TForan52
Active Member
- Region
- USA
I don’t even have a car presently. My bike and a basket has been all I need for the summer. Of course, you can’t buy a car,even if you want to. 5k markup on a Civic !
Electric Car thread
- Thread starter WattsUpDude
- Start date
TForan52
Active Member
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- USA
Bye now, Patty ! Now be sure to keep your word.Well, that's enough for me here - the last few pages of this thread are more than half taken up with responses to the ignored one - I'm out.
chunk
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
What was the gist of the story? Pay wall stopped me from reading anything. Who pays to read news on the Internet anyway?
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
My NYT and WP are read online. Far less expensive than paper delivery. That’s who…
chunk
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
I guess that was my point, who pays to read news. If you want to read about a current event or a news story, a quick search will yield lots of results, without cost. That's just how I roll.
Mulezen
Well-Known Member
1st half
With the nation’s most significant climate bill likely to become law in days, many Americans might be wondering how it could affect them. The sweeping legislation contains a slew of incentives aimed at helping individuals who want to make more climate-friendly choices — chief among them, new tax credits for electric vehicles.
10 steps you can take to lower your carbon footprint
The bill, dubbed the Inflation Reduction Act, made it through the Senateover the weekend. The House is expected to approve it Friday, sending it to President Biden to sign into law.
While the tax credits have been widely heralded as a way to make new and used electric vehicles, or EVs, more affordable, many of the stipulations determining eligibility — manufacturing requirements that a number of current models likely won’t be able to meet in the short term — have sparked confusion among people scrambling to figure outhow their plans to purchase these cars could be affected.
After passage of climate bill, long road awaits
The public confusion around the electric vehicle incentives isn’t all that surprising, said Chris Harto, a Consumer Reports senior policy analyst for transportation and energy.
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“Unfortunately, in the short term, this change to the tax credits makes an already challenging EV market even more challenging,” Harto said. “But ultimately, in the long run, it’s going to be great for consumers and great for especially middle-income mainstream consumers getting into more affordable EVs down the road.”
Here’s what Harto and other experts say you need to know about the electric vehicle tax credits and how to potentially take advantage of them.
How the climate bill could save you money and change what you buy
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But eligibility to receive the credits depends on income as well as how much the new or used vehicle costs. Additionally, new electric vehicles could become ineligible if they don’t meet certain manufacturing requirements, such as being assembled in North America or using critical minerals and components that are sourced domestically or from the country’s free-trade-agreement partners. Some automakers have warned that these targets could be impossible to hit, which in turn might make it more challenging for consumers to find qualifying EVs.
Carmakers say the climate bill sets impossible targets
Meanwhile, the existing EV consumer tax credit is expected to no longer be available after Biden signs the bill into law, according to a spokesperson for the Zero Emission Transportation Association. But people should still be able to claim the credit if they purchase an EV before the signing — provided that the vehicle is eligible under the current requirements. That means an electric car from a manufacturer that has reached the 200,000 vehicle cap, such as Tesla or General Motors, wouldn’t be eligible.
In a statement, Rivian, an electric vehicle automaker that has not reached the sales limit, said it is “working to help interested preorder holders and customers obtain a written, binding contract to purchase and secure EV tax credit eligibility before new restrictions take effect. We’ll be sharing more information and next steps with customers directly.”
Sign up for the latest news about climate change, energy and the environment, delivered every Thursday
With the nation’s most significant climate bill likely to become law in days, many Americans might be wondering how it could affect them. The sweeping legislation contains a slew of incentives aimed at helping individuals who want to make more climate-friendly choices — chief among them, new tax credits for electric vehicles.
10 steps you can take to lower your carbon footprint
The bill, dubbed the Inflation Reduction Act, made it through the Senateover the weekend. The House is expected to approve it Friday, sending it to President Biden to sign into law.
While the tax credits have been widely heralded as a way to make new and used electric vehicles, or EVs, more affordable, many of the stipulations determining eligibility — manufacturing requirements that a number of current models likely won’t be able to meet in the short term — have sparked confusion among people scrambling to figure outhow their plans to purchase these cars could be affected.
After passage of climate bill, long road awaits
The public confusion around the electric vehicle incentives isn’t all that surprising, said Chris Harto, a Consumer Reports senior policy analyst for transportation and energy.
Advertisement
“Unfortunately, in the short term, this change to the tax credits makes an already challenging EV market even more challenging,” Harto said. “But ultimately, in the long run, it’s going to be great for consumers and great for especially middle-income mainstream consumers getting into more affordable EVs down the road.”
Here’s what Harto and other experts say you need to know about the electric vehicle tax credits and how to potentially take advantage of them.
How the climate bill could save you money and change what you buy
WHAT TO KNOW
- 1. When do the new EV tax credits go into effect, and what’s changing?
- 2. Should I buy an EV now or wait?
- 3. How could the availability of eligible EVs be affected?
- 4. Which EVs could be eligible?
1. When do the new EV tax credits go into effect, and what’s changing?
As it stands, many of the bill’s electric vehicle provisions are expected to go into effect for cars put into service after Dec. 31, 2022, and will stay in place through 2032, according to Consumer Reports. For new electric vehicles, a $7,500 tax credit could be applied at the point of sale. Those who purchase used EVs could be eligible for up to a $4,000 credit. The legislation would also do away with a previous limit that kept EV manufacturers from being able to offer tax credits once they sold 200,000 vehicles.Advertisement
But eligibility to receive the credits depends on income as well as how much the new or used vehicle costs. Additionally, new electric vehicles could become ineligible if they don’t meet certain manufacturing requirements, such as being assembled in North America or using critical minerals and components that are sourced domestically or from the country’s free-trade-agreement partners. Some automakers have warned that these targets could be impossible to hit, which in turn might make it more challenging for consumers to find qualifying EVs.
Carmakers say the climate bill sets impossible targets
Meanwhile, the existing EV consumer tax credit is expected to no longer be available after Biden signs the bill into law, according to a spokesperson for the Zero Emission Transportation Association. But people should still be able to claim the credit if they purchase an EV before the signing — provided that the vehicle is eligible under the current requirements. That means an electric car from a manufacturer that has reached the 200,000 vehicle cap, such as Tesla or General Motors, wouldn’t be eligible.
In a statement, Rivian, an electric vehicle automaker that has not reached the sales limit, said it is “working to help interested preorder holders and customers obtain a written, binding contract to purchase and secure EV tax credit eligibility before new restrictions take effect. We’ll be sharing more information and next steps with customers directly.”
Sign up for the latest news about climate change, energy and the environment, delivered every Thursday
Mulezen
Well-Known Member
2. Should I buy an EV now or wait?
If you’ve already been in the market for an EV and have found one available to buy, “definitely go ahead and finish the transaction and get it done,” Harto said. But, he noted, it’s probably “going to be challenging for somebody who wasn’t in the market for a new car and saw that this change is coming and is trying to jump into the market and take advantage of the situation quickly.”Advertisement
For one thing, there are a large number of people who want EVs and a limited supply — a situation that, Harto said, “has created long wait times and just frankly, absurd dealer markups on EVs.” And he anticipates things might only become worse in the immediate future as consumers scramble for cars. There also currently isn’t a tax credit available for used EVs.
“We’re in a turbulent time of rapid change in the market,” he said. “There’s going to be more vehicles, there’s going to be cheaper vehicles in the future. Eventually, a lot of vehicles are going to qualify for the credit again, so there’s not a whole lot of risk in waiting to buy an EV.”
Thinking of buying an electric vehicle? Read this first.
People trying to buy cars now should be mindful of potential dealer markups, Harto said. “It’s not going to do you a whole lot of good to get a $7,500 tax credit if the dealer is going to charge you [$10,000] or $20,000 over MSRP for the vehicle.”
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If you’re worried that the EV you want might not be eligible in the future, remember that the new credits are expected to remain until 2032. Even if automakers don’t have vehicles that qualify until 2025 or 2026, the bill “still gives them many, many years of eligibility for the credits,” Harto said.
“The common sense thing would be to say: ‘Look, don’t worry. These rebates aren’t going anywhere. They’re fully funded to be around for a while. Do them when they make sense,’” said Jonathan Foley, executive director of Project Drawdown, a climate nonprofit.
An electric car charging station is positioned outside the Science Museum of Virginia in Richmond. (Steve Helber/AP)
3. How could the availability of eligible EVs be affected?
In the short term, changes to the EV tax credit are probably “going to eliminate a lot of vehicles from being eligible,” Harto said.For instance, he noted, cars that aren’t assembled in North America are expected to immediately become ineligible. At present, such vehicles could include those from Hyundai, Kia and Toyota, among others, according to Consumer Reports.
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Other models of cars, regardless of where they are assembled, would not qualify because they are too expensive. To be eligible for a credit, new EVs that are vans, SUVs or pickup trucks can’t exceed $80,000, while other types of vehicles can’t cost more than $55,000. Used EVs could be eligible if they cost no more than $25,000. A list of cars compiled by Consumer Reports that probably won’t qualify because of their price tags include some Teslas, several BMWs and other models depending on the vehicles’ modifications.
In the long term, however, the new EV incentives are “likely to be a massive improvement over the existing tax credit system,” Harto said. “It will really help middle-class Americans afford EVs. They just may have to wait for a couple more years” for automakers to adapt to the new requirements and vehicle supply to increase.
And although the new manufacturing requirements could be “a high bar to clear,” the existing vehicle cap was probably already making it difficult for many people to buy popular EVs that would be eligible for the tax credit, said Leah Stokes, an associate professor of environmental politics at the University of California at Santa Barbara. “A current EV tax credit basically doesn’t exist for most EVs that Americans buy,” Stokes said, noting that several manufacturers of popular vehicles have reached the sales limit.
Here’s how the electric vehicle revolution is going
What’s more, one aspect of the EV market is likely to remain unchanged, regardless of the tax law that is in place, Foley said: Every year, “some cars will be eligible, some won’t.”
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“Right now, it’s because of the cap on individual companies,” he said. “In the future, it might be who’s got the batteries that are meeting the standard.”
4. Which EVs could be eligible?
Trying to figure out which vehicles would qualify for tax credits under the bill could be tricky, as eligibility is expected to change depending on whether automakers are able to meet the manufacturing requirements.Based on cost alone, eligible vehicles could include several Chevrolet models, Teslas, Fords and the Nissan Leaf, among others, according to Consumer Reports. But keep in mind that certain modifications and special features could push a vehicle over the price cap.
Many used EVs that are below the stated price cap would also be eligible and aren’t subject to the same manufacturing requirements as new models.
chunk
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
This is really a bone head move if the goal of the bill is to increase EVs on US roads. It shouldn't matter where a car is manufactured or assembled in a global economy. Probably inserted by some lobbyist lawyers for some special interests. It's good that it has a reasonable (10 year) life span for the credits and they are able to be used at the point of sale. Overall pretty good I guess, but as most SB's it seems to inject unnecessary bureaucracy and complexity. The other provisions to do with climate change and drug pricing negotiations are a welcome part of this too. Good read thanks for posting.
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tomjasz
Well-Known Member
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- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Education by meme. No vetting the source just read quick bits without any attribution. Or go to a book store and buy a Cliff Notes instead of a required reading. Network news is so skewed, on both sides that I find it terrifying .
From here I see it as the dumbing down of critical thinking. I hated parochial school but I did learn to read more than Cliff Notes. It’s no wonder conspiracy theories and outright lies find believers. “I read it on the internet..”
From here I see it as the dumbing down of critical thinking. I hated parochial school but I did learn to read more than Cliff Notes. It’s no wonder conspiracy theories and outright lies find believers. “I read it on the internet..”
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scrambler
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Bay Area, CA
Critical thinking died in this country a while ago. It was even officially removed from the curriculum in some states by some politicians ...
We are now paying the price, and that price is quickly becoming unsustainable.
Readytoride
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Virginia
Getting away from the sniping being demonstrated here, and back on topic....
....last night Rivian sent emails out to their reservation preholders regarding the new US tax incentive for electric vehicles. In essence: because the tax credit that people had assumed would still be in place when they reserved their Rivian trucks and SUVs now has new restrictions that may negate any purchases that don't meet the new guidelines, the quickest solution was to ask all the preorders if they were willing to sign a binding reservation agreement - to the tune of merely $100 nonrefundable out of their refundable $1,000 reservation - for their vehicles. Doing so legally kept the old tax credit in place - the one where the only restriction was a cap once 200,000 vehicles had been sold by the manufacturer, and nothing regarding the price of the vehicle (my concern because my new Rivian was over the price cap set in the new bill)
It was a no brainer. $100 to ensure the $7,500 tax credit as previously defined was still valid with none of the added restrictions imposed by the new bill? I couldn't sign it fast enough. Received back an instant confirmation from Rivian, printed out the contract for our taxes, and we're good to go.
I will be honest - the tax credit is a super nice perk, but not the be-all-end-all for me. Nor is it (I presume) tipping the scales for most of the preorders who have the means and desires to want electric trucks or SUVs with or without the credit. Notice I said most, not "all". The "binding contract" levels the playing field again for anyone on the reservation list already (thank you, Rivian, and all the other manufacturers choosing this route for your faithful preorders), and removes the price disincentive imposed by the new (as soon as it's signed) legislation.
It is good that the tax credit has been extended, despite its new restrictions, because most people coming new into the EV world look to the credit as a help if their income level can use it. Otherwise, I found (when I purchased my EV 4 years ago) the instant $1,000 cash incentives offered by various state and local green groups and entities to be better incentives towards the EV purchase because it instantly reduced the price of the vehicle at the point of sale and (by default) the purchase price tax. I had $2,500 worth of instant incentives for my purchase. A real advantage worth more to me than a one-year $7,500 tax credit that may not be utilized in full based on my current year's tax liability.
Do I think the new tax credit restrictions for EVs in this new bill will help climate control via the sale of EVs? Hard to say. Maybe for the used car buyer with this new $4k credit being thrown into the used car game, but that segment is 100% based upon whether current EV owners are willing to give up their current EVs to buy new ones. The EV market is still far too young to have any measurable used battery electric vehicles for sale that aren't range limited. Most vehicles being sold used are still ICE which are giving up their space in garages to new EVs. I plan to keep my EV for at least 5 more years, and then strip the battery to use as a whole house battery with my solar array. So the chances my 2018 will ever be in the used EV car market are slim to null.
I think the next 5 years is going to be interesting, both on the manufacturing and buyers sides of EV adoption.
....last night Rivian sent emails out to their reservation preholders regarding the new US tax incentive for electric vehicles. In essence: because the tax credit that people had assumed would still be in place when they reserved their Rivian trucks and SUVs now has new restrictions that may negate any purchases that don't meet the new guidelines, the quickest solution was to ask all the preorders if they were willing to sign a binding reservation agreement - to the tune of merely $100 nonrefundable out of their refundable $1,000 reservation - for their vehicles. Doing so legally kept the old tax credit in place - the one where the only restriction was a cap once 200,000 vehicles had been sold by the manufacturer, and nothing regarding the price of the vehicle (my concern because my new Rivian was over the price cap set in the new bill)
It was a no brainer. $100 to ensure the $7,500 tax credit as previously defined was still valid with none of the added restrictions imposed by the new bill? I couldn't sign it fast enough. Received back an instant confirmation from Rivian, printed out the contract for our taxes, and we're good to go.
I will be honest - the tax credit is a super nice perk, but not the be-all-end-all for me. Nor is it (I presume) tipping the scales for most of the preorders who have the means and desires to want electric trucks or SUVs with or without the credit. Notice I said most, not "all". The "binding contract" levels the playing field again for anyone on the reservation list already (thank you, Rivian, and all the other manufacturers choosing this route for your faithful preorders), and removes the price disincentive imposed by the new (as soon as it's signed) legislation.
It is good that the tax credit has been extended, despite its new restrictions, because most people coming new into the EV world look to the credit as a help if their income level can use it. Otherwise, I found (when I purchased my EV 4 years ago) the instant $1,000 cash incentives offered by various state and local green groups and entities to be better incentives towards the EV purchase because it instantly reduced the price of the vehicle at the point of sale and (by default) the purchase price tax. I had $2,500 worth of instant incentives for my purchase. A real advantage worth more to me than a one-year $7,500 tax credit that may not be utilized in full based on my current year's tax liability.
Do I think the new tax credit restrictions for EVs in this new bill will help climate control via the sale of EVs? Hard to say. Maybe for the used car buyer with this new $4k credit being thrown into the used car game, but that segment is 100% based upon whether current EV owners are willing to give up their current EVs to buy new ones. The EV market is still far too young to have any measurable used battery electric vehicles for sale that aren't range limited. Most vehicles being sold used are still ICE which are giving up their space in garages to new EVs. I plan to keep my EV for at least 5 more years, and then strip the battery to use as a whole house battery with my solar array. So the chances my 2018 will ever be in the used EV car market are slim to null.
I think the next 5 years is going to be interesting, both on the manufacturing and buyers sides of EV adoption.
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You can figure that out yourself at https://www.fncalculator.com/ (great resource!)
WattsUpDude
Well-Known Member
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- USA
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- San Francisco, Bay Area
That seems really high, even for the Bolt EUV Premier with every option. But then again, I don't know what your sales tax is. Sounds like they're definitely charging a "market adjustment".
A top trim Bolt EUV is less than $38,000 with all options minus dealer fees and taxes.
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TForan52
Active Member
- Region
- USA
It was a Premier with the launch package . 47k with taxes and dealer fees.
WattsUpDude
Well-Known Member
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- USA
- City
- San Francisco, Bay Area
The Launch Edition does indeed have every option. $47k out the door still seems really high but a lot of that depends on sales tax and financing rate at that point. If they're not charging a "market adjustment", then they're really screwing you on the financing. Did they give you a itemized breakdown of the costs?
TForan52
Active Member
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- USA
That‘s MSRP plus tax and dealer fees. No discount beyond the 6300 . So, financing would be based on 41k minus down payment.
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