Ebikemotion x35 speed limiter "fix"
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cj3209
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Just to give people options, here in the US, BikeBling has the 208W/h eMotion (Mahle) Extended battery for $645usd.
www.bikebling.com
You have to pre-order it; probably takes a few weeks to get from overseas is my guess. I was lucky they had one in stock when I picked up my Dyodo. Fits and works fine.
BTW, this extended battery (208 W/h) adds another 2-3 lbs. Any larger battery is too large, IMHO, for a road eBike.
Cheers!
eBikemotion X35 Range Extender Battery & Holder from Bike Bling
eBikemotion X35 Range Extender Battery & Holder: The new optional Battery or Range Extender is one of the most interesting accessories of X35 propulsion system.
You have to pre-order it; probably takes a few weeks to get from overseas is my guess. I was lucky they had one in stock when I picked up my Dyodo. Fits and works fine.
BTW, this extended battery (208 W/h) adds another 2-3 lbs. Any larger battery is too large, IMHO, for a road eBike.
Cheers!
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I still had to give my feedback on this range extender from Volabike, I already gave feedback on their speed dongle, see previous posts. I have the 252Wh from Volabike. I' m happy with it, it has a lot of advantages over the original from Ebikemotion and some smaller disadvantages. Advantages : 1) it is much cheaper than the original one, you pay much less and you get more "juice" (252Wh in stead of 205Wh) 2) it works differently than the original one : the original from Ebikemotion charges the internal battery : this has 2 big disadvantages a) you always use the internal battery and not the range extender (faster "aging" of internal battery) b) the range extender charges less fast than the internal battery uses energy so you can come in a situation that your range extender has still energy but due to hard work of the motor your internal battery is empty... The range extender of Volabike works differently, it works together with the internal battery which has 2 advantages a)less "aging" of internal battery b) ebikemotion app gives the total energy level of both battery together 3) the range extender has also a usb connection on top for charging fe your phone or other accessories 4) easy installation There are also some smaller disadvantages 1) the cable is connected to the range extender cage and not the range extender battery itself which you can remove. Therefor if the battery bottle is not inserted in the extender cage the contact points are visible and open to water and dust. Therefore if you want to ride whiteout the range extender battery, you have to deinstall the range extender cage (takes only a few minutes but it is a pity) 2)range extender battery is charged with an other (supplied) battery charger, not with the original one from the bike. All by all, i' m happy with this range extender, certainly at this low price for a higher capacity compared to the original one
It is difficult to compare the Fazua with the X35 objectively. The X35 is used in my race bike which weighs only 11kg, the fazua is used in my gravel bike which weighs 15kg. Tuning chip of x35 "stops" around +/- 30 km/h, tuning chip fazua stops at +/- 50km/h. Fazua has stronger motor than x35. Il like the thechnology of the fazua but i think there is 1 big flaw, especially if chip tuned and therefor you use more energy : i find the range of the 250Wh battery rather disappointing : in lowest mode I can only reach max. 75 km. The range of the x35 with also only 250 Wh battery was always above 100km. Personally I like riding the x35 but i think it is more to the fact the this is a very light race bike which is very agile. Personally I think that in your case the fazua is better : stronger motor + you can tune (whiteout any chip tuning) your 3 modes completely individual with the online software of Fazua, so you can really on a personal level choose your support in the 3 different modes (effort, energy, resistance etc...)
Ebikemotionuser
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Hi,
Interesting! How do you know it's not just recharging the internal battery? I find this surprising. It would have to be cabled differently, so not connected to the charger plug of the internal battery but elsewhere. Is that the case? And if yes, then where does it connect to?
Because the range extender doensn' t charge the internal battery when the bike is off. This triggered me and I asked Volabike how their range extender exactly works and they confirmed that it works parallel (= simultaneous) with internal battery. It is though connected directly to the charger plug as normal.
Ebikemotionuser
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Ok thanks. In fact the charging plug has four leads. Two a bit thicker than the two others it seems...
It remains a bit of a mistery I find. The external battery would use the two thinner pins (which are really thin)? Is that thick enough for the power drain (which I would estimate at 3 to 4 amps over 36 V)??
r1roman
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You can show a photo connected to the battery extend to the bike and another when you unplug the battery to see how the plug is, it is not clear to me that water can enter, it does not have the rubber cap?
cj3209
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Agree. The eMotion extended battery is not a good design, IMHO. On a 50+ mile ride recently with a mix of level 2 and 3 power modes, my main battery died on me after 2.5 hours even though the extended was still trying to charge it. I guess I will try turning on the extended battery at the beginning of my ride instead of after an hour. Maybe that was the problem...
Ebikemotionuser
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Hello Thomas,
Can you please explain how the range extenders work? Do they:
1) 'only' recharge the internal battery (as is the cas for the original range extender right?)? If so, do you charge it fast enough for it to never get empty as long as there is still juice in the range extender?
2) directly deliver power to the motor. If this is the case, do they deliver this power in parallel to the power from the internal battery and if so, what happens when the internal battery is empty but the range extender, for the bigger models, is not? Can the range extender then power the motor on it's own?) or is the external battery first used and emptied and only then the internal battery.
As you use the same connector as the one used to charge the internal battery, how do you manage to deliver power from your range extender directly to the motor trough this connector?
Thanks a lot!!
cj3209
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I don't think there's any way for an extended battery to directly charge the motor, bypassing the main internal battery. At best, an external can efficiently charge the internal battery, hopefully faster than the internal battery discharging. I believe the Volabike extended charger probably does a better job at this than the eMotion extended battery.
This is, of course, just my opinion.
If the range extender is connected in parallel to the main battery (like stated above in lucky22 post, "... they confirmed that it works parallel (= simultaneous) ..."), it is discharged together with the main battery at the same time and both have exactly the same voltage (connection in parallel is well know in RC modelling, also for fast charging batteries in parallel). The only problem is to connect the batteries at the beginning, because they should be the same or very close voltage, otherwise there is first high current ramp from the battery with higher voltage to the battery with lower voltage to equal the charge (voltage) between the batteries. That can be solved with slow connector connection and the connector pins are different lengths - those longer ones (which are connected first; usually thinner wires) have internal resistor in series to limit the surge current which equals the voltage between the batteries) while the shorter ones (connected later; usually thicker wires) are directly connected to the battery and short-circuit those current limiting resistors when the connector is fully pushed-in. There can be also a protection diode in series which prevents the high ramp current from the main battery to the extander (to discharge the main battery in favour of extender when connected first time). However, just a technical speculation, I don't know, whether it's done this way.
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Ebikemotionuser
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Hi Peter. I see what you mean but let's wait for the answer from the provider.
In my camper I have two big 12 v batteries in parallel. But they needed to be of exactly the same type and same age in order for it to work. And also at the time they are linked together (that's only done one and forgood) they need to be completely fully charged in order not to have huge current flowing from one to the other.
In the case of this range extender this will never be the case. One of the batteries (internal or range extender) will be more charged than the other, it will be older or newer and not at all of the exactly the same type.
So if there is anything going on in parallel, then I think there must be electronics managing this. Both batteries connecting to separate parts in the electronics and the electronics managing the current flow from both batteries to the motor.
If they just brutally put both batteries in parallel each time you connect the range extender without specific electronics managing anything, then I fear for the life span of the internal battery (and that of the range extender at the same time).
The fact that ebikemotion does the range extension concept by charging the internal battery with the range extender is a sign , in my opinion, that parallel functioning was not foreseen in the first place. So unless we get some solid explaination, I would be very reluctant wrt this new 'paralell' solution.
Just a technical note: Li-Po (Li-Ion) batteries don't need to be the same type, neither the same capacity and/or age, just the same chemistry, obviously, and both close in the voltage. I have enough experience in charging Li-Po batteries in parallel (RC helicopters, 4 batteries 5S (= 21V), 4500mAh, 70C (= capable > 300A) ). It is possible to connect them in parallel safely with the auxialiary pins with resistor first (to equal the total voltage), without any other electronics (there is no short circuit in such case and max. current surge is safely limited with the resistor). When connected batteries in parallel, capacity difference is not important, neither exact internal resistance of the cells (serial cells are balanced during last period of charging, parallel cells are equall in voltage by principle, Li-Po/Li-Ion RC batteries have a service connector with each cell connected separately). That may be the reason, why the range extender and main battery are charged separately (no cell voltage service connector is available outside).
No problem to wait for the answer, I just wanted to indicate, how it could be possible (current limitation resistor can be replaced with MOS-FET power transistor in range extander and more sophistic electronic controll which drive the MOS-FET resistance when batteries are connected in parallel ...).
P.S. I'm an electronic engineer by profession ...
No problem to wait for the answer, I just wanted to indicate, how it could be possible (current limitation resistor can be replaced with MOS-FET power transistor in range extander and more sophistic electronic controll which drive the MOS-FET resistance when batteries are connected in parallel ...).
P.S. I'm an electronic engineer by profession ...
Ebikemotionuser
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Thanks,Just a technical note: Li-Po (Li-Ion) batteries don't need to be the same type, neither the same capacity and/or age, just the same chemistry, obviously, and both close in the voltage. I have enough experience in charging Li-Po batteries in parallel (RC helicopters, 4 batteries 5S (= 21V), 4500mAh, 70C (= capable > 300A) ). It is possible to connect them in parallel safely with the auxialiary pins with resistor first (to equal the total voltage), without any other electronics (there is no short circuit in such case and max. current surge is safely limited with the resistor). When connected batteries in parallel, capacity difference is not important, neither exact internal resistance of the cells (serial cells are balanced during last period of charging, parallel cells are equall in voltage by principle, Li-Po/Li-Ion RC batteries have a service connector with each cell connected separately). That may be the reason, why the range extender and main battery are charged separately (no cell voltage service connector is available outside).
No problem to wait for the answer, I just wanted to indicate, how it could be possible (current limitation resistor can be replaced with MOS-FET power transistor in range extander and more sophistic electronic controll which drive the MOS-FET resistance when batteries are connected in parallel ...).
P.S. I'm an electronic engineer by profession ...
The example I have if my camper concerned lead AGM batteries so indeed that's a bit different.
But how to go parallel when the connector on the bike is intended for internal battery charging. As said before it has four pins in two sets of two. Normally for battery charging you would only require two pins.. So what are the other two pins? Data handshaking? Voltage measurement? Mistery...
Another point... why would ebikemotion not do parallel connecting as well themselves (if it can be done by another provider)? Parallel is certainly more power efficient. Charging a battery with another battery gives a lot of efficiency loss.
Ps : electronics engineer here as well
I don't know the answers why they didn't do that (agree, that parallel is better). I also don't know, how that 4 pins are connected, I haven't checked the voltage on the pins. I've just noted in internal frame wiring, that 2 wires are thick (red, black, like typical DC + and - polarity marking) and 2 are thin (blue, black? - not sure). I can just speculate, that thick wires are direct battery connections and thin wires are for charging, voltage equalization (?) or data. Maybe I'll check with DMM later, currently my bike wiring is not fully connected getting the bike from warranty battery replacement and haven't finished the build yet ...Ebikemotionuser
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What happened to your battery? How old was it? Any tips on how to preserve our batteries?
I hope it's not the fact that you connected your new range extender to it?
It was new, just 3 rides! The bike already came with battery at 20% or lower (red iWoc LED), what I pointed out to the dealer after purchase. Have a look at the videos I've made for eBikemotion
The LED went to violet colour during charging regardless of what I did. eBikemotion customer support wasn't helpful either (better say totaly useless, exchanging a lot of e-mails without real advice). Fortunately I got an idea to connect with the application and voilà, got an error code #193 "Cell over voltage", which was immediately clear to me what's going on. After sending the error code to eBikemotion they adviced to replace the battery as this one is faulty and began to co-operate somehow with my dealer (I shared the contact to them). However, the dealer received the replacement battery after 4 weeks later and it takes another 3 weeks to repair the bike and get it back - there was no way I could replace battery myself (even as experienced person), finally I had to send whole bike packed in the box to the dealer who's located in different country than I'm living in (at dealer's expense, to be honest).
No, I haven't connected any range extender nor delimiter, the battery was faulty from factory (the most likely).
The best way to preserve the battery is to keep it in cool place (not too cold, not too hot, 15°C is ideal) and charged to 40 - 45% for storage (some sources claims 3.6V per cell, other ones up to 3.82V), which practically means for X35 system to stop the charging as soon as iWoc LED goes from orange to green (i.e. 50% charged), if we can trust to the LED status ...
Volabike
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If you starts riding with both batteries at 100%, Volabike extender works in parallel with the internal battery. Both batteries are working together. There is an electronic for controll this operation in our battery.
We recommend allways use our extender this way, because motor load is shared by both batteries and that helps to extend batteries life.
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