Generic MD 1000 and HD 750 ebike model discussion

[tykoehn1]

catstrophic IGH failure yesterday.... pedaling up a moderate hill on PAS 5 and the rear drive sprocket slipped out of the three notches and then proceeded to rip the bearing cage apart... now what? Can this be rebuilt? Whats the best replacement option that isnt going to grenade when I go into the backcountry hunting on some potentially gnarly terrain? I noticed the Rohloffs are quite a bit "beefier" and more expensive, but I figured in for a penny in for a pound... The thing I noticed with Rohloff is the shifter is opposite of the Sturmey IGH. How does one rectify that shifter situation? Is there a less expensive option with perhaps the Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub? Do they make 190mm size? I reached out to Cindy Lan and she gave me a SRAM option for around $400 shipped. Would this be more "reliable" in the back country? Im pretty pissed at this point....

reach out to http://sturmey-archerparts.com/ and see if you can get parts. He is getting the 220 mm axles soon and going to send me a couple. The problem is going to be putting all the internal parts back together.

http://sturmey-archerparts.com/completelist.htm

 

[carp]

Sorry that happened. If you don't mind I have a couple of questions

Did you tighten the chrome plated axel nut (both sides) on the bike anytime after you received it?

You mentioned being in PAS 5, what gear were you in and were you pedaling and or using the throttle at that time?

Clearly, the SA RX-RK5 IGH is not suitable for this powerful ebike. As a backcountry hunting rider, I believe the SRAM option would be the best short term option and would be the easiest and least expensive to repair/replace. As for other IGH's, the implementation of one of these by a customer would not be a simple plug and play situation e.g. expensive and complicated. I'm aware that Leili as well as Bikonit and Bolton are on a day forward basis, looking for a replacement IGH belt drive.

I hope they will consider the current user base when implementing this IGH-belt replacement. Leili informed me that Bikonit is reporting many problems with the SA IGH and that should increase the chances of a retrofit IGH for the current customer base. Leili told me they were going to evaluate several IGH units and that might take some time. Again, in your situation and use case, I think the SRAM option might be the best drivetrain for you. I have over 1500 miles on my SA IGH although currently, every ride includes at least some minor slippage of the IGH belt as well as more violent (noisy) ghost shifting and motor cutoffs. Since I purchased 2 extra batteries I no longer have range anxiety with the MD 1000 but I, as well as virtually everyone else who owns this model is now afflicted with drivetrain anxiety.

I have tried to be reasonable about this issue and if you read this thread and the other review thread here on EBR, I was aware of a certain amount of risk associated with the SA IGH. The direct communication (PDF attached below) with Sturmey Archers US representative gave me more confidence that possible issues with the IGH could be mitigated by careful operation (no shifting under load) and ongoing cable adjustment due to cable stretch. I carefully followed those instructions as well as making sure the drivetrain nuts and bolts were properly tightened. Despite my taking all of those precautions, 1500 miles in I am convinced that the SA RX-RK5 IGH is not a reliable drivetrain for this ebike. It is now up to the sellers of this bike to make it right with the many owners of this model.

I purchased the SRAM replacement kit (same price you were quoted) and will install it if (actually when) my IGH fails but my preference would be to have a functional and reliable IGH on this bike. I expect the manufacturer and their business partners will come up with an upgrade IGH solution. In the spirit of good customer service, they should offer this upgrade to the existing client base for free or at least, at a reasonable cost. I for one, will be carefully watching this situation and I advise all other MD 1000 owners to do the same.

I had tannus armor put in both tires and it failed on the first ride afterward, so therefore it leads me to believe they possibly didnt tighten them correctly.. I should have double checked their work evidently....

I was in first gear, with PAS 5 and with throttle... guess I assumed it could handle it since that is what the bike is made to do... shame on me? It very frustrating to me that she told me it (IGH) would be "strong enough for the type of demands I was going need.

What are some of the drawbacks I can potentially expect from the SRAM system? Is this going to serve me better going up steeper hills with a load? I have a small trailer I was hoping to tow with minimal amount of gear as well.

 

[RMK!]

That really sucks. I had a finger loose axel nut after I had my Tannus inserts installed. Luckily, I caught it after a test ride. The motor should do the job you need done but the IGH will continue to be an issue. The MD 1000 is the only "hunting" adventure ebike I have seen with an IGH option and now I know why.

The SRAM should work much better if setup/adjusted properly. Powering up a hill in an appropriate gear should be fine but shifting using high level PAS engaged or under full throttle can damage the chain/cassette. No drivetrain will survive this motor if the operator isn't careful. A single speed belt drive may be an exception but might burn out the motor climbing hills under full power.

 

[WhitzATL]

Finally have been able to ride this hog. The noises coming from this thing scare me, not sure what's a normal sound vs something is wrong sound.

 

[RMK!]

Finally have been able to ride this hog. The noises coming from this thing scare me, not sure what's a normal sound vs something is wrong sound.

The tick tick tick sound is normal for the IGH. If you hear metal clunking/clanking sounds, they are abnormal IGH noises. Other than those, it's a pretty quiet machine ...

 

[GEF]

What are some of the drawbacks I can potentially expect from the SRAM system? Is this going to serve me better going up steeper hills with a load?

I have SRAM 11 speed, and honestly don't need that many gears. 42T granny gear with 44T chain ring, almost 1:1, is too much torque on dirt, just spins out, and it's way more torque than I need on any paved road around here no matter how steep. While holding throttle in high gear, I run out of pedal resistance and can't do anything to add my own power. With a bigger chain ring, I'd have higher top speed. However I would only want that on road, and I could only legally do it off-road.

The recent problem I had, derailleur getting caught in spokes, only happened because derailleur was already out of position after a tumble. Yeah, it couldn't have happened with IGH, but it also wouldn't have happened if I'd had the presence of mind to inspect my bike after the crash, instead of assuming that if I was fine, it must be too. For what it's worth, I could bend everything back into place and keep riding, but fatigued metal would be more likely to give me a serious problem later.

And of course clean and lube chain, but you knew that already.


PS: How'd Tannus work for you? The way you wrote your intro, it kind of sounded like the armour failed and you got a flat already, but I think the failure you referenced was the IGH.

 

[RMK!]

I have SRAM 11 speed, and honestly don't need that many gears. 42T granny gear with 44T chain ring, almost 1:1, is too much torque on dirt, just spins out, and it's way more torque than I need on any paved road around here no matter how steep. While holding throttle in high gear, I run out of pedal resistance and can't do anything to add my own power. With a bigger chain ring, I'd have higher top speed. However I would only want that on road, and I could only legally do it off-road.

The recent problem I had, derailleur getting caught in spokes, only happened because derailleur was already out of position after a tumble. Yeah, it couldn't have happened with IGH, but it also wouldn't have happened if I'd had the presence of mind to inspect my bike after the crash, instead of assuming that if I was fine, it must be too. For what it's worth, I could bend everything back into place and keep riding, but fatigued metal would be more likely to give me a serious problem later.

And of course clean and lube chain, but you knew that already.


PS: How'd Tannus work for you? The way you wrote your intro, it kind of sounded like the armour failed and you got a flat already, but I think the failure you referenced was the IGH.

Thanks for the info. It's good to know the 9 speed SRAM will suffice for my riding purposes. I rode the HD 750 with the SRAM 9 speed and thought it was fine. I will continue to adjust and shift the SA IGH for a while but I am looking forward to not have IGH failure looming during long remote rides. I'd hate to have to push this bike for miles with a motor that functions but no way to get power to the rear wheel. It would be a nice feature of an IGH to allow for locking the IGH in a single gear but even that feature is suspect as I do experience slipping and gear clunking during powered operation in a single gear. In other words, shifting is not the only cause of IGH distress, just riding along under power can induce gear distress.

BTW, the Tannus Armor inserts are great and well worth the investment.

 

[Sonder]

I am a bit shocked about these major problems.
Oké, I don't want the 1000 with belt, but I am doubtfull about this company not seeing these problems in manufacturing.

Ik don't ride trails myself but for people here who live in USA...won't a Sondors Rockstar be a much better choice?
Quality wise and 35 miles ph.

 

[RMK!]

I am a bit shocked about these major problems.
Oké, I don't want the 1000 with belt, but I am doubtfull about this company not seeing these problems in manufacturing.

Ik don't ride trails myself but for people here who live in USA...won't a Sondors Rockstar be a much better choice?
Quality wise and 35 miles ph.

The Sondors Rockstar looks interesting and if their marketing claims are true then maybe it is a better option but it's not in production yet and their late August delivery claims make it several months away so qualitative judgements are premature.

The SA IGH was poorly vetted by Leili (et al) and is unquestionably the primary issue with the MD 1000. It is available with a SRAM chain/cassette drivetrain so purchasing the MD 1000 thusly equipped should eliminate it's primary liability. In fact the MD 1000's Bafang Ultra 1500W motor and dual 15ah batteries will have greater range and power than the Sondors with it's 750W motor and single 21ah battery.

Ironically, although I ordered the IGH version of the MD 1000 when sent a picture of my actual bike at the factory, it was a SRAM equipped one. I mentioned this to my agent, and he last minute switched me to an IGH equipped bike. The Sturmey Archer RX-RK5 IGH on a heavy powerful ebike is simply a horrible option. Mine @ 1600 miles on the odometer is now regularly clunking/clanking, ghost shifting and I expect it to completely fail any day now despite my constant adjustment and careful operation. I have to believe all MD 1000 IGH owners regardless of who they purchased them from will experience these issues. Had I bought from Bikonit or Bolton and paid $5K for this bike I would be seriously pissed. As it is, I'll have spent another $600-$800 more than the $3050 delivered price I paid to switch out to the SRAM drivetrain.

I'm not on Facebook but I would be very interested in how the Bolton - Bikonit FB user communities are reacting to this problem.

 

[Sonder]

Ik thought maybe sonders would be earlier in USA with delivery but apparently not.

The 30ah against 21ah for the Rockstar oké, but reviewers said 35 miles per hour, so this 750 is tweaked good I think.

Don't know about pricing

 

[AztecElvis]

I have a HD1000 on order. On 3-25-21, Sandy LV said early April shipment. Today she says end of month will arrange shipment bc “lack of front fork.”

 

[Vewlix]

I have a HD1000 on order. On 3-25-21, Sandy LV said early April shipment. Today she says end of month will arrange shipment bc “lack of front fork.”

I ordered the same month and wasn’t expecting them to ship until June/July at the earliest.

 

[AztecElvis]

I ordered the same month and wasn’t expecting them to ship until June/July at the earliest.

I ordered in January 2021. Sorry if my post wasn’t clear.

 

[RMK!]

I hope you guys ordered the SRAM cassette chain setup ... I decided to have a LBS do the installation of the new rear wheel kit and SRAM drive train. They are booked out until the end of May so till then I'm whistling through the graveyard with the IGH. I might be able limp to 2000 miles (@1650 now) which will probably be a longevity record for the SA IGH equipped MD 1000.

I'm really interested to see how Bikonit/Bolton deal with this issue. I asked Kyle (Bolton) if he would like to do my rear wheel swap out (I'd pay him) and get ahead of the problem by creating documentation (perhaps a video) for the swap out that his Warthog MD 1000 customers could use but he declined. Not sure he or Bikonit realizes the inevitably of this IGH's failure.

I feel for @tykoehn1 and his 5 MD 1000's and hope he has been able to work something out with Leili.

 

[MJinLA]

I hope you guys ordered the SRAM cassette chain setup ... I decided to have a LBS do the installation of the new rear wheel kit and SRAM drive train. They are booked out until the end of May so till then I'm whistling through the graveyard with the IGH. I might be able limp to 2000 miles (@1650 now) which will probably be a longevity record for the SA IGH equipped MD 1000.

I'm really interested to see how Bikonit/Bolton deal with this issue. I asked Kyle (Bolton) if he would like to do my rear wheel swap out (I'd pay him) and get ahead of the problem by creating documentation (perhaps a video) for the swap out that his Warthog MD 1000 customers could use but he declined. Not sure he or Bikonit realizes the inevitably of this IGH's failure.

I feel for @tykoehn1 and his 5 MD 1000's and hope he has been able to work something out with Leili.

I don't think Kyle will be adversely affected because I honestly don't think the average user will put that many miles on it. It will be one of the toys in the garage that they break out on the weekends every now and then.

 

[RMK!]

I don't think Kyle will be adversely affected because I honestly don't think the average user will put that many miles on it. It will be one of the toys in the garage that they break out on the weekends every now and then.

While I think you may be correct, assuming your clients won't use the product you sold them hence you don't need a strategy regarding a flawed mission critical component is a very poor business practice. If the SA IGH isn't setup correctly (many were not) it won't take long for the IGH to start acting up and these more casual users will start complaining. To me, that seems inevitable.

I think the simple, cheap IGH/belt drive experiment is over. A viable tech option does not exist (IMHO) and scabbing on Rohloffs or Kindernays is expensive and futile. I knew it was a risky proposition when I purchased the MD 1000 and after 3.5 months of riding, I am convinced that at this point an IGH it is a really poor choice for a reliable ebike drive train. Reliability was the main reason for my IGH choice and so this was a mission NOT accomplished experiment. If you own one of these SA IGH equipped ebikes, I suggest you retrofit a standard cassette/chain drive train.

Until a company comes up with a fully warrantied IGH belt drive that was specifically designed for heavy, powerful ebikes, it's asking for trouble and who needs that on an adventure ebike?

 

[FatTire]

I don't think Kyle will be adversely affected because I honestly don't think the average user will put that many miles on it. It will be one of the toys in the garage that they break out on the weekends every now and then.

Mine snapped the axle at less than 25 miles.

 

[MJinLA]

Mine snapped the axle at less than 25 miles.

Well, there goes that theory.

 

[RMK!]

Ik thought maybe sonders would be earlier in USA with delivery but apparently not.

The 30ah against 21ah for the Rockstar oké, but reviewers said 35 miles per hour, so this 750 is tweaked good I think.

Don't know about pricing

The Bafang Ultra mid-drive versions of these bikes are capable of 35mph + when the controller is unlocked. If you had ever ridden an ebike like these at 35mph I think you would feel that was sufficient speed.

I finally tired of the now constant clanking, clunking and phantom shifting of the of SA IGH. I left it at a LBS with the SRAM cassette chain drive for exchange. All bike shops near me are slammed and so it will be 2 or 3 weeks till it's ready. I know the conventional SRAM drivetrain will have its own issues and I'm hoping to mitigate that a bit by programming the motor and riding style. It's such a fun bike when operating correctly and despite all the delays and hassles I'm not sorry I bought it. Luckily, I have another ebike to ride and so will continue to pile up the miles.

 

[RMK!]

Sturmey Archer RX-RK5 IGH update:

I had a short email exchange with Kyle at Bolton ebikes and he indicated that Bikonit (I assume that includes Leili) are working on an alternative IGH option. He has had discussions with China about the SA IGH and has seen photos but nothing is being offered at this time. It seems that neither Leili or Bikonit are offering the MD 1000 with IGH at the moment so they are taking this seriously. Again, I suggest MD 1000 owners contact their seller agent and register a complaint about the SA IGH. If it isn't a current problem and/or your not riding much it will become an issue when you put some miles on the bike. I received a message from my agent at Leili indicating that they are currently testing a 14 speed inner hub drive and will have the test results in a month or so. Although I received no indication of brand, the 14 speed might indicate it is the Rohloff E14 or a variant of that IGH. That would be very interesting ...

My SA IGH was fine for the first few hundred miles and I believe that was due to my riding it using mostly pedal assist (level 3 or 4) and, I seldom used the throttle. I recently started using both throttle and pedaling and although that is a really fun way to ride, it will cause the IGH to wear quickly and once it starts slipping gears, that damage can't be undone.

I do believe that IGH and belt drives are the future of ebikes but until there is a reliable cost effective solution designed specifically for ebikes, it is a bad idea.