Electric Car thread

[Readytoride]

The way the car companies are jumping into the EV market makes me think they are counting on or know of better batteries coming
soon. There has to be something on the horizon for them to be investing so heavily in the EV market.. What we now have in battery performance leaves a lot to be desired. Things like weight to energy, extreme weather performance, fire hazard etc.

Legacy manufacturers are being forced to change by government mandates. They are literally being dragged kicking and screaming into an EV future where gas cars will be the museum pieces of past technology castigated as the main catalyst of climate change. If legacy car companies had their way they'd continue making ICE cars forever. It's just my opinion but I don't think the manufacturers necessarily care, or anticipate, anything along the lines of new battery technology. They aren't that farsighted, or that invested, and will just use whatever materials are available. There is nothing altruistic or forward thinking about the legacy automotive manufacturers. They have only two choices before the end of this decade: change all their manufacuring to EVs, or die off. Granted, their investors wouldn't be too keen to have their stock go bust, so the only way these companies can keep making money is to change their business model to what the government wants (zero emission cars) and build what the consumer will buy (good looking zero emission cars). The "practical price" will shake out over the next few years as more EVs being offered produces a more competitive market.

It is the startup electric car companies that are vested in discovering new battery technology and are actively working to develop their own resources.

Technology advances will be driven by the mandates and the startups. We might see changes as slow and cumbersome when looking at it from day to day, but looking back only 4 years one can see a huge difference today in availability of charging stations, EV models offered, battery improvement in range, and consumer acceptance. In 4 more years even greater strides will be realized. It just takes time to set a brand new infrastructure in place, and test it until it meets the demands of an ever increasing acceptance.

 

[BigNerd]

And my reason for posting the original comment was in response to the claim that full EV usage by everyone would only raise the amount of electricity needed by 20-some percent. Well, whoopee, because the utilities aren't set to handle that much increase in demand! Add another 20% draw to the grid nationwide, and a flea landing on a power line might be enough to shut down the whole country! (Ok, that last bit was hyperbole.)

This is a concern shared by many but like with any technology, society will adjust. Remember how slow your internet was on your phone back before the iPhone?

EV adoption is also driving solar adoption and in places where sun is plentiful, that's a good thing. Battery tech will evolve and soon (well relatively) the grid will be better off because each home/neighborhood will be its own microgrid.

 

[procreator]

Interesting view on the current state of EV manufacturing/marketing here in the US:

"At least you’ll know there are others wondering why modern EVs are so needlessly big, heavy and dangerously fast."

https://jalopnik.com/the-u-s-is-making-the-same-mistakes-with-evs-that-it-m-1849950812

 

[EMGX]

Interesting view on the current state of EV manufacturing/marketing here in the US:

"At least you’ll know there are others wondering why modern EVs are so needlessly big, heavy and dangerously fast."

https://jalopnik.com/the-u-s-is-making-the-same-mistakes-with-evs-that-it-m-1849950812

Exactly.
2022 Rivian R1T/Curb weight
7,148 lbs

gross wt 8532
which I think means it can only carry 1400lbs payload including passengers, if so that's pitiful for a real truck

I've seen a couple of these in my area. Looks like an SUV with an open back, nothing more. My diesel F350 crew cab weighs significantly less and I've carried a few thousand pounds of road gravel in the bed, carried a truck camper and a lot of other heavy duty stuff (and still going strong at 19 years old and over 250,000 miles) that I doubt a Rivian could touch, let alone the inherent range and charging restrictions. Great ride for DiCaprio types as they drive to their private or charted jets to accept their next big environmental award or save the planet meeting. How about the road damage when a significant number of vehicles are replaced with these bloated weight EVs or how about when you are in an accident with one weighing twice or more of your ICE passenger car (and I thought my truck was bad in that regard). If EVs are the future then laws banning ICE vehicle sales need to add EV weight and performance criteria, that is if it is really all about saving the planet vs having the next shiny new toy or virtue signaling bling cred. I'm not against EVs but they currently seem to fit best for simple tasks mostly limited to local transportation needs. Maybe an ICE replacement for some (and that's great) but I'm guessing just an additional vehicle on top of their ICE for many.

 

[Rexlion]

Interesting view on the current state of EV manufacturing/marketing here in the US:

"At least you’ll know there are others wondering why modern EVs are so needlessly big, heavy and dangerously fast."

https://jalopnik.com/the-u-s-is-making-the-same-mistakes-with-evs-that-it-m-1849950812

Yeah, why doesn't everyone ride a class 1 or 2 ebike? Smaller, lighter, and slower!

 

[procreator]

I'm not against EVs but they currently seem to fit best for simple tasks mostly limited to local transportation needs. Maybe an ICE replacement for some (and that's great) but I'm guessing just an additional vehicle on top of their ICE for many.

We are going live in a mixed mode world for the foreseeable future where we have not only ICE and EV vehicles on the road at the same time, but big and small ones like we currently have. If there is anything we have learned in the past 100 years of motorized vehicles is that size matters. Accident survivability is directly related to the amount of steel surrounding the passengers. Therefore, in order to be safe people are going to have to have bigger vehicles with more steel surrounding them. Added battery weight does not suffice or add protection.

https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight

 

[BigNerd]

Electric Ram 1500 Revolution EV truck with 3-rows and saloon doors:

Electric Ram 1500 Truck Takes Fight to Ford, Chevy, Tesla With Third Row, Wild Features

Ram's EV pickup may be late, but it wants nothing less than to revolutionize trucks.

www.motortrend.com

 

[Deacon Blues]

I like EVs a lot, but my biggest beef with them is their cost. It seems that a new model comes out every week, but they tend to be (in North America) high-end models with huge power and accompanying huge price tags.
For EVs to really catch on in North America auto manufacturers need to start producing MUCH cheaper models, so average consumers (like me) can actually afford to buy one.
They have cheaper EVs in Europe, but not in NA.

 

[pmcdonald]

I like EVs a lot, but my biggest beef with them is their cost. It seems that a new model comes out every week, but they tend to be (in North America) high-end models with huge power and accompanying huge price tags.
For EVs to really catch on in North America auto manufacturers need to start producing MUCH cheaper models, so average consumers (like me) can actually afford to buy one.
They have cheaper EVs in Europe, but not in NA.

It's similar here. The cheapest model starts at $47k, with skant few under $60k. The +$70k sector is alive with choice. For comparison, Australians spend $41k on average on new cars. Which is a lot more than I've ever spent. Hopefully we'll see the Chinese car and battery makers like BYD launching sub $40k EVs here this year. Realistically they're just going to be city cars though with batteries at that price point.

 

[WattsUpDude]

I like EVs a lot, but my biggest beef with them is their cost. It seems that a new model comes out every week, but they tend to be (in North America) high-end models with huge power and accompanying huge price tags.
For EVs to really catch on in North America auto manufacturers need to start producing MUCH cheaper models, so average consumers (like me) can actually afford to buy one.
They have cheaper EVs in Europe, but not in NA.

A base model Bolt EV can be very affordable especially if you can take advantage of the tax credits this year.

 

[procreator]

My problem is that I always buy used. I'm reluctant even to buy a used hybrid due to the battery replacement cost If needed. I'd be even more hesitant to buy a used EV.

 

[scrambler]

I bought a used 2014 chevy spark several years ago for $7800, used it for 4 years and sold it a few years back for $8000 having spent nothing on it except changing the tires....
Best car investment of my life

No reason to worry about it being an EV, only choose a car with a range that fits your needs accounting for some battery reduction over the period you plan to keep the car.

 

[PDoz]

My problem is that I always buy used. I'm reluctant even to buy a used hybrid due to the battery replacement cost If needed. I'd be even more hesitant to buy a used EV.

why?

Many ev's have an 8 year battery warranty - how many dinoburners get a new motor if to dies at 8 years?

 

[procreator]

Many ev's have an 8 year battery warranty - how many dinoburners get a new motor if to dies at 8 years?

Understand. However, I rarely buy a car newer than 8 yrs old. I look for quality used cars on which I can do my own repairs, and I take them to a mechanic for a pre-buy inspection. I suspect that as more and more used EVs come on the market, there will be better tools available to assess the condition of them.

In any case, a new ICE motor costs about $3-4k, or can likely be rebuilt for less if needed. A new battery costs $6k+, requires professional installation, and cannot be rebuilt at least not by a shade-tree mechanic like myself.

 

[PDoz]

Understand. However, I rarely buy a car newer than 8 yrs old. I look for quality used cars on which I can do my own repairs, and I take them to a mechanic for a pre-buy inspection. I suspect that as more and more used EVs come on the market, there will be better tools available to assess the condition of them.

In any case, a new ICE motor costs about $3-4k, or can likely be rebuilt for less if needed. A new battery costs $6k+, requires professional installation, and cannot be rebuilt at least not by a shade-tree mechanic like myself.

Sadly, replacing ice motors is becoming less viable with modern vehicles. A mechanic friend of mine had 2 recent experiences where the electrics refused to cooperate - a mercedes vito and a suzuki vitarra.. Long negotiations with dealerships were unsuccessful at finding the expertise ( or motivation) to overcome the issues. Apparently the tech is designed to stop stolen cars being stripped and sold as parts, so forget about eg making 1 good car out of 2.

Rebuilding was cost prohibitive - even with him doing most of the work. He's an old school mechanic from the era where mechanics could diagnose and fix rather than just replace black boxes. He ended up buying a new car for the first time in his life !

For what it's worth, I used to keep my cars for 20+ years - maintaining them until they were retired. I made the call 4 years ago to prematurely retire my 1998 mitsubishi ute - I didn't feel safe driving 1.5 tonnes without abs I have zero intention of keeping it's replacement long term - hence my interest in this thread. Safety technology is rapidly advancing, as is ride quality and comfort / convenience. Fuel and servicing costs are approaching the point where a new ice stops making sense after 3/4 years. I'm not fooling myself into thinking I'll buy an ev and still have it in 10 years - we're still transitioning and I fully expect to be wanting something newer around that 3/4 year mark - good news for people like yourself who might be looking second hand but still within battery warranty?

 

[Readytoride]

A new battery costs $6k+, requires professional installation, and cannot be rebuilt at least not by a shade-tree mechanic like myself.

The "shade tree mechanic" (love that old farrier term) will eventually transition from wrenches, grease, oil, and piles of rusted parts to learning how to diagnose a bad cell pack, drop and open an EV battery, and remove/replace the cell pack with a new one. No oil and no grease involved. Just new equipment to raise the car and lower the battery. You'll still need those wrenches for the bolts holding the battery pack in place under the car.

There are innovative backyard mechanics out there already experimenting with the new fangled technology. It's fun to watch their YouTube videos and see how they circumnavigate the new obstacles of modern vehicles. They take it as a challege to see if they can triumph. My son, who loves to find the old cast-off "buried in the weeds for 10 years" type classics and get them running and back out on the road again (I stand in awe of his "wrenching" talent and knowledge) , has now expressed an interest in getting an early Leaf. About the 2012 timeframe. You could have knocked me down with a feather when he told me that. But apparently he's not alone in his age group at looking at the older, affordable EVs as their new projects. Problem is, there are scant few to choose from and the market on those is thin.

Batteries at this point are still pricy. I've read of quotes up to $12k to replace a battery. The old ones, even with diminished range, have value and are in demand because they can be re-packed with new cells to bring back the original range, or used as solar power banks since they are designed to charge and recharge easily.

I'm at 70,000+ miles on my 2018, and in 4 more years expect to be at 150,000 miles. There are a few maintenance things I'll need to keep an eye on (cabin filter, tires, lights, windshield washer fluid, 12 volt battery) but I suspect the original equipment brakes will still be basically new (since I almost exclusively use e-pedal driving) and shocks and suspension will survive as well. All my ice cars reached 150k to 200k, but by 90k they were starting to nickle and dime me to death with engine repairs. It's the little things that you forget about later, but annoy you with repairs (some fairly pricy) at the time. All those millions of pieces, including the cooling systems, needed for a combustion engine to work. It will be interesting to see if my EV reaches that milestone of 90k with only the tires needed to be replaced due to wear.

Surprisingly, I'm still enjoying the level of tech and comfort my EV offers, and very reluctant to give any of it up for a newer model. I do like being able to indulge my inner teenager now and then to hop in my car for a drive without worrying about gas or gas prices to fund my frivilous fun. Yes, I do have to replace the energy used, but I can get some of that for free at any and all free Level 2s in the area. Otherwise I have to suck up some of my home grown solar supplied energy for the car, which isn't much of a hit. A few pennies. Not anywhere even close to the $$$ hit from a gasoline station. Best part? No toxins spewed into my breathing air at any time. And silent. Oh, so blissfully silent.

However, I intend to keep my Prius, just in case I need to drive a long distance (gotta love that 60+ mpg) because the EV charging infrastructure is still building out. When the new infrastructure can comfortably accommodate my EV distance needs, then the Prius will find a new owner. But not before.

 

[Readytoride]

I suspect that as more and more used EVs come on the market, there will be better tools available to assess the condition of them.

The chassis and suspension remain the same in the crossover from ICE to EV, so a good mechanic can still be of value in accessing how well a used car has held up with axles, shocks, rust, etc.

Otherwise, it's just the two batteries - the 12 volt and the main drive battery - that require a quick diagnostic. Both are very easy to check with tools already available. My EV main battery uses an OBD dongle (just like most modern ICE cars use) to access its internal database to see the health of each cell pack. A cell phone app and that inexpensive dongle are all that are needed. Dealers will probably still try to gouge the unsuspecting public for hundreds of $$$ (ask me how I know this) for doing a simple read that costs nothing beyond the price of the dongle itself.

Because I was curious as to the longevity of the electric motor that powers the car, I've been reading up on it. Everything points to their lack of moving parts and past history with trains and ships to say that a lifespan of 500,000 to 1 million miles maintenance free is expected. I wonder if I'll live that long.

 

[McCorby]

All my ice cars reached 150k to 200k, but by 90k they were starting to nickle and dime me to death with engine repairs. It's the little things that you forget about later, but annoy you with repairs (some fairly pricy) at the time. All those millions of pieces, including the cooling systems, needed for a combustion engine to work.

While the battery on your Leaf is air cooled (most EVs have water cooled batteries), I’m pretty sure it has a cooling system (liquid) to cool the motor and electronics…..and will require maintenance at some point too. Just say‘n!

 

[Deacon Blues]

A base model Bolt EV can be very affordable especially if you can take advantage of the tax credits this year.

I actually came very close to ordering one, but just before I did Chevy put a hold on all Bolts because of their battery fire issues.

 

[scrambler]

LG has resolved their battery manufatcvuring issue, and the Bolt is back on.
We have not had the battery upgraded yet on our 2022, but love it