Experience Thread: A noobie getting into a specialized vado 5.0 IGH

[mschwett]

It's awesome data you have there. I love it. And, my point, is it should be nearly impossible to *not* have that data from a bike like this.

So, shouldn't your data set be the standardized experience from anyone who hops on the bike regardless of what technology they have in their pocket, on their wrist or in their bag? Isn't that what we *should* be demanding?

most people don’t care that much about it - but other than a few minor tweaks and hacks i did over time (like writing a script to scale power values in a GPX file to get better parity between bikes!) everyone can have that data on a specialized e-bike just by throwing on a heart rate monitor and turning on mission control on their phone. that’s my point. it’s not perfect, but it works very well, in several different ways!

 

[dynamic]

Back to topic. I did decide to do a ride into town and back. RWGPS actually didn't record the whole thing. Not sure what happened there. But it was raining. Moderate rain. And, my hoodie, is not enough. Honestly, neither are the kuhl pants. I just road down, sat and had a coffee while the rain started, and came back up under full power. Just 3.5ish miles.

Outside of actually needing a rain coat (and probably pants), the only other thing that bugged me was getting hit in the face with rain. I am not really sure what to do about that since it's way too warm for a head cover. Maybe just some glasses will be enough. I will probably still make an effort to avoid rain rides. And a lot of the routes I have done recently are dirt roads that may very well be pretty bad in the rain.

I was going to skip a day because walking stairs hurt this morning. I just couldn't not get on the bike.

 

[GuruUno]

Back to topic. I did decide to do a ride into town and back. RWGPS actually didn't record the whole thing. Not sure what happened there. But it was raining. Moderate rain. And, my hoodie, is not enough. Honestly, neither are the kuhl pants. I just road down, sat and had a coffee while the rain started, and came back up under full power. Just 3.5ish miles.

Outside of actually needing a rain coat (and probably pants), the only other thing that bugged me was getting hit in the face with rain. I am not really sure what to do about that since it's way too warm for a head cover. Maybe just some glasses will be enough. I will probably still make an effort to avoid rain rides. And a lot of the routes I have done recently are dirt roads that may very well be pretty bad in the rain.

I was going to skip a day because walking stairs hurt this morning. I just couldn't not get on the bike.

Ride With GPS has always been a little sketchy losing the GPS signals

 

[dynamic]

Ride With GPS has always been a little sketchy losing the GPS signals

This is the first unexplained hiccup I have experienced. And I am not sure I didn’t accidentally pause the ride. I actually forgot to turn it off and it tracked me into the coffee shop and out while I drank my coffee. It then mysteriously stopped right when I left. I am thinking I may have paused or ended the ride when I pulled it up to leave. It was raining, I was fixing my hoodie and my watch can control the ride too. So there are a lot of ways pause could have been hit accidentally. Thankfully, it’s a nothing ride that I considered not tracking. I only started tracking because I had no route planned, and every other time I have done that I took a random unplanned long loop.

 

[mschwett]

IMO RwGPS has by far the best web based routing tools (for north america at least!) but is a very poor “cycling computer” compared to cadence or cyclemeter.

i think cadence is the only one that i’ve never had a single glitch with that wasn’t explained by user error, e.g. a tunnel triggering auto-stop. (which is a horrible feature lol)

 

[dynamic]

very poor “cycling computer” compared to cadence or cyclemeter.

I haven't begun comparing what they show on ride. What isn't good about RWGPS?

 

[mschwett]

I haven't begun comparing what they show on ride. What isn't good about RWGPS?

it's really just a poor interface for a cycling dashboard.

cadence allows you to configure the screen from 1 to 16 tiles, columns and rows, and in each tile you can have any of hundreds of metrics, for example you could configure a column with current power, 5 second average power, 30 second average power, 5 minute average power, etc. the type gets bigger as the tiles get bigger, so you could have a big speedometer and current power at the top, and an array of smaller metrics for heart rate, average heart rate, average speed, elapsed time, lap time, lap power, etc etc. the control buttons to start, stop, pause, and lap the ride are large. you can have as many screens of dashboards as you like, and you can dedicate a number of tiles to a map - and you can choose the map provider. on iOS, selecting apple maps greatly reduces battery drain. there are white and black options. on an oLED screen, black uses much, much less power - no power is used for the black pixels, since it's not a backlight.

the incredible customizability of this illustrates the HUGE advantage of an iOS or android approach vs a cycling computer, IMO. it's trivially easy for the developer to add options, the screens and sensors just get better and better and better over time, upgrades are pushed out over the air through the app store on a weekly basis, and you can get the exact same experience on screens of various sizes with different phones.

RWGPS, by comparison, has almost no options other than choosing from some metrics for each of 8 preset tiles. all the same size. you can't customize anything beyond that, and you either get a big map with tiny metrics, or all metrics, but the fonts are barely larger. i don't think there's a lap function, which is a key training element. no dark mode. very primitive by comparison.

cyclemeter is somewhere in between. all support varia radar overlays, which is a must.

 

[dynamic]

it's really just a poor interface for a cycling dashboard.

I get it. I just want all that post ride. On ride, what the bike has is enough for me. Doesn’t matter though, it’s not possible to get any of that data to the phone... Is cadence doing the estimate route? Or did it work with npe cable?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

This is what I get from my Specialized e-bike connected to Wahoo ELEMNT Bolt v2 in RWGPS. If I connected my Polar OH-1, HR data would be there, too.

 

[dynamic]

View attachment 135844
This is what I get from my Specialized e-bike connected to Wahoo ELEMNT Bolt v2 in RWGPS. If I connected my Polar OH-1, HR data would be there, too.

That won’t be there in @mschwett case because he doesn’t use a bike computer. So, he either uses npe cable/viiiiva or he doesn’t get that information on ride in rwgps or cadence or Cyclemeter or any other app besides specialized.

Besides, just the max/mins isn’t what I want. I would love all of them graphed with selectable sections. Since I can’t get that data to rwgps, I have no idea if it creates graphs like its other metrics. Strava does for at least cadence and power but it’s really bad in usability particularly mobile.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That won’t be there in @mschwett case because he doesn’t use a bike computer. So, he either uses npe cable/viiiiva or he doesn’t get that information on ride in rwgps or cadence or Cyclemeter or any other app besides specialized.

Besides, just the max/mins isn’t what I want. I would love all of them graphed with selectable sections. Since I can’t get that data to rwgps, I have no idea if it creates graphs like its other metrics. Strava does for at least cadence and power but it’s really bad in usability particularly mobile.

Of course, you can get graphs in Strava. Not the motor power though.

I'm glad I own two pre-MasterMind e-bikes... Before Specialized encrypted the Bluetooth channel, you could use the breath-taking app called BLEvo from Paolo Diozzi (Paolo gave me a free license in the BLOKS times to check if BLEvo worked with BLOKS; it didn't). When I got the TCD-w, I started using BLEvo, and still use it, for example to check the real battery health/capacity, motor and battery temperature, and virtually anything that could be extracted -- in real time! -- from the Specialized systems. You Derrek have the data page for Range, Biker/Motor Power Ratio (I think), the battery consumption per km/mi, and Range Trend on your Mastermind display. As I do not have any of that on TCD-w Gen 1, I use BLEvo's dashboard to realistically estimate the Range, see the Wh/distance unit, check the motor/battery temps, and like.

The greatest capability of BLEvo is not only extremely detailed statistical information, not only the ride map where you can even check when and where you stopped and for how long but also the Excel file of 51 (potential) ride parameters in function of time. Not all of 51 parameters are always available (no HR monitor? No HR data!) but what you can learn from the table and graphs you create is almost unbelievable! And you could export your ride to Strava together with a concise or full ride analysis written to the Description field.

(Concise) ride data from BLEvo to Strava. Notice my low leg input for the big Vado. I tend to input 50% into my rides with Vado SL.

By encrypting the Bluetooth channel, Specialized effectively killed BLEvo for new Turbo e-bikes.

However, I have already explored the capabilities of my Vado and Vado SL using BLEvo. Once I got the Wahoo, the BLEvo capabilities became less important to me. I still use BLEvo (with the smartphone in my pocket) to determine average energy consumption per km for different assistance levels, or to check the remaining Range. Yet, it is the Wahoo as my "data center" nowadays. And I would be using the latter capability had I owned a MasterMind e-bike.

P.S. @GuruUno: Please be a good boy and get yourself either a Wahoo ELEMNT Bolt v2 (presently, the name does not contain the "v2' as all new Bolt are v2) or a Garmin Edge. You won't lose any ride data anymore! I'm very happy with the Bolt and sold the Roam to a friend riding traditional recumbent bikes. She is a long tour rider and needed something reliably documenting her tours. (Strava sucked on her phone, and she had to use a power-bank to keep her phone alive for 12 hours or more).

 

[dynamic]

Of course, you can get graphs in Strava. Not the motor power though.

I'm glad I own two pre-MasterMind e-bikes... Before Specialized encrypted the Bluetooth channel, you could use the breath-taking app called BLEvo from Paolo Diozzi (Paolo gave me a free license in the BLOKS times to check if BLEvo worked with BLOKS; it didn't). When I got the TCD-w, I started using BLEvo, and still use it, for example to check the real battery health/capacity, motor and battery temperature, and virtually anything that could be extracted -- in real time! -- from the Specialized systems. You Derrek have the data page for Range, Biker/Motor Power Ratio (I think), the battery consumption per km/mi, and Range Trend on your Mastermind display. As I do not have any of that on TCD-w Gen 1, I use BLEvo's dashboard to realistically estimate the Range, see the Wh/distance unit, check the motor/battery temps, and like.

The greatest capability of BLEvo is not only extremely detailed statistical information, not only the ride map where you can even check when and where you stopped and for how long but also the Excel file of 51 (potential) ride parameters in function of time. No all of 51 parameters are always available (no HR monitor? No HR data!) but what you can learn from the table and graphs you create is almost unbelievable! And you could export your ride to Strava together with a concise or full ride analysis written to the Description field.

View attachment 135845
(Concise) ride data from BLEvo to Strava. Notice my low leg input for the big Vado. I tend to input 50% into my rides with Vado SL.

By encrypting the Bluetooth channel, Specialized effectively killed BLEvo for new Turbo e-bikes.

However, I have already explored the capabilities of my Vado and Vado SL using BLEvo. Once I got the Wahoo, the BLEvo capabilities become not that important to me. I still use BLEvo (with the smartphone in my pocket) to determine average energy consumption per km for different assistance levels, or to check the remaining Range. Yet, it is the Wahoo as my "data center" nowadays. And I would be using the latter capability had I owned a MasterMind e-bike.

It’s too bad specialized continues to block so many customers from obtaining this data. It would be pretty spectacular if they made this data easier to obtain.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It’s too bad specialized continues to block so many customers from obtaining this data. It would be pretty spectacular if they made this data easier to obtain.

As I said before, there had to be very important reasons for Specialized to encrypt the Bluetooth data. Big brands are certainly facing pressure from the European Union related to possibly the best speed restriction; the speed restriction could probably be hampered with using Bluetooth. While Bosch is desperately fighting to detect speed restriction hampering, and tries punishing the rider by even bricking the system, Specialized just made the Bluetooth channel inaccessible to the users.

There are many things we are not aware of and we will not be told! I have always assumed the decision of competent companies such as Specialized were not caused by bad will but had to be deeply justified. I only regret Specialized didn't hire Paolo Diozzi; he could certainly help making Mission Control a technological miracle!

 

[dynamic]

As I said before, there had to be very important reasons for Specialized to encrypt the Bluetooth data. Big brands are certainly facing pressure from the European Union related to possibly the best speed restriction; the speed restriction could probably be hampered with using Bluetooth. While Bosch is desperately fighting to detect speed restriction hampering, and tries punishing the rider by even bricking the system, Specialized just made the Bluetooth channel inaccessible to the users.

There are many things we are not aware of and we will not be told! I have always assumed the decision of competent companies such as Specialized were not caused by bad will but had to be deeply justified. I only regret Specialized didn't hire Paolo Diozzi; he could certainly help making Mission Control a technological miracle!

You keep defending specialized as competent when we know they had other technical solutions available to them. Without the details of the situation, you are assuming they are competent. I am assuming they are not technically competent because their ios app isn’t competent (among other things). I am assuming that spreads to other technology they work on.

Regargless, shutting down user access to data without offering a replacement *better* have a good reason. Right now, they haven’t explained any of these decisions.

If anything, it seems to me that they aren’t good at the technology side of this. They keep walking into these blunders and falling on their face.

I would guess they simply don’t have the in-house technical knowledge to keep them out of dumpster fires. They may know bikes, but their track record on technology is not encouraging. And I would bet all these situations became so much technical debt that they spend their resources dealing with it. This is pretty common in industries where technology is not the main focus. They do enough to “get by” and in doing so end up causing more problems.

 

[mschwett]

It’s too bad specialized continues to block so many customers from obtaining this data. It would be pretty spectacular if they made this data easier to obtain.

it is very easy to obtain! a $50-$200 cycling computer will show it in real-time and provide complete data files, as does mission control on iOS or android. you just happen to not like either of those choices, lol.

the armchair quarterbacking is hilarious, if you want to prove that you're not just completely uneducated on the subject of running a company which builds electric-assist vehicles, please provide a couple examples of e-bikes which provide open data output of motor and rider power, cadence, and speed via bluetooth. i mentioned this a while back, but you didn't reply, presumably because there aren't any. afaik bosch requires the use of their "ebike flow" app, for example. vanmoof is the same, having recently locked down many features of the only third party app to decode their bluetooth protocol.

i'd love to be proven wrong here, but until then, the person who is wrong isn't me!

 

[dynamic]

as does mission control on iOS or android. you just happen to not like either of those choices, lol.

Both of those choices are deficient. Let's play this game. I get an ant+ HR strap and use mission control. Here is what I lose:

no heart rate data in apple health *while using an iOS device to track the rides*
I get zero control or display on my apple watch *while using an iOS device to track the rides*
I have to run a second app for navigation
I am limited to strava and komoot
And I still have to put on said additional HR monitor.

Now, let's look at the bike computer:

I still don't get data into apple health, but at least it being not an apple device is a reasonable excuse.
I *do* get navigation depending on the bike computer.
I still have to put on an additional hr monitor
and I still don't have any apple watch display, control or info, again, not being an apple device is a reasonable excuse.
But I can get the data posted to many services! There are upsides.
Oh, and I paid $300-$600 for a bike computer for the privilege of doing the above.

All of the above applies to android/android wear as well.

Again, you guys keep pretending this isn't a walled garden. The above proves that it is. I don't understand how you can't see that. Just in case you don't understand what "walled garden" means (put "define walled garden" into google: "a restricted range of information to which subscribers to a particular service are limited."

Just because *I* am not willing to pay a premium for that situation, and *I* am vocal about it, does not make me *wrong*. see how that works?

i'd love to be proven wrong here, but until then, the person who is wrong isn't me!

See above. I work with large scale enterprise clients solving these kinds of problems. Specialized has all the signs of a company that rushes into the solving the first problem and not thinking about the ramifications of that down the road. I saw it with their direct to consumer sales, it's pretty clear in their app designs (or they just don't care), blevo is a further indication of it ( If securing the bike was the issue, why did their engineers not know that bluetooth communication could be tamepred with? OR did the law come out *after* the bike? Because that *is* a reasonable reason.)

You guys keep worshipping this company. You are blind to its flaws. And they aren't going to get fixed while that is the case.

I would argue that the best supporters of companies recognize the flaws, acknowledge them, help push the company to fix them while still being advocates. There are aspects of apple I absolutely despise. They are responsible (through bugs) of losing some to significant data on several occasions. I am very vocal about them when they screw up as well. But they are still the best option for getting through my day. (and I say that as someone that has actually switched to android and back). That doesn't mean they can't be improved. It also doesn't mean they are the best option for everyone. There are times where I *would* select android. I am not so devoted to one ecosystem that I can't recognize it's flaws. Specialized has flaws, and they are pretty alarming at times.

Continuing to repeat "no one else is doing it" is a tired cliche. Stop. The only value to that is convincing yourself that you have the best option on the market. It has no other value. If the actual engineers that create progress in the world thought that way, we would never have gotten the iPhone. Or any other technical innovations that improve experiences. It seems you still need phone metaphors. Blackberry works fine, right? So there it is.

Defending this company on these issues is just silly. The issues exist. You choose not to acknowledge them because they don't bother you.

 

[dynamic]

And, to add insult to injury, specialized mission control & ride is spinning just like @GuruUno said. So, now, I have zero ways to get data off the bike.

Brilliant.

Anyway, specialized has flaws. Whether it is this way by choice, shortsightedness, incompetency or simple lack of funds to do this job well, we don't know. If it turns out to be choice, I will abandon specialized like a hot potato. The other three I have a lot of tolerance as those are the things I fix in my day job. And they can take time.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Go and buy another e-bike. Maybe you'll find the unicorn.

 

[BEC111]

Giant (same as Specialized) is a bicycle company and is not interested in Apple deficiencies. Any ANT+ compatible HR monitor connects to a Specialized e-bike. All of them outside Apple have ANT+.

As Stephan knows I‘ve been facing the same issues for quite a while. I’ve resolved it to some extent by recognizing my actual needs. I’ve ended up using the Specialized TCD on my 2020 Vado SL 4 for monitoring during rides.

I either run the Strava or Ride with GPA apps on my Apple Watch to track my cardio and capture cadence, speed and the other data. I usually only ride a Rail to Trail path but If I’m following a route from GPS I may put my phone on the handlebars. Otherwise it stays safely in a pocket.

 

[dynamic]

and capture cadence

How are you getting cadence?