ebikes need more torque IMO

[DDBB]

Love our new ebikes, mine with Yamaha PW-SE motor and wifes with Shimano steps 6000. After riding 50mi. or so we both wish they had more torque for hill climbing. I understand that if they are made too powerful we'll lose access to trails but neither of us were expecting as much of a workout as we are getting riding these bikes. . One of the big reasons I wanted the Yamaha YDX torc was for the PW-X motor which has 15% more torque than the SE. I'd want even more than that though. Of course more torque would come with more watts used so the battery would have to be even bigger. It will be interesting to see what the future brings for ebikes. Flame suit on

 

[enleeten]

Bosch has this with the Performance (28 mph limit, 63nm torque) vs Performance CX (20 mph limit, 75nm torque).

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/drive-units/

 

[rich c]

The future is here for those requirements. Lots of custom bikes running 1500+ watt motors and 52 volt battery packs if you don’t want to put any effort in climbing hills. Limit the speeds to what you want for speed. You just need a fat wallet. I’m tickled that I can ride up an incredibly steep hill on my one route at 10mph on my Bosch Performance line. I used to have to walk up my traditional bike.

 

[MisterM]

Love our new ebikes, mine with Yamaha PW-SE motor and wifes with Shimano steps 6000. After riding 50mi. or so we both wish they had more torque for hill climbing. I understand that if they are made too powerful we'll lose access to trails but neither of us were expecting as much of a workout as we are getting riding these bikes. I would think more torquey motors could be made and still have the 20mph assist cutoff. One of the big reasons I wanted the Yamaha YDX torc was for the PW-X motor which has 15% more torque than the SE. I'd want even more than that though. Of course more torque would come with more watts used so the battery would have to be even bigger. It will be interesting to see what the future brings for ebikes. Flame suit on

Bafang has their Ultra motor with 160nm torque and is often paired with 48v-52v/1KW wh batteries. Bafang Ultra offers astonishing climbing power.

TQ released their 120nm motor and M1 offers a 1.1KW battery on their Sport-Teknik Spitzing Plus carbon emtb.

By comparison, most powerful Shimano 8000 has 70nm and Bosch CX has 75nm torque.

.

 

[Feliz]

You got the wrong bike! I haven't found a hill I can't go up with my Haibike with Bosch CX motor or Juiced CCS with 52 volts/21ah and Bafang motor. Biktrix Stunner would be a great hillclimber at a good price or the eProdigy Magic Pro both with 120nm.

 

[Nova Haibike]

I have the regular PW motor; it seems like plenty of torque to me . What kind of trails are you talking about, and are you making full use of the gears, or are you mashing and expecting it to climb only in the higher gears and not lose speed?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Love our new ebikes, mine with Yamaha PW-SE motor and wifes with Shimano steps 6000. After riding 50mi. or so we both wish they had more torque for hill climbing. I understand that if they are made too powerful we'll lose access to trails but neither of us were expecting as much of a workout as we are getting riding these bikes. I would think more torquey motors could be made and still have the 20mph assist cutoff. One of the big reasons I wanted the Yamaha YDX torc was for the PW-X motor which has 15% more torque than the SE. I'd want even more than that though. Of course more torque would come with more watts used so the battery would have to be even bigger. It will be interesting to see what the future brings for ebikes. Flame suit on

Yamaha PW-SE is wonderful system.
I think you just need to gear it down enough.

One of the downsides of the mid-drives is you have to have some refined shifting skills to fully appreciate the system.
Hub drives are lot more forgiving and one of the reasons Pedego specs a hub drive and all their customers love it.
If you are riding a bike after 15 or 20 years, mid-drives can feel sluggish. They do need more input but they are adequate.

 

[DaveMatthews]

I've up some pretty darn steep inclines on my Yammy powered Giant. It's a Syncdrive Sport which I think is 80nm, but not sure which Yammy motor it equates to.
I haven't been in a situation yet where the right gear and assist level left me wishing for more. Haven't had to get off and push yet.

 

[Alaskan]

The advice you are getting here is spot on, other than the comment that you bought the wrong bikes The jury is still out on that.

I have a Bosch Performance HS with a rated torque of 63 Newton meters and a Bosch CX bike with 75 Nm. Using the gears properly there is precious little difference between them in hill climbing.

With the bikes you have, you should be able to climb pretty much any hill if:

• you are in the correct gear (low enough)
• you are patient and don't expect to do more than 6-8mph up a 12% grade
• learn to spin at the optimal cadence for the system you are riding

You will also find that, over time, as you ride more and build your lower body strength, you will ride faster. I am 68 and weigh 210 lbs. I'm using less battery, going at a faster average speed, uphill, downhill and on the flats than when I started riding an ebike back in February.

Heading in to winter, I highly recommend you take advantage of every good riding day you can through the fall. Get yourself good and hooked on how much fun these bikes are. All good things will flow the more you ride.

 

[Jerry LM]

Evelo Aurora loaded is 95nm of torque!!!! tons of power even top hills on throttle only.



1

 

[Feliz]

The advice you are getting here is spot on, other than the comment that you bought the wrong bikes The jury is still out on that.

I have a Bosch Performance HS with a rated torque of 63 Newton meters and a Bosch CX bike with 75 Nm. Using the gears properly there is precious little difference between them in hill climbing.

With the bikes you have, you should be able to climb pretty much any hill if:

• you are in the correct gear (low enough)
• you are patient and don't expect to do more than 6-8mph up a 12% grade
• learn to spin at the optimal cadence for the system you are riding

You will also find that, over time, as you ride more and build your lower body strength, you will ride faster. I am 68 and weigh 210 lbs. I'm using less battery, going at a faster average speed, uphill, downhill and on the flats than when I started riding an ebike back in February.

Heading in to winter, I highly recommend you take advantage of every good riding day you can through the fall. Get yourself good and hooked on how much fun these bikes are. All good things will flow the more you ride.

When I said he bought the wrong bike I was assuming he was riding in the appropriate manner for the type of bike he's riding, he is an "active member" which would indicate he's spent considerable time around the forum. Maybe I was wrong.

 

[DDBB]

When 1500 watt motors become the norm, then I might have "the wrong bike".. I've yet to find a hill I can't climb and yes, I know the optimum rpm for the yamaha PW-SE motor as well as many thousands of miles on normally aspirated bikes with cassettes so I'm pretty good at knowing when to shift, how to shift, and what gear to be in BEFORE I get well into a steep grade. My desire is for more torque to maintain speed up steep grades. I actually considered buying an FLX blade but didn't want to ride outlaw everywhere. The bike is so much fun, I just want MORE, I think I'm asking too much from it.

 

[Feliz]

My motorcycles have a lot more torque than my eBikes. You mentioned engineering, I happen to be an engineer although not mechanical and as I recall something like 740 Watts = 1 hp. Figure it out.

 

[Ken M]

Love our new ebikes, mine with Yamaha PW-SE motor and wifes with Shimano steps 6000. After riding 50mi. or so we both wish they had more torque for hill climbing. I understand that if they are made too powerful we'll lose access to trails but neither of us were expecting as much of a workout as we are getting riding these bikes. I would think more torquey motors could be made and still have the 20mph assist cutoff. One of the big reasons I wanted the Yamaha YDX torc was for the PW-X motor which has 15% more torque than the SE. I'd want even more than that though. Of course more torque would come with more watts used so the battery would have to be even bigger. It will be interesting to see what the future brings for ebikes. Flame suit on

What no one in ebike mid-drive centric world wants to admit is that at higher speeds most of the torque produced by the motor is lost to gearing. So when you are trying to sustain say 20mph up a reasonable hill you may loose 75% of the torgue at the crank (simple math a 48T front chain ring to say a 16T rear will loose 66% of the torque via the gear ratio).

Hub motors have high stall torque which falls off a lot as the speed increases (although efficiency is increasing) but the torque is delivered directly to the rear wheel so in many cases a hub motor may outperform a mid-drive while climbing at higher speeds. Mid drives are far more optimized for enthusiast riding while hub drives can be much better for high speed urban riding. Like I said no one in the industry like to talk much about this because 95% of the investment money goes to mid-drives. Sadly.

 

[Feliz]

When 1500 watt motors become the norm, then I might have "the wrong bike".. I've yet to find a hill I can't climb and yes, I know the optimum rpm for the yamaha PW-SE motor as well as many thousands of miles on normally aspirated bikes with cassettes so I'm pretty good at knowing when to shift, how to shift, and what gear to be in BEFORE I get well into a steep grade. My desire is for more torque to maintain speed up steep grades. I actually considered buying an FLX blade but didn't want to ride outlaw everywhere. The bike is so much fun, I just want MORE, I think I'm asking too much from it.

That explains it.....you and your wife are both power hungry! I have no complaints with my bikes climbing hills but I find all my bikes lacking in the acceleration I would like mostly taking off from a standstill.....like a red light.

 

[Ken M]

Can somebody with engineering background step in?

I don't know how engineering works, but ebikes have more torque than motorcycles. Maybe ebikes need more power?
How much horsepower does Yamaha or Bosch systems make?

Last time I heard, ebikes typically make 0.4 horsepower to maybe 1.2 horsepower if it's extremely powerful.
Because ebikes making 60-75nm of torque is actually A LOT!

Just to put it in perspective...

Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R 636
135hp
62Nm

The difference is how an ebike is geared vs a motorcycle. The gearing on a motorcycle amplifies the torque of the motor to the rear wheel. Bikes may do that only in the lowest gears when the rear chain ring is larger than the front chain ring. Simple math no one pushing the mid-drive koolaid wants to talk about.

 

[DDBB]

I do like that as soon as you apply pressure on the pedal the motor engages but you only get one shot of power until you can get your other foot on the other pedal so crossing a road from a dead stop, uphill with traffic coming does take some foresight. Overall I think the Yamaha PW-SE system is well integrated and user friendly. I don't wish for more acceleration, I have a sport bike for that but I'd like to be able to maintain 15 mph up a steep grade and that is simply asking too much from the Yamaha system and my level of fitness.

 

[Alaskan]

@Ken M Not sue what bike you are referring to. The gearing on my Cube with Bosch CX is just the opposite of what you were citing above (46 front 16 rear). The chain ring on the Cube's hub is 16 tooth and the lowest gear has 46 teeth.

If ripping up hill at speed was @DDBB 's expectation or desire, then a high wattage, juice-hungry hub motor with a massive battery is the only solution...something more akin to electric scooter/motorcycle with pedals being an afterthought, window dressing or subterfuge.

 

[PDoz]

Can somebody with engineering background step in?

I don't know how engineering works, but ebikes have more torque than motorcycles. Maybe ebikes need more power?
How much horsepower does Yamaha or Bosch systems make?

Last time I heard, ebikes typically make 0.4 horsepower to maybe 1.2 horsepower if it's extremely powerful.
Because ebikes making 60-75nm of torque is actually A LOT!

Just to put it in perspective...

Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R 636
135hp
62Nm

No need for an engineering background- hp = torque x revs

Our ebike motors only rev at double digit speeds ( your cadence - usually 70 ish rev per minute)
Even a harley revs higher than that....they idle 10 x faster than our motors....around 800 at idle, I think the ninja pictured idles at 1800 revs so 20 x faster than our motors , and redline would be 200 x faster....

So we don't need more torque- just better use of gears - imagine idling up a steep hill in top gear on the ninja.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Can somebody with engineering background step in?

I don't know how engineering works, but ebikes have more torque than motorcycles. Maybe ebikes need more power?
How much horsepower does Yamaha or Bosch systems make?

Last time I heard, ebikes typically make 0.4 horsepower to maybe 1.2 horsepower if it's extremely powerful.
Because ebikes making 60-75nm of torque is actually A LOT!

Just to put it in perspective...

Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R 636
135hp
62Nm

You're right.
Anyone who has engineering knowledge worth a salt, will tell you these torque numbers are on E-bikes don't mean much.
Torque numbers on motorcycles are measured by a Dynamometer. These E-bike manufacturers post numbers by measuring some current and rpm of the motor (inside the armature) not at the wheel.

There is simply no way, a motor with armature half the size of your palm at 36V and Kawasaki Ninja can have same torque. Tesla roadster has 3 motors, each one about the size of a watermelon but they run at 400+ volts and 100's of amps of current through very thick copper wires.

Having said that, these E-bike motors by Yamaha, Bosch, Brose etc can provide pleasant riding experience. They prompt you to pedal more and it's a good thing.

In comparison, Bafang Ultra (what @DDBB ) alluded to, has lot more copper mass, bigger magnets and obviously puts out lot more power and torque.
But, they come with their own problems.