Electric Car thread

[procreator]

The total carbon footprint for the average EV is greater than for hybrids due to the initial carbon cost. In fact, you would need to drive each about 300k miles for the EV to have an advantage. If people are serious about the environment and doing something now they would be driving hybrids.

 

[scrambler]

The total carbon footprint for the average EV is greater than for hybrids due to the initial carbon cost. In fact, you would need to drive each about 300k miles for the EV to have an advantage. If people are serious about the environment and doing something now they would be driving hybrids.

The article referenced previously and the research it mentions disagree with that

 

[scrambler]

I have no doubt that EVs are the future of transportation. But that future needs about 5 more decades for everything to fall into place: battery technology must improve by about a factor of 5, electric production and transmission infrastructure must be scaled up, the grid must be hardened, etc. The problem, as I see it, is that the entire thing is being rushed and pushed into place before all the pieces are in place. The impetus for this huge push is the "hurry up or we're all gonna die from rising temperatures" panic. And it is a panic. It's not much different from having a bunch of cattle rustlers coming in with guns blazing and scaring the herd into a stampede. A great deal of money is changing hands due to this climate scare; if we want to know what's really happening, IMO we need to calm down and figure out whose pockets are being lined.

EVs are great cars now.
And the only way all the components will mature and the infrastructure will scale, is by spreading its adoption now
If experience has told us one thing, is that we humans don't lift a finger unless we absolutely have to, which is why we are slowly but surely moving towards a point of no return ....
It does not take a rocket scientist to understand what the future will hold when you consume more resources than the planet can sustain ...

 

[Roamers]

If experience has told us one thing, is that we humans don't lift a finger unless we absolutely have to,

Do you think there would be similar EV adoption rate without tax incentives?

 

[scrambler]

This is totally irrelevant.
Incentive/subsidies are used for all sort of things, and all sort of reasons (and by the way the oil industry is one of the biggest beneficiary of these even today).

In case of EVs they were designed to help people (who are notoriously resistant to change), give it a try while the purchase price is still not in favor of EVs.

As the purchase price is leveling, and as more and more early adopters find out all the benefits and collateral savings, and as they share their experience, incentives are less and less needed.

I bought my first EV 10 years ago unsure and because the incentive was there. Since then I bought two more without any incentive because I could never go back to a non EV. And when you speak with almost every EV owner, you will find out the same.

These are just better cars and make more sense on almost every level.

 

[Rexlion]

EVs are great cars now.
And the only way all the components will mature and the infrastructure will scale, is by spreading its adoption now
If experience has told us one thing, is that we humans don't lift a finger unless we absolutely have to, which is why we are slowly but surely moving towards a point of no return ....
It does not take a rocket scientist to understand what the future will hold when you consume more resources than the planet can sustain ...

Yes, EVs are pretty good (not great) now. And yes, present purchases and usage will help spur scaling everything up and making the necessary refinements.

But let's remember that EV ownership can, for the time being, only be a small niche in the market. Neither EVs nor the infrastructure are ready for "prime time" in the sense that EVs could be adopted by the vast majority of motorists. Too many charging problems, too many people running out of juice before they can get to the next charge, too many people having to spend valuable time waiting for their EV to charge so they can complete their journey. People who find that their range is severely impacted by cold temperatures. Not to mention all the applications people use their vehicles for which render EVs impractical for them, such as very long drives, towing, travel in or to sparsely populated areas (think national forests and such), and so on. Plus it isn't easy for a large chunk of the population of the US (let alone the world) to plunk down the funds necessary to buy a new vehicle of any sort. Converting to "mostly EV" will take 2 or 3 decades, maybe longer.

For those who can make an EV work and who have the time to wait for charging to take place on longer drives, great. More power to them. My point, though, is that EVs are not going to be the huge solution to their perceived climate problem for quite some time to come.

Besides, I read a while back that the super-huge cargo container ships traveling the oceans spew more than all the automobiles combined. If there's any truth to that, it might be more efficient and economical overall to get the container ships converted over to thorium reactor power plants.

 

[Rexlion]

The panic is scientifically based…50 years of it ignored…EVs are the PRESENT I maintain without fear of factual contradiction…

For your reading enjoyment: just facts and graphs

 

[procreator]

The article referenced previously and the research it mentions disagree with that

Please provide references to said research. Tx

 

[WattsUpDude]

“In an alternate reality where EV owners consumed most of their electricity during times of peak demand, they'd necessitate costly investments in power transmission and the use of expensive-to-run "peaker" power plants. But in our reality, the opposite is true.”

 

[Readytoride]

Do you think there would be similar EV adoption rate without tax incentives?

I can only speak as one rat in the experiment, but....no. I think the tax credit helps drive the adoption at the moment because, with the infrastructure (outside of Tesla) still lacking on the broad level, there is a carrot needed for the stick. A lot does have to do with the desire to buy into the new technology, but that tax credit helps soften the harsh reality that 1. the charging support infrastructure is still in the development stages, and 2. there isn't a lot to chose from in the new EV car arena so the offerings are limited.

To make the adoption more encouraging, that tax credit should be extended across at least 3 years, not just for 1 year. It would help those with less annual tax liability look more favourably on a possible EV replacement rather than another ICE.

 

[Roamers]

Do you think there would be similar EV adoption rate without tax incentives?

Follow up question: If/when EV tax credits are ended, do you think the price of EVs will drop so they will have a similar price difference to ICE vehicles as when credit was in place? In other words, is it actually the mfg that is benefitting from the tax credit, not the consumer?

 

[scrambler]

Follow up question: If/when EV tax credits are ended, do you think the price of EVs will drop so they will have a similar price difference to ICE vehicles as when credit was in place? In other words, is it actually the mfg that is benefitting from the tax credit, not the consumer?

You are fabricating arguments out of thin air that even contradict yourself

 

[Roamers]

You are fabricating arguments out of thin air that even contradict yourself

That isn't an argument for or against the original question. it's a new question.

 

[BigNerd]

Do you think there would be similar EV adoption rate without tax incentives?

I'd like to remind you that the number one brand of EVs has not had a federal tax credit for years.

Follow up question: If/when EV tax credits are ended, do you think the price of EVs will drop so they will have a similar price difference to ICE vehicles as when credit was in place? In other words, is it actually the mfg that is benefitting from the tax credit, not the consumer?

Prices have already dropped, the Bolt EV/EUV are ~$6k less than the previous year where most brands are raising prices.

As manufacturers move to more universal platforms and scale assembly, costs will come down. There are much less moving parts in EVs than their ICE counterparts... my only wonder is how will dealerships adjust without the maintenance revenue... no oil changes, less brake replacements... will they charge $500 for air filter changes?

 

[scrambler]

I'd like to remind you that the number one brand of EVs has not had a federal tax credit for years.

Prices have already dropped, the Bolt EV/EUV are ~$6k less than the previous year where most brands are raising prices.

As manufacturers move to more universal platforms and scale assembly, costs will come down. There are much less moving parts in EVs than their ICE counterparts... my only wonder is how will dealerships adjust without the maintenance revenue... no oil changes, less brake replacements... will they charge $500 for air filter changes?

Most dealerships have been overcharging for everything compared to local mechanics, which contributes to their bad reputation.
A lot of them have been price gouging during the shortage months, true to their bad habits...

So this remains a legitimate concern, and hopefully will lead to a better model than the current one...

 

[kevinmccune]

This is totally irrelevant.
Incentive/subsidies are used for all sort of things, and all sort of reasons (and by the way the oil industry is one of the biggest beneficiary of these even today).

In case of EVs they were designed to help people (who are notoriously resistant to change), give it a try while the purchase price is still not in favor of EVs.

As the purchase price is leveling, and as more and more early adopters find out all the benefits and collateral savings, and as they share their experience, incentives are less and less needed.

I bought my first EV 10 years ago unsure and because the incentive was there. Since then I bought two more without any incentive because I could never go back to a non EV. And when you speak with almost every EV owner, you will find out the same.

These are just better cars and make more sense on almost every level.

Not for the environment, not for the range,I want, because better!

 

[kevinmccune]

I'd like to remind you that the number one brand of EVs has not had a federal tax credit for years.

Prices have already dropped, the Bolt EV/EUV are ~$6k less than the previous year where most brands are raising prices.

As manufacturers move to more universal platforms and scale assembly, costs will come down. There are much less moving parts in EVs than their ICE counterparts... my only wonder is how will dealerships adjust without the maintenance revenue... no oil changes, less brake replacements... will they charge $500 for air filter changes?

No emission equipment, no CEL, no carbon monoxide( there were entire industries devoted to ICE exhaust, etc.

 

[Readytoride]

Follow up question: If/when EV tax credits are ended, do you think the price of EVs will drop so they will have a similar price difference to ICE vehicles as when credit was in place? In other words, is it actually the mfg that is benefitting from the tax credit, not the consumer?

I suspect...and this is based upon my observations alone looking at the current prices of ICE vehicles on the dealer lots in the US...that by the time the EVs are the name-of-the-game for new cars (based on government mandates and declining ICE builds from the automakers as they phase out engines) car prices will stabilize to where the manufacturer will make a profit without having to factor in startup development costs which are being included now. There is less manual labor required for EVs (no engine and thus no engine parts, no transmission, no manual differentials on the axels), and more opportunity to build/employ robotics to put EVs together. Its going to be a win for car manufacturers.

Right now the manufacturers are benefiting by default from the tax credit because that credit is the carrot on the stick leading potential customers into the dealership doors. The consumer is the one that directly benefits the most, if their tax liability equals or exceeds the $7,500 credit. With state and/or "green" organization credits or incentives, the consumer benefit is even more enticing.

Hope this helps answer your question.

 

[PDoz]

Follow up question: If/when EV tax credits are ended, do you think the price of EVs will drop so they will have a similar price difference to ICE vehicles as when credit was in place? In other words, is it actually the mfg that is benefitting from the tax credit, not the consumer?

Unlikely - Australia has no national ev subsidy, but most of the states offer around $3000 - which they then claw back with road use taxes ( eg 2.5c / km in Victoria - this equates to around the same wewould pay in fuel tax if driving a vehicle that uses 7 l / 100 km )

Our ev's are still significantly more expensive than an ice equivalent - eg an mg zs is $45 k as an ev or $ 23 k as an ice version. ( at the same spec level)

As manufacturers move to more universal platforms and scale assembly, costs will come down. There are much less moving parts in EVs than their ICE counterparts... my only wonder is how will dealerships adjust without the maintenance revenue... no oil changes, less brake replacements... will they charge $500 for air filter changes?

It'll be interesting to see how far out they stretch the service intervals - with many ice vehicles getting 15-20 k service intervals now, it's hard to imagine going much further without suspension / linkages / brakes etc needing a check. Then add in the likely need to hook up to computers for analysis / battery checks etc . Oil and air filter changes are a very small part of the cost of servicing

 

[Readytoride]

It'll be interesting to see how far out they stretch the service intervals - with many ice vehicles getting 15-20 k service intervals now, it's hard to imagine going much further without suspension / linkages / brakes etc needing a check. Then add in the likely need to hook up to computers for analysis / battery checks etc . Oil and air filter changes are a very small part of the cost of servicing

As an EV owner I haven't had a dealer service checkup in....ummm....gee, make that ever. And I'm closing on 70,000 miles.

In the US each state has an annual safety inspection which covers a look at brakes and tire wear and lights, but otherwise suspension is not something that requires a special look-see unless the driver notices an issue. With the EV regenative braking taking over the lion's share of daily stopping, most brake sets are so rarely used that they can go 100,000 or more miles before they even begin to show any signs of wear, if at all. I know it has been suggested by the manufacturer for owners to tap those brakes periodically to make sure they don't rust from lack of use.

We also have our own vehicle specific apps downloaded to our phones or tablets to check various battery points for health, voltage, and ampature. The app I use for my car is called LeafSpy and communicates to my car via a simple dongle plugged into the OBD-II port under the dash. Easy. I check the car's internal computer every month for my record keeping. It takes a grand total of about 2 minutes while I sit in the driver's seat with my phone app up and send the LeafSpy screenshots to myself via email attachments. No need to have a dealership or mechanic run diagnostics. We have it all in our own pocket.

Oil? Nope. Air filters? One in the cabin of the car that takes a few minutes to change once every 40,000 miles. I'm lazy enough to have my inspection mechanic do that for me because mine is located under the dashboard, but changing it is something every owner can do fairly easily. That cabin filer costs about $7. My mechanic did the swap for free. I'll have my son do the next cabin filter change for me at 80,000 miles. My son is also free, although I may "pay" him with a deli lunch.

The only time my dealership ever sees me is when I stop in for a free Level 3 charge (on their dime). The only time my mechanic at my local inspection station sees me is at the annual safety inspection mandated by my state, and the only time my car's hood is opened is to show interested folk what an electric motor (packed under the hood in my case) looks like. Our tire place sees me the most due to my free lifetime tire rotation every 7,000 miles on the tires I buy from them.

EVs are a totally different ball game. My hybred still requires all the annoying mechanical overseeing because of its ICE, but all those wearout parts are being extended timewise because we just don't drive it much at all anymore. The EV is our daily vehicle of choice. Wanna guess why? (Hint: EV torque is addictive, the silence is blissful, no emissions is a major health plus, and no gas EVER is awesome!)

Until you've tried one, or own one, you'll never completely realize how truly fabulous and maintenance free the modern EV is today.