FS Watt Wagons

[pushkar]

Right that was my understanding too, the Archon is more efficient than the stock Bafang but can also handle more power also being more smooth and responsive in torque sensing, so I definitely want a Archon. However it sounds like the 750w X1 is more efficient than the 2300w X1 this is what I am trying to nail down so I can decide which Archon to get. Again I understand using 2300w drains a battery faster than 750w, the point is can the 2300w version put out 750w on a lower assist with the same losses as the 750w Archon.

Can you please clarify what you mean by efficiency ? I am not quite sure if I am using that term the same way you are.

In terms of Wh/ mile

1. 750W X1 uses less Wh/mile compared to 2300W X1 (reasons mentioned above)
2. 2300W X1 Wh/mile is very close to 1000W stock bafang. So it is efficient compared to the stock programming.

Why does the 750 uses energy than 2300W ?

1. Well 2300W pulls more amps from the battery at any assist level than the 750W.
2. For 750W version, it typically pulls 15A continuous, and we cap the amp pull to 21A (peak).
3. For 2300W, it typically pulls 45A continuous, and we cap the amps the controller can pull to 60A (peak).

 

[reed scott]

Personally I don't care very much about the technicalities of all this. I just want to have fun. I'm sure there will be unknown variables and maybe disappointments as well as unanticipated positive surprises. I'm just glad to be in around/near the cutting edge. I'm not taking off on a trans-continental excursion looking for the perfect conveyance. I might try that some day though. I have found an innovative ebike builder that obviously is doing it right and hallelujah .... lets go! Perfection later ... maybe down the road. Hopefully I'll croak before the money runs out.

 

[scrambler]

@pushkar, I think what he wants to know is the following.
If you take and Archon X1 750W version and use the motor at 750W, and if you compare that to an Archon X1 2300W but only use the motor at 750W, would these have the same efficiency, or would the Archon 2300W configuration be less efficient while used at the same 750W of power.

I would have assume it would be the same, but I think this is what he is trying to confirm.

Used at the same power level of 750W, is there an efficiency difference between the Archon X1 limited to 750W and the Archon X1 limited to 2300W?

 

[reed scott]

@pushkar, I think what he wants to know is the following.
If you take and Archon X1 750W version and use the motor at 750W, and if you compare that to an Archon X1 2300W but only use the motor at 750W, would these have the same efficiency, or would the Archon 2300W configuration be less efficient while used at the same 750W of power.

I would have assume it would be the same, but I think this is what he is trying to confirm.

Used at the same power level of 750W, is there an efficiency difference between the Archon X1 limited to 750W and the Archon X1 limited to 2300W?

 

[pushkar]

@pushkar, I think what he wants to know is the following.
If you take and Archon X1 750W version and use the motor at 750W, and if you compare that to an Archon X1 2300W but only use the motor at 750W, would these have the same efficiency, or would the Archon 2300W configuration be less efficient while used at the same 750W of power.

I would have assume it would be the same, but I think this is what he is trying to confirm.

Used at the same power level of 750W, is there an efficiency difference between the Archon X1 limited to 750W and the Archon X1 limited to 2300W?

I’m not sure I quite understand how the rider can restrict the 2300 W motor to the same power level as the 750W?

if the goal is to restrict amps using programming cable, or a display (future firmware feature) to 750 W, then there’s no difference between motor1@750w and motor2_formerly2300w@750W.

 

[scrambler]

Sorry if I was not clear. I am not saying limited, I am saying when both controllers configuration provide the same amount of power, are they equally efficient.

Just because you have an Archon X1 2300W, does not mean you are always using 2300W.
Depending on the Power assist level you are using, you may only be using a fraction of that. So depending on the power assist level you are using and the power you apply, there will be cases where both motors are providing the same amount of power.

For example, let us say you are a rider that can apply 230Watts to the pedal
Now imagine the Controller offers 5 pedal assist levels mapped the following ways for the Archon 2300W
Level1: Adds 2X the riders power or 460W
Level2: Adds 4X the rider power or 920W
Level 3: Adds 6X the rider power or 1380W
Level 4: Adds 8X the rider power or 1840W
Level 5: Adds 10X the rider power or 2300W

On an Archon X1 750W, The mapping when applying 230W would be something like
Level1: Adds 0.65X the riders power or 147W
Level2: Adds 1.3X the rider power or 920W
Level 3: Adds 1.96X the rider power or 451W
Level 4: Adds 2.6X the rider power or 600W
Level 5: Adds 3.26X the rider power or 750W

So when applying 230W, the Archon X1 750W at level 3 would provide the same power as an Archon X1 2300W at level 1 (about 450W)

Would both be equally efficient?

 

[jharrell]

Sorry if I was not clear. I am not saying limited, I am saying when both controllers configuration provide the same amount of power, are they equally efficient.

Just because you have an Archon X1 2300W, does not mean you are always using 2300W.
Depending on the Power assist level you are using, you may only be using a fraction of that. So depending on the power assist level you are using and the power you apply, there will be cases where both motors are providing the same amount of power.

For example, let us say you are a rider that can apply 230Watts to the pedal
Now imagine the Controller offers 5 pedal assist levels mapped the following ways for the Archon 2300W
Level1: Adds 2X the riders power or 460W
Level2: Adds 4X the rider power or 920W
Level 3: Adds 6X the rider power or 1380W
Level 4: Adds 8X the rider power or 1840W
Level 5: Adds 10X the rider power or 2300W

On an Archon X1 750W, The mapping when applying 230W would be something like
Level1: Adds 0.65X the riders power or 147W
Level2: Adds 1.3X the rider power or 920W
Level 3: Adds 1.96X the rider power or 451W
Level 4: Adds 2.6X the rider power or 600W
Level 5: Adds 3.26X the rider power or 750W

So when applying 230W, the Archon X1 750W at level 3 would provide the same power as an Archon X1 2300W at level 1 (about 450W)

Would both be equally efficient?

Thanks scrambler, this is exactly what I am asking.

If I where to program the PAS level for the 2300 archon I would probably do something like

2300w Level 1 = 750w Level 1
2300w Level 2 = 750w Level 3
2300w Level 3 = 750w Level 5
2300w Level 4 = 1000w Level 5
2300w Level 5 = Full power

Obviously if you have more levels like 10 then you have even more fidelity here to work with and I know this is over simplifying things, but bottom line it sounds like the hardware is the same so its only a matter of programming, which is good news. And If I purchase the programming harness perhaps I can tune that more to my preference?

As far as efficiency, I am talking about the same efficiency referenced when it is said the Archon is 15% more efficient than the stock Bafang, can I go the same distance at the same speed in the same conditions on a Archon X1 2300w as I can with a 750w? Thats the bottom line. I would prefer to buy the higher power 2300w, there are many situations where I would want to use its full potential, but most of the time I would want to keep it more in the 750w power levels for the range and component wear and safety etc. Just like on my current ebike with 750w hub, I am usually on a lower assist to keep Whr/mile down and not have it be so touchy, but when I need it or want it I bump it up to full power and eat the watt hours.

 

[jharrell]

1. Well 2300W pulls more amps from the battery at any assist level than the 750W.

So this seems to be the core issue, again it sounds like simply how the assist levels are programmed and not a hardware limitation. Honestly not the way I would do it, I would have at least some of the lower assist levels ramp down to the 750w version, sometimes you want to get the exercise or not have so much help and of course increase range, sounds like though currently if you go with a 2300w you will alway be on assists levels above the 750w max if I am reading that right.

Not sure if its possible but it would be nice to have assist profiles that are easily switchable, so you can flip say between an eco (750w) and sport (2300w) mode which changes all the assist levels.

 

[AdilDesai]

I’m not sure I quite understand how the rider can restrict the 2300 W motor to the same power level as the 750W?

if the goal is to restrict amps using programming cable, or a display (future firmware feature) to 750 W, then there’s no difference between motor1@750w and motor2_formerly2300w@750W.

Hmm. Now I'm confused. I always assumed that there was one Bafang motor but that you had the ability to program it to 750, 1000 or 2300 Watts. But this comment implies that there are actually three different Bafang Ultra motors. Is that the case?

 

[scrambler]

But this comment implies that there are actually three different Bafang Ultra motors. Is that the case?

One motor.
different controllers like the native Bafang controller, or the Archon X1.
For the Archon X1, I understand the various configuration (750/1000/2300) are just different programming of the controller.

Remember you can send your regular motor to have its controller replaced by the Archon

 

[coldriderwi]

Hmm. Now I'm confused. I always assumed that there was one Bafang motor but that you had the ability to program it to 750, 1000 or 2300 Watts. But this comment implies that there are actually three different Bafang Ultra motors. Is that the case?

I didn’t read that comment as multiple motors - but the same motor programmed with different limits.

 

[scrambler]

Below is an interesting video on MTB carbon frame building.
It also give you an Idea of what the Ultra carbon frame would look like with a clear finish (see first and last few minutes of the video)
Making a Carbon Fibre Bike Frame – From CAD Design to Downhill Race - YouTube

 

[pushkar]

OK, i just

Thanks scrambler, this is exactly what I am asking.

If I where to program the PAS level for the 2300 archon I would probably do something like

2300w Level 1 = 750w Level 1
2300w Level 2 = 750w Level 3
2300w Level 3 = 750w Level 5
2300w Level 4 = 1000w Level 5
2300w Level 5 = Full power

Gotcha

Yes we can do that scenario for sure. That is the way to set it up using the programming cable.

 

[RandomCrap]

Oh, I like that setting. I do want to get some exercise, after all. That's how I justified it to my wife!

 

[pushkar]

So this seems to be the core issue, again it sounds like simply how the assist levels are programmed and not a hardware limitation. Honestly not the way I would do it, I would have at least some of the lower assist levels ramp down to the 750w version, sometimes you want to get the exercise or not have so much help and of course increase range, sounds like though currently if you go with a 2300w you will alway be on assists levels above the 750w max if I am reading that right.

Not sure if its possible but it would be nice to have assist profiles that are easily switchable, so you can flip say between an eco (750w) and sport (2300w) mode which changes all the assist levels.

Yes you can set PAS 1-5 as the 750W mode and The Sport mode PAS 1-5 as the 2300W mode. Absolutely doable with the software.

 

[pushkar]

Sorry if I was not clear. I



So when applying 230W, the Archon X1 750W at level 3 would provide the same power as an Archon X1 2300W at level 1 (about 450W)

Would both be equally efficient?

no worries. I think I was getting confused about something else. The motor is the same so as long as both motors are operating at 750, they will have the same efficiency.

 

[reed scott]

Yes you can set PAS 1-5 as the 750W mode and The Sport mode PAS 1-5 as the 2300W mode. Absolutely doable with the software.

Well fooey. Y'all are makin me think. I hate thinkin. Hard work. So given all this about just how to set up the X1 controller and all this theory and speculatin ... How DO you set up the controller on a 2300 watt bike with throttle enabled Pushkar? Evidently there are multiple schemes and folks can have it to their liking. What is the standard usual configuration?

 

[pushkar]

Well fooey. Y'all are makin me think. I hate thinkin. Hard work. So given all this about just how to set up the X1 controller and all this theory and speculatin ... How DO you set up the controller on a 2300 watt bike with throttle enabled Pushkar? Evidently there are multiple schemes and folks can have it to their liking. What is the standard usual configuration?

I did a whole video here ...

Notice the very first column called "Wattage Torque" - it is set to 100% for each level. You can set an individual PAS level to 33% to tune the PAS level from a 2300W motor to act like a 750W version.

The new UI is slightly better and we have added a parameter - but you can see that you can pretty much control every single PAS level, torque assist etc

 

[reed scott]

I did a whole video here ...

Notice the very first column called "Wattage Torque" - it is set to 100% for each level. You can set an individual PAS level to 33% to tune the PAS level from a 2300W motor to act like a 750W version.

The new UI is slightly better and we have added a parameter - but you can see that you can pretty much control every single PAS level, torque assist etc

"you" ... as in 'me' Pushkar? I don'ts do no programing suh. I'se just a simple man who only uses Mac computers. So what would you suggest?

 

[pushkar]

"you" ... as in 'me' Pushkar? I don'ts do no programing suh. I'se just a simple man who only uses Mac computers. So what would you suggest?

No worries. If you want to set profiles in a particular way, please let me know and I can ensure it is set up the right way before we ship.