardless of what type of machine we choose to ride or which region of the globe we hail from. I’m just glad that there are many passionate members on this forum and many times I'm envious seeing where others ride. @Rás Cnoic those pics around Dartmoor are amazing as well as is that classic Salsa. Very nice.

@mschwett – Fine pics of your rides as well. I was at one time keenly interested in a Scott Solace eride but alas there don’t seem to be many dealers up here who carry the 2x road version of that bike. Glad to see that you have taken to your Addict especially knowing the area where you ride. No experience with hub drives myself.

 

[mschwett]

…. My only experience with hub drives was my first ebike back in 2016, a very basic cadence sensor. It was quite different from my Cannondale touring bike, that’s for sure, but you were basically a passenger. Assist 1 was 10mph, 2 was 15, 3 was 20, like that. As long as you pedaled at all that’s what it did.

yeah! it’s all in the programming. the x20 uses a bottom bracket based torque sensor, so the relationship between how hard you pedal and how much assist you get and at what speeds is really exactly the same as a mid-drive bike. the tuning parameters are exactly the same as well, with maximum and ratios and so on.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

It might simply be the case of being a one trick pony. Any other disciplines outside of gravel riding may not appear on his radar. We should be endorsing all styles of riding regardless of what type of machine we choose to ride or which region of the globe we hail from. I’m just glad that there are many passionate members on this forum and many times I'm envious seeing where others ride.

And also what they ride. Somebody has to ride the dream bikes, and I like seeing and hearing about it.

Nothing inherently us-them about riding bicycles, and why not keep it that way? Unite around the joy of cycling. Good will toward responsible cyclists of every stripe — utility and recreational riders and serious athletes alike.

Everything to gain from this approach. Nothing of value to lose.

 

[BlackHand]

still have no clue why you want to see my local roads tarmac or gravel. But here's a selection all from with 15 miles of my house and from the last 4 years - It's coming up to 4 years since I got my Vado SL and Dartmoor-ised it:

View attachment 178887


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Great pictures Ras!

Please kindly submit your aggregate samples to the lab in Mazovia for gravelnalysis and certification

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Well, sure. I've never been to the UK and am an American. But having followed gravel for a long time I'm used to seeing lots of UK gravel content and UK riders. Its definitely a place with a significant gravel scene! Even a brief perusal at gravelmap shows tons of unpaved segments across the UK.

Did you notice you never mentioned "England" in the sentences above?
For your information, England is one of the four countries forming the United Kingdom. Of those, Wales is the MTB paradise, and Scotland...

I asked a friend, Marek T. who is an ultramarathon gravel racer, and whose academic position allows him travelling and riding all world round. Last night, I wrote to him:
-- ' Marek, where were the most exciting gravel routes of the UK?'
-- 'Of course it was Scotland ))' -- 'I recommend riding along Caledonian Canal between Inverness and Fort William'
-- 'Will you send me your ride record please?'
-- 'Yes but let me do it tomorrow as I am falling to bed right now!'

So much for England gravel riding. One could as well say Poland was a MTB country but the person would certainly only mean Glacensis in southwest Poland... Not Mazovia. Do you get the parallel? Ras lives next to a National Park and draws the conclusion England is full of offroad. It is like I were saying Mazovia is full of of forest singletracks because I live just 14 km from the Kampinos National Park

There are a lot of MTBers riding there because the terrain is difficult. No one would say Mazovia was MTB or gravel country. Like England, it is simply too much populated and developed.

Of course, there must be some gravel races in England. We do not have much gravel in Mazovia, and it is more sand and dirt as well as forest singletracks than gravel here, still Mazovia holds the largest gravel event in Poland.

Necessary to mention I do not own a proper gravel bike. You wouldn't believe perhaps but we have our gravel Nazis here, and some events specifically allow drop-bar gravel bikes only.

Mazovian Gravel 250 (2023). I wouldn't be able to take part in MG550, though.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

So much for England gravel riding.