Electric Car thread

[BigNerd]

In perfect EV utopia (or autopia)... everyone will have solar and batteries (or EVs will act as batteries using V2G).

Neighborhoods will become self sufficient and there will not be any loss of electricity even if the grid goes down (at least in the sunny areas of the world).

By then... nuclear fusion will be perfected and we will all have cars that run on trash (time machines are too far fetched ).

 

[Readytoride]

From electricdrive.com posted Dec 2, 2022

In the last few days, reports in various media outlets have circulated which, at least in their headlines, somewhat luridly suggested that Switzerland was planning driving bans for electric cars. It turns out the truth behind the “news” is not quite that wild.

The basis for the reports is the ‘Ordinance on Restrictions and Prohibitions on the Use of Electric Energy’. So far, this is only a draft the Swiss Federal Council is currently writing to prepare for the possibility of an electricity shortage, as are other countries – as an emergency response.

The draft ordinance regulates “restrictions and prohibitions on the use of electrical energy in order to secure the country’s electricity supply”. It outlines four possible escalation levels within which the use of bans would at best be staggered in the event of a crisis. E-mobility is only mentioned in escalation level 3 as one of many possible measures. There it says: “The private use of electric cars is only permitted for absolutely necessary journeys (e.g. exercising one’s profession, shopping, visiting the doctor, attending religious events, attending court appointments).”

So: Should there really be a power shortage in Switzerland, according to the draft, partial driving bans for electric cars could be considered as one of numerous upstream measures.

"Could" is the operative word. It's a hand wiggle gesture to invoke the "maybe, maybe not" scenario meant to cover all the bases in fleshing out what can be mitigated in government disaster planning. In this draft the only scenario where an EV driving would be banned is for "larking" Ie - driving around just for the hell of it with no purpose except for fun. And in a disaster are the police going to have the time or manpower to chase down those joyriding electric cars or set up roadblocks to ensure frivolous EV drivers stay off the road? Think about it. Throw into the mix what if your car is run off solar? That presents a whole different set of options.

Doubt this "idea" would ever become a reality.

The draft is just tossing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. An "unnecessary use of an EV" ban won't. It will actually cause more mayhem in more ways than one.

 

[scrambler]

From electricdrive.com posted Dec 2, 2022

In the last few days, reports in various media outlets have circulated which, at least in their headlines, somewhat luridly suggested that Switzerland was planning driving bans for electric cars. It turns out the truth behind the “news” is not quite that wild.

The basis for the reports is the ‘Ordinance on Restrictions and Prohibitions on the Use of Electric Energy’. So far, this is only a draft the Swiss Federal Council is currently writing to prepare for the possibility of an electricity shortage, as are other countries – as an emergency response.

The draft ordinance regulates “restrictions and prohibitions on the use of electrical energy in order to secure the country’s electricity supply”. It outlines four possible escalation levels within which the use of bans would at best be staggered in the event of a crisis. E-mobility is only mentioned in escalation level 3 as one of many possible measures. There it says: “The private use of electric cars is only permitted for absolutely necessary journeys (e.g. exercising one’s profession, shopping, visiting the doctor, attending religious events, attending court appointments).”

So: Should there really be a power shortage in Switzerland, according to the draft, partial driving bans for electric cars could be considered as one of numerous upstream measures.

"Could" is the operative word. It's a hand wiggle gesture to invoke the "maybe, maybe not" scenario meant to cover all the bases in fleshing out what can be mitigated in government disaster planning. And in a disaster are the police going to have the time or manpower to chase down the electric cars or set up roadblocks to ensure EVs stay off the road? Thunk about it. Doubt it. What if your car is run off solar? That presents a whole different set of options.

The draft is just tossing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. An EV ban won't. It will actually cause more mayhem in more ways than one.

Thank you for that.
Refreshing to see information as opposed to Spinning from the narrow minded individuals only looking to support their personal unfounded Bias

 

[kevinmccune]

Over the last 2 years, our electric rates have more than doubled. Yes, gasoline has also gone up but not as much percentage wise. At this rate, in 10 years, EV's will be more expensive to operate than ICE vehicles.

its axiomatic!

 

[kevinmccune]

In perfect EV utopia (or autopia)... everyone will have solar and batteries (or EVs will act as batteries using V2G).

Neighborhoods will become self sufficient and there will not be any loss of electricity even if the grid goes down (at least in the sunny areas of the world).

By then... nuclear fusion will be perfected and we will all have cars that run on trash (time machines are too far fetched ).

Forget those expensive fusion toys, they will never be marketable, what all that money needs to be spent on is gravity research-[it will follow the night as the day] when you can control gravity flux or whatever you wish to call it, fusion will be relatively simple( Uh Einstein?)
Now there are those that will maintain, the 'gravity puzzle' was solved back in the 50's( Tic Tac anyone?) This incredible tech is so world changing its way above "Black" when we have the "GUT" to explain it perhaps it can be used as common heritage for all Mankind. I know I am treading on thin ice here, perhaps I will be discredited as the 'kook" I am, I do not possess any"creds" just simple observation and "what if', feel free to shoot me down"Higher ed Folks" some of the craziest things happened to me when young, perhaps one day all will be revealed, each of us are here for a purpose, Savant or not."
"When you bump fists with the unknown be prepared to be amazed".

 

[Rexlion]

I know you think you are making some sort of argument, but it is a pretty irrelevant one.
There is an electricity shortage so they ask people to preserve electricity, so what?
That applies to any electrical consumption, not just EVs. In Europe they asked people to reduce their heating habits, they asked some businesses to close certain hours etc.... It does not make heating bad, or these company a problem....
If tomorrow there is a shortage of Oil, they will ask you to limit your ICE car usage, that does not make ICE cars a problem ....

Not so irrelevant. Remember the cold snap in TX last winter and the blackouts there? The electric utility couldn't keep up. This recent storm caused similar problems in more than one locale. One I recall specifically was in Tennessee, where residents were angry about losing power while the Titans' stadium stayed fully powered for their game. I don't recall exactly where some of the other electric shortages were, but it was on the nightly news. Besides that, doesn't everyone recall the shortfalls in California during the last couple of years that were in the news? Or are people's memories really that short??

Meanwhile, when was the last time we had a gas shortage? 1974? So, yes, electric shortages are extremely relevant, because they're happening multiple times per year in this country. And my reason for posting the original comment was in response to the claim that full EV usage by everyone would only raise the amount of electricity needed by 20-some percent. Well, whoopee, because the utilities aren't set to handle that much increase in demand! Add another 20% draw to the grid nationwide, and a flea landing on a power line might be enough to shut down the whole country! (Ok, that last bit was hyperbole.)

 

[pmcdonald]

@Rexlion so what's your takeaway?

There's no backing the ox cart up. The shift is underway, and as usual infrastructure is playing catch up. If we waited until everything was in place before making the transition we'd be waiting forever - by virtue of our short election cycles and shareholder returns policy and industry is almost by design reactive.

Ironically I see EVs playing a big part in solving the issues you bring up. Give them a few years and we'll see decentralised 'cloud' microgrids in the form of cars feeding back to the network. They'll charge when generation is high and demand low, and feed when the opposite is true. Trials are already underway.

As I've said here multiple times, the transition won't be seamless. They never are. Having said that, there's the potential for massive, positive disruption to a number of sectors as a result of the shift. I'm not jumping in yet, but I'm enjoying having a front seat to the change.

 

[teskow]

The way the car companies are jumping into the EV market makes me think they are counting on or know of better batteries coming
soon. There has to be something on the horizon for them to be investing so heavily in the EV market.. What we now have in battery performance leaves a lot to be desired. Things like weight to energy, extreme weather performance, fire hazard etc.

 

[Mulezen]

2022 was a big year for EV battery plants in the U.S. How big? $73 billion big

As the auto industry goes electric, there have been so many massive battery projects announced that it can be hard to keep track of them all. So we added them up for you.

www.npr.org

 

[kevinmccune]

The way the car companies are jumping into the EV market makes me think they are counting on or know of better batteries coming
soon. There has to be something on the horizon for them to be investing so heavily in the EV market.. What we now have in battery performance leaves a lot to be desired. Things like weight to energy, extreme weather performance, fire hazard etc.

I can think of a couple of reasons were the weight can be an asset.

 

[Mulezen]

The battery post above, and this intriguing energy wrinkle in the Gulf of Mexico demonstrate that the future is here…and not just its outlines. Better late than never. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-help-the-oil-industry?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[teskow]

I can think of a couple of reasons were the weight can be an asset.

That is true for a tractor or fork lift but not when it comes to the weight and volume of your fuel in an automobile etc.
A gallon of gasoline is 6 pounds and will propel a small Honda motorcycle 125 miles and work when it is 30 degrees below zero.
When a battery that weighs 6 pounds is available that will propel my electric bike 125 miles EV's will then revolutionize the world.

 

[Readytoride]

The way the car companies are jumping into the EV market makes me think they are counting on or know of better batteries coming
soon. There has to be something on the horizon for them to be investing so heavily in the EV market.. What we now have in battery performance leaves a lot to be desired. Things like weight to energy, extreme weather performance, fire hazard etc.

Legacy manufacturers are being forced to change by government mandates. They are literally being dragged kicking and screaming into an EV future where gas cars will be the museum pieces of past technology castigated as the main catalyst of climate change. If legacy car companies had their way they'd continue making ICE cars forever. It's just my opinion but I don't think the manufacturers necessarily care, or anticipate, anything along the lines of new battery technology. They aren't that farsighted, or that invested, and will just use whatever materials are available. There is nothing altruistic or forward thinking about the legacy automotive manufacturers. They have only two choices before the end of this decade: change all their manufacuring to EVs, or die off. Granted, their investors wouldn't be too keen to have their stock go bust, so the only way these companies can keep making money is to change their business model to what the government wants (zero emission cars) and build what the consumer will buy (good looking zero emission cars). The "practical price" will shake out over the next few years as more EVs being offered produces a more competitive market.

It is the startup electric car companies that are vested in discovering new battery technology and are actively working to develop their own resources.

Technology advances will be driven by the mandates and the startups. We might see changes as slow and cumbersome when looking at it from day to day, but looking back only 4 years one can see a huge difference today in availability of charging stations, EV models offered, battery improvement in range, and consumer acceptance. In 4 more years even greater strides will be realized. It just takes time to set a brand new infrastructure in place, and test it until it meets the demands of an ever increasing acceptance.

 

[kevinmccune]

That is true for a tractor or fork lift but not when it comes to the weight and volume of your fuel in an automobile etc.
A gallon of gasoline is 6 pounds and will propel a small Honda motorcycle 125 miles and work when it is 30 degrees below zero.
When a battery that weighs 6 pounds is available that will propel my electric bike 125 miles EV's will then revolutionize the world.

A heavy vehicle is harder for a mob to overturn( especially with spikes or razor blades on the undersides where fingers would grasp), snow! heavy vehicles with the proper tires go better in snow within reason, don't look for a battery that revolutionary, we are getting good range now and the torque of an electric motor makes it well suited to move heavy things( did I mention wind resistance?) do not wait for the miracle battery made of unobtainium, enjoy the benefits now. Have used my battery tools below zero and they seemed to function good enough, a two-cycle drill would be too heavy to manage. Ad Nauseam! Not to mention the low center of gravity, plus you can use the battery as a floor pan( plus you cannot regenerate gasoline in the sunlight)
Peoples ideals may need a reset, I could watch electric cars (brushless) run around an indoor track all day in an unvented enclosure, hard to say the same for ICE powered vehicles.

 

[kevinmccune]

Legacy manufacturers are being forced to change by government mandates. They are literally being dragged kicking and screaming into an EV future where gas cars will be the museum pieces of past technology castigated as the main catalyst of climate change. If legacy car companies had their way they'd continue making ICE cars forever. It's just my opinion but I don't think the manufacturers necessarily care, or anticipate, anything along the lines of new battery technology. They aren't that farsighted, or that invested, and will just use whatever materials are available. There is nothing altruistic or forward thinking about the legacy automotive manufacturers. They have only two choices before the end of this decade: change all their manufacuring to EVs, or die off. Granted, their investors wouldn't be too keen to have their stock go bust, so the only way these companies can keep making money is to change their business model to what the government wants (zero emission cars) and build what the consumer will buy (good looking zero emission cars). The "practical price" will shake out over the next few years as more EVs being offered produces a more competitive market.

It is the startup electric car companies that are vested in discovering new battery technology and are actively working to develop their own resources.

Technology advances will be driven by the mandates and the startups. We might see changes as slow and cumbersome when looking at it from day to day, but looking back only 4 years one can see a huge difference today in availability of charging stations, EV models offered, battery improvement in range, and consumer acceptance. In 4 more years even greater strides will be realized. It just takes time to set a brand new infrastructure in place, and test it until it meets the demands of an ever increasing acceptance.

Some of the manufacturers are getting onboard surprisingly fast.

 

[BigNerd]

And my reason for posting the original comment was in response to the claim that full EV usage by everyone would only raise the amount of electricity needed by 20-some percent. Well, whoopee, because the utilities aren't set to handle that much increase in demand! Add another 20% draw to the grid nationwide, and a flea landing on a power line might be enough to shut down the whole country! (Ok, that last bit was hyperbole.)

This is a concern shared by many but like with any technology, society will adjust. Remember how slow your internet was on your phone back before the iPhone?

EV adoption is also driving solar adoption and in places where sun is plentiful, that's a good thing. Battery tech will evolve and soon (well relatively) the grid will be better off because each home/neighborhood will be its own microgrid.

 

[kevinmccune]

Not so irrelevant. Remember the cold snap in TX last winter and the blackouts there? The electric utility couldn't keep up. This recent storm caused similar problems in more than one locale. One I recall specifically was in Tennessee, where residents were angry about losing power while the Titans' stadium stayed fully powered for their game. I don't recall exactly where some of the other electric shortages were, but it was on the nightly news. Besides that, doesn't everyone recall the shortfalls in California during the last couple of years that were in the news? Or are people's memories really that short??

Meanwhile, when was the last time we had a gas shortage? 1974? So, yes, electric shortages are extremely relevant, because they're happening multiple times per year in this country. And my reason for posting the original comment was in response to the claim that full EV usage by everyone would only raise the amount of electricity needed by 20-some percent. Well, whoopee, because the utilities aren't set to handle that much increase in demand! Add another 20% draw to the grid nationwide, and a flea landing on a power line might be enough to shut down the whole country! (Ok, that last bit was hyperbole.)

Maybe the flea could do it, the great eastern seaboard blackout of 1965 never was adequately explained, the "breaker" that was blamed for the "cascade" of events leading to the blackout was tested and it worked perfectly, about that time strange lights were seen near transmission lines.
One thing VA can be given a little credit, despite the work on the transmission lines we still had power drops during the cold snap. Trying to use the internet then was an exercise in futility.

 

[procreator]

Interesting view on the current state of EV manufacturing/marketing here in the US:

"At least you’ll know there are others wondering why modern EVs are so needlessly big, heavy and dangerously fast."

https://jalopnik.com/the-u-s-is-making-the-same-mistakes-with-evs-that-it-m-1849950812

 

[EMGX]

Interesting view on the current state of EV manufacturing/marketing here in the US:

"At least you’ll know there are others wondering why modern EVs are so needlessly big, heavy and dangerously fast."

https://jalopnik.com/the-u-s-is-making-the-same-mistakes-with-evs-that-it-m-1849950812

Exactly.
2022 Rivian R1T/Curb weight
7,148 lbs

gross wt 8532
which I think means it can only carry 1400lbs payload including passengers, if so that's pitiful for a real truck

I've seen a couple of these in my area. Looks like an SUV with an open back, nothing more. My diesel F350 crew cab weighs significantly less and I've carried a few thousand pounds of road gravel in the bed, carried a truck camper and a lot of other heavy duty stuff (and still going strong at 19 years old and over 250,000 miles) that I doubt a Rivian could touch, let alone the inherent range and charging restrictions. Great ride for DiCaprio types as they drive to their private or charted jets to accept their next big environmental award or save the planet meeting. How about the road damage when a significant number of vehicles are replaced with these bloated weight EVs or how about when you are in an accident with one weighing twice or more of your ICE passenger car (and I thought my truck was bad in that regard). If EVs are the future then laws banning ICE vehicle sales need to add EV weight and performance criteria, that is if it is really all about saving the planet vs having the next shiny new toy or virtue signaling bling cred. I'm not against EVs but they currently seem to fit best for simple tasks mostly limited to local transportation needs. Maybe an ICE replacement for some (and that's great) but I'm guessing just an additional vehicle on top of their ICE for many.

 

[Rexlion]

Interesting view on the current state of EV manufacturing/marketing here in the US:

"At least you’ll know there are others wondering why modern EVs are so needlessly big, heavy and dangerously fast."

https://jalopnik.com/the-u-s-is-making-the-same-mistakes-with-evs-that-it-m-1849950812

Yeah, why doesn't everyone ride a class 1 or 2 ebike? Smaller, lighter, and slower!