FS Watt Wagons

[pushkar]

Help a noob out. Please someone define 'boost' as used here. I've often seen this term in regards to bikes and have no idea what it means. Thanks

Typical front wheel axle is 100mm wide.
Boost spacing is (typically) 110mm wide.
1. Spreads out the load over a slightly (10%) wider hub thereby making the wheel stronger.
2. Boost allows you to put a wider tire on the hub while retaining good control. (typically up to a 3.1/ 3.2 inch)

 

[jharrell]

Any idea on the range for the Hydra? Also any opinion on the plus vs fat tire? Was a little surprised the fat tire option was extra, making me think I would be ok with the plus size although I do like my current fat tire ebike.

 

[pushkar]

Any idea on the range for the Hydra? Also any opinion on the plus vs fat tire? Was a little surprised the fat tire option was extra, making me think I would be ok with the plus size although I do like my current fat tire ebike.

Offroad biking is different from commuting. Realistically depending on terrain you can get anywhere from 30-50 miles on the battery. If you do more climbing, it will be at the lower end of the range, if you are more flat, it is near the higher end of the range.

Fat tire - all 3 components are more expensive for those
1. Fork
2. Rims
3. Tires

If you want to re-use your fat tire components, you can actually get the frame / motor / battery combo... that's a thought.

 

[jharrell]

Offroad biking is different from commuting. Realistically depending on terrain you can get anywhere from 30-50 miles on the battery. If you do more climbing, it will be at the lower end of the range, if you are more flat, it is near the higher end of the range.

Fat tire - all 3 components are more expensive for those
1. Fork
2. Rims
3. Tires

If you want to re-use your fat tire components, you can actually get the frame / motor / battery combo... that's a thought.

Thanks pushkar,

Yes I am very aware of range variance based on conditions, I typically do flat paved 20-40 mile rides at around 20mph, but I do like to take it trail riding and when camping to the mountains etc. so looking for a bike that an do it all , really like what I am seeing with carbon, full suspension and the archon mid drive. Also use a Grin charger and try do 85% charges and keep it above 20% for pack longevity. So trying to see how the Hydra can match up vs my current fat tire bike with 1000 wHr battery which I can push pretty hard and still get 50 miles on a 100% charge.

Ah so its not just the tires and rims, also have to jump the fork too, so fat tire is going to be a $700 upgrade at least.

 

[pushkar]

Thanks pushkar,

Yes I am very aware of range variance based on conditions, I typically do flat paved 20-40 mile rides at around 20mph, but I do like to take it trail riding and when camping to the mountains etc. so looking for a bike that an do it all , really like what I am seeing with carbon, full suspension and the archon mid drive. Also use a Grin charger and try do 85% charges and keep it above 20% for pack longevity. So trying to see how the Hydra can match up vs my current fat tire bike with 1000 wHr battery which I can push pretty hard and still get 50 miles on a 100% charge.

Ah so its not just the tires and rims, also have to jump the fork too, so fat tire is going to be a $700 upgrade at least.

On flats you should be able to hit closer to 50 for sure (with 100% charge) with regular tires.
Yes, i included fork in the list of components for the fat tire That is definitely the largest $$ jump I would say.

 

[reed scott]

Thanks pushkar,

Yes I am very aware of range variance based on conditions, I typically do flat paved 20-40 mile rides at around 20mph, but I do like to take it trail riding and when camping to the mountains etc. so looking for a bike that an do it all , really like what I am seeing with carbon, full suspension and the archon mid drive. Also use a Grin charger and try do 85% charges and keep it above 20% for pack longevity. So trying to see how the Hydra can match up vs my current fat tire bike with 1000 wHr battery which I can push pretty hard and still get 50 miles on a 100% charge.

Ah so its not just the tires and rims, also have to jump the fork too, so fat tire is going to be a $700 upgrade at least.

You want range but you want fat tires. The two don't go together.

 

[pushkar]

You want range but you want fat tires. The two don't go together.

Thanks. I edited my response for the range (i missed the fat tire part).

 

[jharrell]

On flats you should be able to hit closer to 50 for sure (with 100% charge) with regular tires.

Would be interested to know how efficient a Archon Bafang Mid-drive vs a 750w Bafang Rear Hub I have now for the same power output, have any idea? I know the stock Bafang mid drive is not know for its efficiency.

 

[jharrell]

You want range but you want fat tires. The two don't go together.

But are plus size that much better? Get plenty of range with my current fat tire, but thats because it has a huge battery, love how it can go over anything and be comfortable on the road. My butt wears out at about 40 miles so a solid 50 is good, and full suspension should help with comfort even with the lack of fat tires.

 

[pushkar]

Would be interested to know how efficient a Archon Bafang Mid-drive vs a 750w Bafang Rear Hub I have now for the same power output, have any idea? I know the stock Bafang mid drive is not know fir its efficiency.

I do not know the answer to that. We have compared mid drives at somewhat equal power to come up with comparative numbers. That being said, I do not think that a 2300W motor will consume less or equal power than a 750W hub motor. So realistically that is not something we can promise.

Our motors are averaging anywhere from 15-23Wh/mile on flats (from 750W to 2300W nominal) with regular tires. On inclines lets add 20-30% more = so that is 20-30wh/mile
You mentioned your motor does 45-50 miles with a 1000Wh pack on inclines ... so that is around 20-22Wh/mile.

I think we can safely say that on the same battery pack with inclines awe might be close in most low nominal wattage scenarios (750W) - but will probably be off by a lot on higher wattage scenarios (2300W).

 

[jharrell]

I do not know the answer to that. We have compared mid drives at somewhat equal power to come up with comparative numbers. That being said, I do not think that a 2300W motor will consume less or equal power than a 750W hub motor. So realistically that is not something we can promise.

Our motors are averaging anywhere from 15-23Wh/mile on flats (from 750W to 2300W nominal) with regular tires. On inclines lets add 20-30% more = so that is 20-30wh/mile
You mentioned your motor does 45-50 miles with a 1000Wh pack on inclines ... so that is around 20-22Wh/mile.

I think we can safely say that on the same battery pack with inclines awe might be close in most low nominal wattage scenarios (750W) - but will probably be off by a lot on higher wattage scenarios (2300W).

Yes I am usually in the 15-20 Wh/mile range, 20 is a "fun" ride on flats where I don't hold back or care about wind etc and might do long sections 25mph+. It does prompt me to ask if I did go with a 2300 option does that mean it is less efficient at same speed than the 750? I guess I assumed same efficiency , that is same speed same power (in same conditions of course) and the extra wattage could be used to go faster or accelerate faster if needed. I know my current bike has 5 assist levels and they seem to be basically current limiters, so I can keep it at say 3 (my usual setting) and it won't really pull more than 750w but if I go up to 5 it will pull 1300w on a full charge (its a 25 amp controller).

 

[pushkar]

Yes I am usually in the 15-20 Wh/mile range, 20 is a "fun" ride on flats where I don't hold back or care about wind etc and might do long sections 25mph+. It does prompt me to ask if I did go with a 2300 option does that mean it is less efficient at same speed than the 750? I guess I assumed same efficiency , that is same speed same power (in same conditions of course) and the extra wattage could be used to go faster or accelerate faster if needed. I know my current bike has 5 assist levels and they seem to be basically current limiters, so I can keep it at say 3 (my usual setting) and it won't really pull more than 750w but if I go up to 5 it will pull 1300w on a full charge (its a 25 amp controller).

So the thing is that a more powerful motor will provide more assist at the same rider input levels. So i would not say that the Wh/mile will be the same.

The higher wattage motor will provide more assist (and thus draw more power)
- from start to cruise (so you can get to cruise faster)
- for each pedal revolution (so you can maintain higher speed at lower cadence)

Let me know if that helps.

 

[jharrell]

So the thing is that a more powerful motor will provide more assist at the same rider input levels. So i would not say that the Wh/mile will be the same.

The higher wattage motor will provide more assist (and thus draw more power)
- from start to cruise (so you can get to cruise faster)
- for each pedal revolution (so you can maintain higher speed at lower cadence)

Let me know if that helps.

So does that just mean the assist levels are different? This makes sense in that say you have 5 levels like my current bike, level 5 is 750w on the 750w version while level 5 is 2300w on the 2300w, so if I want similar Whr/mile on the 2300 I would need to keep it on a lower assist level then the 750 version? The idea being I want the 2300 in reserve if needed, but most of the time I will keep it in lower assist level for good range, but if there is something fundamentally different on the 2300 that makes it less efficient even at the same power levels (different hardware components or software limitations) then that will definitely effect my decision making.

 

[Edrummer]

It is my understanding that the bike will boot up in 750 watt street legal mode. You can choose to boot up in a higher power mode if you want to.

 

[pushkar]

So does that just mean the assist levels are different? This makes sense in that say you have 5 levels like my current bike, level 5 is 750w on the 750w version while level 5 is 2300w on the 2300w, so if I want similar Whr/mile on the 2300 I would need to keep it on a lower assist level then the 750 version? The idea being I want the 2300 in reserve if needed, but most of the time I will keep it in lower assist level for good range, but if there is something fundamentally different on the 2300 that makes it less efficient even at the same power levels (different hardware components or software limitations) then that will definitely effect my decision making.

I would say the difference is akin to a prius smaller engine, versus a v8 engine. Both can do pretty much anything but v8 on an average will provide more assist.

 

[reed scott]

So does that just mean the assist levels are different? This makes sense in that say you have 5 levels like my current bike, level 5 is 750w on the 750w version while level 5 is 2300w on the 2300w, so if I want similar Whr/mile on the 2300 I would need to keep it on a lower assist level then the 750 version? The idea being I want the 2300 in reserve if needed, but most of the time I will keep it in lower assist level for good range, but if there is something fundamentally different on the 2300 that makes it less efficient even at the same power levels (different hardware components or software limitations) then that will definitely effect my decision making.

Seems just common sense to me that the 2300 watt version will consume more battery more readily. People here on the board who have gotten the Wattwagons X1 have chosen not to go full 2300 watts for that reason. Stating it is just not necessary for most riders. Another, highly skilled and experienced rider has built himself a huge triangle battery for his Travelanche (sp?) so he has no such worries. Personally I'm getting the 2300 because I'm a bit nuts about power but may never even really use it. I also don't go on 50 mile rides on this sort of bike. More like 20 most of the time. But I have hills and loose soil/loose gravel to deal with in most of my riding area.

Additionally ... 2300 watts can mangle any currently used drive train in a split second. This worries me and knowing me ... I'll likely do it. Then I'll just have to call up Pushkar and order new parts and learn to be more judicious in my throttle use. I'm kinda hoping with this motor I may not need the throttle at all and plan to not use it until I've put dozens of hours of riding behind me in low PAS settings. ( note to self: take the damn throttle off the bike for a while or you know you will screw up )

 

[jharrell]

Hmm guess Im still not getting it, a Prius and a V8 have different engines, different mechanical components, the V8 has much more displacement and therefore more pumping losses among other things, therefore it is inherently less efficient than the smaller Prius motor even if given the same amount of fuel, there are physical differences that cannot be ignored.

With the Bafang mid drive and Archon controller my understanding was the difference between the 750w and 2300w version is just firmware/software, all mechanical and electric components are the same, am I mistaken? Does the 2300w controller have different electronic components that allow more power but are less efficient at lower power outputs? Does the motor have different windings? is it larger? Since I thought these where just difference in software I assumed you could attain similar efficiency with the 2300w version compared to the 750w so long as the assist levels where equivalent in power but that the 2300w had much more head room to open up if needed.

 

[scrambler]

Hmm guess Im still not getting it, a Prius and a V8 have different engines, different mechanical components, the V8 has much more displacement and therefore more pumping losses among other things, therefore it is inherently less efficient than the smaller Prius motor even if given the same amount of fuel, there are physical differences that cannot be ignored.

With the Bafang mid drive and Archon controller my understanding was the difference between the 750w and 2300w version is just firmware/software, all mechanical and electric components are the same, am I mistaken? Does the 2300w controller have different electronic components that allow more power but are less efficient at lower power outputs? Does the motor have different windings? is it larger? Since I thought these where just difference in software I assumed you could attain similar efficiency with the 2300w version compared to the 750w so long as the assist levels where equivalent in power but that the 2300w had much more head room to open up if needed.

My understanding was that at similar power level usage, the archon X1 is More efficient than the standard controller.
So if you use the Ultra with an Archon Controller at 750W and you compare to a standard ultra motor at 750W, the Archon equipped motor should be about 15% more efficient.
@pushkar can correct me if I misunderstood

 

[jharrell]

My understanding was that at similar power level usage, the archon X1 is More efficient than the standard controller.
So if you use the Ultra with an Archon Controller at 750W and you compare to a standard ultra motor at 750W, the Archon equipped motor should be about 15% more efficient.
@pushkar can correct me if I misunderstood

Right that was my understanding too, the Archon is more efficient than the stock Bafang but can also handle more power also being more smooth and responsive in torque sensing, so I definitely want a Archon. However it sounds like the 750w X1 is more efficient than the 2300w X1 this is what I am trying to nail down so I can decide which Archon to get. Again I understand using 2300w drains a battery faster than 750w, the point is can the 2300w version put out 750w on a lower assist with the same losses as the 750w Archon.

 

[reed scott]

Right that was my understanding too, the Archon is more efficient than the stock Bafang but can also handle more power also being more smooth and responsive in torque sensing, so I definitely want a Archon. However it sounds like the 750w X1 is more efficient than the 2300w X1 this is what I am trying to nail down so I can decide which Archon to get. Again I understand using 2300w drains a battery faster than 750w, the point is can the 2300w version put out 750w on a lower assist with the same losses as the 750w Archon.

Split the baby. 1000 watt sounds like your kind of bike.