Experience Thread: A noobie getting into a specialized vado 5.0 IGH

[dynamic]

Or you can buy a Wahoo or Garmin device. Come on, you know you want to!

Ha! I seriously considered trying a garmin watch. But yuck. I can’t even confirm it will gather ant+ data for garmin connect to use. Npe cable is the right solution for me. If there is one Currently available for this bike.

 

[e-boy]

dynamic's next ebike ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...minutes-make-debut.html#v-1288610834920653504

 

[dynamic]

dynamic's next ebike ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...minutes-make-debut.html#v-1288610834920653504

Does it support apple health?

 

[dynamic]

dynamic's next ebike ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...minutes-make-debut.html#v-1288610834920653504

Can I remote start it with my apple watch?

 

[e-boy]

 

[mschwett]

@dynamic what are you specifically trying to do? i know you said that you “want access to the data” but is that while you’re riding? if so, in what way that mission control doesn’t suffice? if after the fact, in what way that an export from mission control doesn’t suffice?

there are limitations to what specialized has done, but it’s not a walled garden. you simply disagree with the choices they made about which devices/protocols to support. they support ANT+ for real-time data output, GPX and FIT file export, or real-time control and dashboard via mission control on a bluetooth enabled smartphone, iOS or android. they have conspicuously not chosen to implement an industry-standard bluetooth output of the power, cadence, and speed data, which i am pretty sure is not because they’re idiots, it’s because of the limitations of the existing “industry standard” protocols around e-bikes, particularly controlling them. e-bikes have a million different features and implementations and it’s way easier to simply use your own protocol (a derivative of a standard one no doubt) than both develop a control protocol and also broadcast via separate pairing to other devices. i have another eBike which used bluetooth for dashboard and control… and guess what? it also is proprietary. like specialized, people have decided the protocol to gain access, and also like specialized, the manufacturer has shut various things off over time. that bike doesn’t even have ANT+.

specialized has a long history as a regular bike maker. their attitudes towards electronics probably started there, and are evolving. the bike world is ANT+, not bluetooth. my aethos transmits power and cadence and shifting information via bluetooth and ANT+, like just about every other high end non-e-bike they make, but where you don’t get both, you only get ANT+. i wish the creo broadcast via bluetooth in addition to ANT+ but it really isn’t a big deal. and i love data. so i’ll ask again: what specifically are you trying to do? i’ve used my creo without a bike computer and monitored, charted, and sliced the data many many ways without jumping over any garden walls.

 

[dynamic]

@dynamic what are you specifically trying to do? i know you said that you “want access to the data” but is that while you’re riding? if so, in what way that mission control doesn’t suffice? if after the fact, in what way that an export from mission control doesn’t suffice?

If I use mission control to record the ride, I don't collect heart rate data and I don't have navigation available. So, I use RWGPS to record the ride which gives me heart rate, apple watch stats and controls as well as all the standard navigation and GPS capabilities and data. But it lacks bike data like cadence and power because specialized isn't sharing that data to anything that isn't ant+ or their own app (no current android phone supports it either. so I can't even "Switch to android" and get the data anymore. but a few years ago, that might have worked. samsung used to support ant+). So, if I want navigation, and heart rate data combined with the bike data recorded for every ride...... the only option available today is a bike computer + a new heart rate monitor since no bike computer integrates with phones well enough to provide that. NPE Cable *is* potentially the answer, allowing iPhone apps to pickup ant+ data while still pulling heart rate from apple watch (as well as making the watch functionally useful on ride from a stats and other perspectives, which I use on every ride). This is assuming some app does a decent job recording the data provided by npe cable.

the power, cadence, and speed data, which i am pretty sure is not because they’re idiots, it’s because of the limitations of the existing “industry standard” protocols around e-bikes

You have used npe cable. It does this, does it not? It takes the ant+ signal and broadcasts it over BTLE and it works well for the five or six supported data profiles. What apps did you use to record the signal on your phone? Do you think that the npe cable device is beyond the capabilities of specialized engineers to replicate from the bike?

The better question is, why is there so much resistance to letting the phone have the data (this seems to be prevalent across much of the industry)? Why are people so against using a phone as your bike computer? Where is this coming from? Do they do more than what Bluetooth Smart currently supports? Maybe. But that doesn't mean they couldn't put the compatible data into Bluetooth and say "sorry it doesn't support our crazy fancy X Y Z thing but here is the rest of it". At least power,cadence and the other standard profiles would be available.

Ant+ *is* a walled garden. It may not be intended to be one, but it is one. Why? because there are so few options for getting data out of it. Lots of accessories that *add* to the data, sure. But not pull it out. And since the manufacturers that adopt it appear to be actively blocking other paths for the data to flow, they turned it into a walled garden.

And, again, for a bike at this price, given a refrigerator or washer and dryer comes with data sharing bluetooth these days, a bike that actually *has* useful data to share, should be sharing it.

Why is it the one device I actually want to have bluetooth implemented well, doesn't have it?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If I use mission control to record the ride, I don't collect heart rate data and I don't have navigation available. So, I use RWGPS to record the ride which gives me heart rate, apple watch stats and controls as well as all the standard navigation and GPS capabilities and data. But it lacks bike data like cadence and power because specialized isn't sharing that data to anything that isn't ant+ or their own app (no current android phone supports it either. so I can't even "Switch to android" and get the data anymore. but a few years ago, that might have worked. samsung used to support ant+). So, if I want navigation, and heart rate data combined with the bike data recorded for every ride...... the only option available today is a bike computer + a new heart rate monitor since no bike computer integrates with phones well enough to provide that. NPE Cable *is* potentially the answer, allowing iPhone apps to pickup ant+ data while still pulling heart rate from apple watch (as well as making the watch functionally useful on ride from a stats and other perspectives, which I use on every ride). This is assuming some app does a decent job recording the data provided by npe cable.

You can get more information from Mission Control if you just start Specialized Ride app. Your Mission Control recorded rides will show up there with some more information including motor power and cadence. You can export or share a .FIT file from the Ride app. Just to clarify.

I have subscriptions of Strava and RWGPS. For me, RWGPS is ideal for route planning, and it fantastically connects to my both Wahoo ELEMNT computers (Roam and Bolt v2). I actually paid for RWGPS when I discovered the Wahoo "Take Me To..." function was only offering a single route to a chosen destination while I needed better alternatives. (As you Derrek know, you need to be a RWGPS subscriber to plan your routes on a smartphone). Strava is my "cycling social media", and of course I'm getting my power, cadence, calories, and all other ride parameters in both Strava and RWGPS; I get the HR data in both systems if I choose to wear my Polar OH-1, too.

Now: all good HR chest straps and "real time data" wrist monitors as well as many smartwatches connect to both Specialized e-bikes and bike GPS computers. Apple Watch is a sad exception.
-------------------
;tldr Bosch E-Bike systems are a true walled garden
Bosch E-Bike Story (I do not intend to bash Bosch E-Bikes but that's what I read here in the Forums). Current Bosch E-Bikes can be equipped with:

• Purion: a bare-bone minimalistic e-bike display, no connectivity. Offered on many premium Bosch E-Bikes because it is so cheap for the OEM.
• Intuvia: More information on the display, no connectivity
• (Current) Kiox: Even more information, probably E-Bike Connect capability.
• Smartphone Hub: Probably the worst of Bosch E-Bike contraptions. The phone holder breaks (you do not need to mount your phone there if you do not want to do it). The software written by some Indian startup is of the "BLOKS-class" and it has not been updated for years. E-Bike Connect capable. (The users rant about it and do everything to replace the Smartphone Hub with something better).
• New Nyon. Let me elaborate.

E-bike manufacturers (OEMs) typically do not install the Nyon on their e-bikes as the display is very expensive. Yes, you may buy a Nyon and ask the LBS to rewire everything to get the Nyon working. You will pay approximately as much as a decent bike GPS computer costs. And you get the built in GPS Navigation that does not work well in the United States and the maps are not being updated. Yes, you can create a GPX in RWGPS and upload it to Nyon. However, you cannot do it from RWGPS directly: The only supported direct system is Komoot. Eventually, you get your ride data in E-Bike Connect. E-Bike Connect exports the rides to Strava but will it do it for RWGPS?

The Nyon will not let the Apple Watch connect to it. You can combine the HR data and the Nyon ride data post ride but that's tricky.

There is a new Bosch Smart System with Kiox 300 and Flow app that promises miracles. Find a Smart System e-bike in the market first.
-------------------

Why are people so against using a phone as your bike computer? Where is this coming from?

Major reasons not to use the smartphone while cycling:
On the handlebars/stem

• Vulnerability of the smartphone to crashes, even banal ones (such as bike falling at a stop). Vibration may send your $1,000 phone flying at any time, especially in rough terrain or on potholes. Ask me how I know.
• Susceptibility to raindrops that might actually act instead of your fingers on the touchscreen. Water resistance?
• For many phones, necessity to go past the lock screen. (Face detection might not work with your helmet on; a fingerprint? In gloves?!)
• Difficulty to operate the smartphone in gloves
• Difficulty to operate the smartphone when the device shakes because of road/terrain vibration
• Taking a lot of valuable handlebar or stem space.

General (including keeping the phone in the jersey pocket)

• Short battery life. It might not be important to you on your short rides but many of people here spend more hours on their trips than the phone battery can hold
• Necessity to recharge the phone with a battery pack/powerbank on long rides.

Bike GPS computers or capable bike GPS smart watches are free of all the above deficiencies. Even touchscreen Garmin Edge can be operated from a remote! (Wahoo ELEMNT is button based, worth every cent; and it is smartphone-centric!)

Having said the above, there are advanced e-bikers who are happy with using smartphones with their Specialized bikes. Not sure how @mschwett does it but @Prairie Dog certainly uses his smartphone on the stem of his Creo (Creo comes without any display).

 

[mschwett]

If I use mission control to record the ride, I don't collect heart rate data and I don't have navigation available. So, I use RWGPS to record the ride which gives me heart rate, apple watch stats and controls as well as all the standard navigation and GPS capabilities and data. But it lacks bike data like cadence and power because specialized isn't sharing that data to anything that isn't ant+ or their own app (no current android phone supports it either. so I can't even "Switch to android" and get the data anymore. but a few years ago, that might have worked. samsung used to support ant+). So, if I want navigation, and heart rate data combined with the bike data recorded for every ride...... the only option available today is a bike computer + a new heart rate monitor since no bike computer integrates with phones well enough to provide that. NPE Cable *is* potentially the answer, allowing iPhone apps to pickup ant+ data while still pulling heart rate from apple watch (as well as making the watch functionally useful on ride from a stats and other perspectives, which I use on every ride). This is assuming some app does a decent job recording the data provided by npe cable.


You have used npe cable. It does this, does it not? It takes the ant+ signal and broadcasts it over BTLE and it works well for the five or six supported data profiles. What apps did you use to record the signal on your phone? Do you think that the npe cable device is beyond the capabilities of specialized engineers to replicate from the bike?

The better question is, why is there so much resistance to letting the phone have the data (this seems to be prevalent across much of the industry)? Why are people so against using a phone as your bike computer? Where is this coming from? Do they do more than what Bluetooth Smart currently supports? Maybe. But that doesn't mean they couldn't put the compatible data into Bluetooth and say "sorry it doesn't support our crazy fancy X Y Z thing but here is the rest of it". At least power,cadence and the other standard profiles would be available.

Ant+ *is* a walled garden. It may not be intended to be one, but it is one. Why? because there are so few options for getting data out of it. Lots of accessories that *add* to the data, sure. But not pull it out. And since the manufacturers that adopt it appear to be actively blocking other paths for the data to flow, they turned it into a walled garden.

And, again, for a bike at this price, given a refrigerator or washer and dryer comes with data sharing bluetooth these days, a bike that actually *has* useful data to share, should be sharing it.

Why is it the one device I actually want to have bluetooth implemented well, doesn't have it?

yes, the bike could undoubtedly also broadcast the standard power/cadence/speed data over Bluetooth - but it would have to be in addition to the more robust control connection that the bike makes with the phone. additional work, additional complication, and it’s actually not that common for a single device to make multiple outbound Bluetooth connections at once. most sensor type devices I’ve used actually can only be paired to one receiver, so what you’re talking about is undoubtedly possible but not common and possibly not simple. I would definitely like it if the bike did it, but it’s an edge case.

ANT+ is the farthest thing from a walled garden. there are hundreds of incredibly cheap devices which broadcast and receive (and repurpose) the data. it is far better suited to bikes than Bluetooth is in some ways, including having always been “one to many” :

One fundamental way ANT+ and Bluetooth differ is that ANT+ can be used to connect one thing to multiple other things, while Bluetooth is a one-to-one connection for each type of thing. For instance, you can connect your ANT+ heart rate monitor to four different computers at once, or four heart rate monitors to one computer (although you’ll have to pick which one’s data you see). With Bluetooth, you can pair one heart rate monitor to one computer. If you want to use another computer, you’ll have to disconnect the first one.

there are also long established profiles for things like speed, cadence, power, power balance, etc via ANT+.

if all you want is heart rate data and navigation, quit pushing rocks uphill. get a Bluetooth heart rate strap (cheap,) pair it with mission control, and use whatever app you feel like for navigation. post-ride mission control will automatically upload to Strava, including the heart rate and power data, and from there you can do anything you want with your data. download the GPX, parse it with a zillion add-ons, etc. use any app you like for navigation… I prefer RwGPS. your phone can run them simultaneously, no problem, and a quick swipe on the screen will switch.

the Apple Watch is not a good HRM for cycling. Trust me. I spent a long time, over probably 30 rides and a thousand miles trying variations of heart rate monitors while cycling. if you insist on using it, it will (unreliably) pair with RwGPS and you’ll have heart rate data in the RwGPS file. it’s the work of 10 seconds on a free web app to merge the HR track into the mission control file. you’ll pretty quickly discover that the vagaries of the Apple Watch HR measurement frequency and the inherent inaccuracy of a wrist based device while cycling make it a poor choice.

if you really, really want to use only one app, wait until the cable is back in stock… or kill two birds with one stone and get the viiiva version. I have both, found the cable easier to set up, but they’re similar. literally the ONLY re I got them is because I wanted to see average power over various intervals during a ride, which mission control stupidly doesn’t do. most of the time I don’t bother though, because mission control and my heart rate strap work really well.

finally, I do sympathize with your disinterest in a bike computer. i don’t really like them either, and have no interest in carrying around an extra device when my phone clearly has all the capability needed. I do disagree with Stefan’s concerns with using a phone as bike computer, but my use case is different. I don’t use a bike computer since specialized gives me everything I need (on both my bikes!) to use my phone instead. closing in on 10,000 miles in several states on the west coast over two years, and i have excellent data of every single ride, including speed, power, heart rate, and position, and I’ve never touched a bike computer.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

finally, I do sympathize with your disinterest in a bike computer. i don’t really like them either, and have no interest in carrying around an extra device when my phone clearly has all the capability needed. so, I don’t use one, since specialized gives me everything I need (on both my bikes!) to use my phone instead. closing in on 10,000 miles in several states on the west coast over two years, and i have excellent data of every single ride, including speed, power, heart rate, and position, and I’ve never touched a bike computer.

Although I greatly agree to what you wrote (except of the quoted part), let me tell you one thing. Given the type of e-bikes you own and your trips you were so kind share with me, I assume you mostly ride smooth pavement, with good gravel roads coming next. Not my case! After I lost as many as four smartphones ($250 price range each), I decided to replace the smartphone with what all my gravel/off-road riding mates own: the bike GPS computer. Not that flexible as the smartphone but without any deficiencies of the latter. Connectable.

Meanwhile, my expensive smartphone safely resides in the back pocket of my jersey, and it can run Mission Control or BLEvo. Funnily enough, doing so requires me to buy a new powerbank as any of my recent 100-130 km rides resulted with the phone battery going flat (it is the Samsung S21 Ultra 5G I would have never placed on the bars!)

Exactly one year ago. An overkill: The Vado display, the Wahoo ELEMNT Roam, and an inexpensive smartphone for BLEvo, all on the bars. Then I equipped my e-bikes with Innerbarends grips, and the smartphone had to go because of lack of the real estate on my bars (That smartphone managed to survive my rides because I removed it from the handlebars in time!)

Note: The Bluetooth channel has become encrypted by Specialized for the MasterMind e-bikes, making BLEvo useless for new Spec e-bikes. Reportedly, the Bluetooth channel could be used by some smart-asses to take the control over the e-bike and derestrict it. Or, Specialized believed it could be done. Indeed... With standard Vado or Vado SL, the battery is practically cut off at 5% battery level, only keeping the lighting and the system alive. With BLEvo SmartControl option, I could use the SL battery for assist down to 1%, meaning the app took the control over the e-bike!

 

[mschwett]

since this thread has too many words…. some photos!

before i gave up on the apple watch for cycling:

mission control:

RwGPS:

and here's how i roll today for either a more serious creo ride, (or any non-e-bike ride), heart rate strap instead of watch, cadence app. this image happens to be from the aethos but it would look exactly the same on the creo; i even have the same cockpit now! NOTHING is allowed on my bars except the phone

 

[mschwett]

Although I greatly agree to what you wrote (except of the quoted part), let me tell you one thing. Given the type of e-bikes you own and your trips you were so kind share with me, I assume you mostly ride smooth pavement, with good gravel roads coming next. Not my case! After I lost as many as four smartphones ($250 price range each), I decided to replace the smartphone with what all my gravel/off-road riding mates own: the bike GPS computer. Not that flexible as the smartphone but without any deficiencies of the latter. Connectable.
...

i do mostly ride paved roads! not sure they qualify as smooth, lol. i've done a bit of gravel and singletrack on the creo when equipped with knobby tires, and i can say the iphone mini on quadlock is incredibly secure. no issues on trails with steps, ruts, rocks, etc, but i'm fairly slow on that kind of stuff.

i could pick the bike up with it, seriously. but i would not do so, and if i rode MTB i would probably stick it in my pocket.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

NOTHING is allowed on my bars except the phone

Because your Creo (not even mentioning Aethos) came without the display, haha! Derrek has his wonderful MasterMind display. It is only the question should the display be duplicated (or enhanced) with the smartphone? What you say Mark is true: Quadlock with a dedicated integrated case should be a pretty safe solution.

Now, it is up to Derrek to make most out of his Vado and find a solution satisfactory to him!

 

[dynamic]

Guys, both of you have fundamental misunderstandings of the points here.

ANT+ is the farthest thing from a walled garden.

You can't see it because you are already inside. All ways to get the data out of ant+ are heavily proprietary and/or, don't integrate with the ecosystems they are exploiting. Specialized treats their apps like they are bike computers with zero integration to the platform they are hosted on. Bike computers are exactly the same, except they are independent (so they at least have an excuse) and only send data to services like strava. Specialized apps essentially take your phone and dumb them down to the state of a bike computer. Not just any bike computer, a simple one lacking navigation. If you are happy with this, and don't care about centralizing your health data from multiple sports, wear an additional hrm, use multiple apps to track a ride and are happy with strava (because it's strava or komoot for mission control) .... sure. It's great. That's a long list of requirements for a solution that "is the farthest thing from a walled garden". In reality, every one of those things exist to get around walled garden problems. Specialized ant+ is unquestionably a walled garden as it stands today. You are simply ok with the workarounds.

Ant+ itself is very capable of being part of a very open environment. It just isn't on a specialized bike. And the decline of devices that integrate it with anything else is a bit alarming from a longevity perspective.

There is something that every solution involving getting data off the bike has in common (except possibly npe cable): more work for me while also inherently restricting my choices about where the data is stored and how it is used. Again, clearly a walled garden.

To illustrate this: Can you please show me how all this data that you happily collect gets to RWGPS instead of Strava? You are using it on your bike. Doesn't it get the data too?

I am not against a bike computer on principal. In fact, I often like dedicated devices to solve problems. But those dedicated devices can't ignore the wider ecosystems. Apple is big enough to make their walled garden not *feel* limiting because there are so many choices inside it. Any dedicated device that wants to exist in the apple and android world we live in, needs to be aware of those things and offer the user deep integration with at least those two ecosystems.

Calling specialized class leading is like calling a blackberry phone class leading. Yeah, maybe before the iPhone. The unfortunate reality is there isn't an Apple of bikes out there yet to show just how backward all of this stuff is. The difference between apple with the iphone and specialized is everything specialized needs to bring the equivalent class leading capabilities in their industry has been available since 2013 (possibly earlier). They don't even need to invent it. Granted, apple was trying to solve those problems for *decades*. The apple newton was an amazing earlier attempt. But, neither the world nor the technology was quite ready. I am not sure specialized is even trying to revolutionize this aspect of biking. My fear is they may be actively trying to wall themselves off.

 

[mschwett]

@dynamic we have tried to be helpful, but at this point i have to say that you simply do not know what you are talking about or are simply being argumentative for it’s own sake. the ANT+ implementation is not a walled garden. it was not created with the intent of creating a monopoly. it is specifically absolutely completely open. you just don’t like the devices (hundreds of them!) it works with, nor do you like that apple and google have chosen not to support it on their phone.

Ant+ itself is very capable of being part of a very open environment. It just isn't on a specialized bike. And the decline of devices that integrate it with anything else is a bit alarming from a longevity perspective.

the specialized ANT+ implementation is exactly as it is on literally tens of millions of other bikes and bike related devices. completely open, completely industry standard. every day new devices are released. if you really wanted to “integrate it” with something else, you’d just buy the readily available viiiva bridge and get on with your riding…

good luck with your pursuits - you’re going to need it!

 

[dynamic]

*sigh* guys I have a serious question @mschwett and @Stefan Mikes

Do you honestly think specialized is done improving this experience? Is it perfect? Nothing could be better? Do you not want to improve it?

You guys honestly feel like the people that saw the iphone come out and instantly said “it could never succeed” as you clung to your blackberry. Largely because they couldn’t imagine people using a touch interface. No buttons? That could never work. “No one will want that”…. That’s basically the level of resistance to change that appears to be happening here.

And I honestly can’t even comprehend thinking like that. I am an engineer. When I look at *anything* the first thing I think is: “you could improve this by….”

I am not trying to be rude. You guys are just baffling to me.

 

[mschwett]

*sigh* guys I have a serious question @mschwett and @Stefan Mikes

Do you honestly think specialized is done improving this experience? Is it perfect? Nothing could be better? Do you not want to improve it?

You guys honestly feel like the people that saw the iphone come out and instantly said “it could never succeed” as you clung to your blackberry. Largely because they couldn’t imagine people using a touch interface. No buttons? That could never work. “No one will want that”…. That’s basically the level of resistance to change that appears to be happening here.

And I honestly can’t even comprehend thinking like that. I am an engineer. When I look at *anything* the first thing I think is: “you could improve this by….”

I am not trying to be rude. You guys are just baffling to me.

you’re not being rude, you just don’t get it. i’ve lived and worked in the bay area my entire life. i live and breathe technology and have since i could walk. you don’t need to make iPhone metaphors here, i had the first one too.

i agree (agreed long ago) that it would be great if there were industry standard bluetooth protocols for eBike data output. but, there isn’t, and specialized has provided an industry standard open data output on their bikes. of course there is room for improvement and i have no doubt that the industry will eventually get to a better place. but in the meantime, there are many ways to get and use the data, and the fact that you’re resistant to basically every single one of them indicates where the problem lies.

if you seriously think there is a manufacturer doing something better, i would love to hear an example of an eBike with said connectivity - meaning BOTH ANT+ and BLE, with BLE broadcast of motor power, rider power, power balance, cadence, speed, and level of multiple batteries which can be “read” by cycling apps like cadence, cyclemeter, RwGPS, etc. if you really want to go down a bluetooth cycling data rabbit hole, go talk to the zwift addicts. they’ve been pissing into this wind for years.

here’s a limited example of the data i have for every one of my vanmoof, creo and aethos rides of the last two years.

overall ride data including bike watt hours, elevation climbed, total miles, and average speed. three different bikes

scatter of heart rate vs rider power for the strongest one hour of a recent subset of rides

 

[GuruUno]

Gee, and for the last 2 days my "Mission Control" just spins and spins and says "processing".
Been down this road before, 'Rider-I-Don't-Care' is of zero help.

 

[GuruUno]

Just got off the phone with Rider Care (yeah....they talked to me ), and they are aware of a bug in the Mission Control app and are working on a fix. I'm told that I'm not the only one......
ME, I say that it could very possibly be something to do with the emergency Apple updates pushed out last week that may have changed something...we shall see.

 

[dynamic]

here’s a limited example of the data i have for every one of my vanmoof, creo and aethos rides of the last two years.

It's awesome data you have there. I love it. And, my point, is it should be nearly impossible to *not* have that data from a bike like this.

So, shouldn't your data set be the standardized experience from anyone who hops on the bike regardless of what technology they have in their pocket, on their wrist or in their bag? Isn't that what we *should* be demanding?