Cannondale Topstone Gravel Ebike

[Alaskan]

Richard,
It is not that I want to have a dispute with you. My experience gained from my distant rides on both Vado and Vado SL tells me that the battery power draw for the daylight running lights is just symbolic. This is even true for the Vado SL with its 320 Wh battery. When I stop for taking a rest, I even do not switch any of my bikes off and let the lights operate. Note: I have very precise tools to measure the power draw for my e-bikes and can prove it numerically.

(The Supernova M99 Pro only draws a lot of power at night. The Lezyne on my Vado SL is very economic at any time).

Stefan, we have no personal dispute here, just a good dialog on a technical matter.

The little cubed light that came installed on my Trek Allant 9.9s was not only quite bright but got hot to the touch after a few minutes of being turned on. When I say hot, I mean I could not leave a finger on it for more than two seconds. It was supposed to go into a blinking daylight mode automatically, using a light sensor built into the tail light, which is a small pulsing red light. I don't have a degree in electrical engineering but I do know that to generate heat, a significant expenditure of energy is required.

I was disappointed in the range I was getting with the Allant, which weighs 51 lbs, has a Bosch speed motor (class 3 ebike) and a 625 watt powertube. The range was no better that that of my R&M Delite Mountain which has the 500 watt battery but weighs 20 lbs. more. When I turned off the lights for the first time on a ride, the range jumped at least by 15%, which was sufficient to increase the range higher than the Delite.

Granted, I have not attached a multimeter to the bike to precisely quantify the exact differences in range/battery performance. I just know from direct experience that there was a notable increase in range on the Allant when I abandoned the stock, integrated lighting in favor of self-powered, rechargeable, front and rear lights.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

You are conflating two different battery issues.

One is the 10% reserve for shifting in lights, where the motor shuts off at 10% so you can get home safely and your Rohloff E14, DI2 or other electric shifter will keep working and the lights still work (important in the dark).

The other is a simple question of how far you can travel before you reach that 10% threshold, which will happen sooner if you have electron hungry lighting tapped into your main battery, running during your ride. Obviously there are other factors that have greater impact on range, like assist level, topgraphy, wind, rider weight, etc.

My point is, don't fool yourself, very bright lights that consume significant battery wattage on an ebike, reduce available range when in use.

The Bosch system has specific limits on how much power it'll allocate to lights. There are some lights that draw too much power, therefore won't be supported. The lights don't affect the range because the system will only allocate a specific amount to lights so the super hungry lights simply aren't supported.

Getting into range deals with an almost infinite number of variables, the lights simply don't factor, both from a programming point as well as a realistic one as well.

 

[Alaskan]

A 500 watt battery that gives a range of 40 miles consumes around 11 watts per mile. A typical 800 lumen headlight consumes around 7 watts per hour. On a two hour ride, that light consumes enough electrons to go an additional 1.57 miles...not a lot but not nothing either.

If your motor shuts off 1 mile from home and you live up a hill, you'll wish you left your lights off or used a light with its own battery.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

800 lumen headlight

You do not use 800 lumen for daylight running lights. Be reasonable, Richard
P.S. My figure for Supernova M99 Pro is 4.8 W for the daylight running lights.. One hour of using the lights costs you 4.8-5 Wh. Compare it to a 500 Wh battery.
P.S.2. My typical battery consumption for a full power e-bike starts from 6 Wh/km, or 9.7 Wh/mi.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

A 500 watt battery that gives a range of 40 miles consumes around 11 watts per mile. A typical 800 lumen headlight consumes around 7 watts per hour. On a two hour ride, that light consumes enough electrons to go an additional 1.57 miles...not a lot but not nothing either.

If your motor shuts off 1 mile from home and you live up a hill, you'll wish you left your lights off or used a light with its own battery.

None of that is true except the 1 time that happened to you. Discussions of range is the same as a dog chasing it's tail. There are too many variables to make such a broad conclusion.

Do whatever you want, but you're wrong, the lights didn't have anything to do with the range. If you put out 15 more watts as a rider the motor could potentially work less and if you maybe had 10psi more in your tires or maybe there was .5mph of a cross wind, on and on and on...

 

[Alaskan]

You do not use 800 lumen for daylight running lights. Be reasonable, Richard

The illustration choice of 800 lumens was not mine. That was the choice made by Brendon@OEB - "Yep, went with the 800 lumen Bosch model"

I could not find a 800 lumen Bosch or Busch & Muller light on line to check if it had a reduced daytime mode or not so I looked up a Lezyne model with the same lumen value to see wattage consumption.

 

[Alaskan]

None of that is true except the 1 time that happened to you. Discussions of range is the same as a dog chasing it's tail. There are too many variables to make such a broad conclusion.

Do whatever you want, but you're wrong, the lights didn't have anything to do with the range. If you put out 15 more watts as a rider the motor could potentially work less and if you maybe had 10psi more in your tires or maybe there was .5mph of a cross wind, on and on and on...

So you conclude I am posting untruths, rather than giving accurate accounts of my own experience?

How do you account for the result I reported in post #601 quoted below, if the lights make no difference?
"The little cubed light that came installed on my Trek Allant 9.9s was not only quite bright but got hot to the touch after a few minutes of being turned on. When I say hot, I mean I could not leave a finger on it for more than two seconds. It was supposed to go into a blinking daylight mode automatically, using a light sensor built into the tail light, which is a small pulsing red light. I don't have a degree in electrical engineering but I do know that to generate heat, a significant expenditure of energy is required.

I was disappointed in the range I was getting with the Allant, which weighs 51 lbs, has a Bosch speed motor (class 3 ebike) and a 625 watt powertube. The range was no better that that of my R&M Delite Mountain which has the 500 watt battery but weighs 20 lbs. more. When I turned off the lights for the first time on a ride, the range jumped at least by 15%, which was sufficient to increase the range higher than the Delite."

 

[Brendon@OEB]

So you conclude I am posting untruths, rather than giving accurate accounts of my own experience?

How do you account for the result I reported in post #601 quoted below, if the lights make no difference?
"The little cubed light that came installed on my Trek Allant 9.9s was not only quite bright but got hot to the touch after a few minutes of being turned on. When I say hot, I mean I could not leave a finger on it for more than two seconds. It was supposed to go into a blinking daylight mode automatically, using a light sensor built into the tail light, which is a small pulsing red light. I don't have a degree in electrical engineering but I do know that to generate heat, a significant expenditure of energy is required.

I was disappointed in the range I was getting with the Allant, which weighs 51 lbs, has a Bosch speed motor (class 3 ebike) and a 625 watt powertube. The range was no better that that of my R&M Delite Mountain which has the 500 watt battery but weighs 20 lbs. more. When I turned off the lights for the first time on a ride, the range jumped at least by 15%, which was sufficient to increase the range higher than the Delite."

You're posting your own experiences and phrasing it as if "no if you leave the lights on with any bike it'll give you less range" is fact. Should I have taken that statement incorrectly I apologize.

I'm merely trying to illustrate that your experiences are your own and at best 5% applicable to others. I'm also trying to illustrate that the lights had nothing to do with you running out of juice. Both through the Bosch programming (which I've asked Bosch directly during training and software training updates to confirm) that allows specific amounts of the battery for the lights, and the fact that there are TONS of variables that factor in to range.

 

[Alaskan]

You are absolutely correct that there are many factors that impact battery range, some greater than others.

So you still want to maintain that the lights do not deplete the battery at all?

I stated early on that "Low powered lights=minimal range loss...higher powered light=greater range loss."
You seem to insist that lights make zero difference at all. In order for that to be true they can' get their power from the Bosch bike battery but rather must get their needed electrons somewhere else.

There is a maximum voltage and wattage draw above which the Bosch motor will not support without kicking out an error code and stopping. There is also a motor cutout, software determined, that occurs when the battery is depleted to 10% remaining, as a get-home reserve for lights and electronic shifting. You seem to be conflating these two separate specifications.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

You are absolutely correct that there are many factors that impact battery range, some greater than others.

So you still want to maintain that the lights do not deplete the battery at all?

I stated early on that "Low powered lights=minimal range loss...higher powered light=greater range loss."
You seem to insist that lights make zero difference at all. In order for that to be true they can' get their power from the Bosch bike battery but rather must get their needed electrons somewhere else.

There is a maximum voltage and wattage draw above which the Bosch motor will not support without kicking out an error code and stopping. There is also a motor cutout, software determined, that occurs when the battery is depleted to 10% remaining, as a get-home reserve for lights and electronic shifting. You seem to be conflating these two separate specifications.

Sorry, don't have time to explain myself multiple times over, it's sunny here and we've got an e-bike shop to run! You should be out riding too, not arguing on the internet!

 

[warney]

Sorry all for starting the debate!

How about I change topic yet again!

Anybody got additional wheels for their setup?

I have the stock WTBs and they are are running Cinturato H in 40. It would be good to go a little bit thinner (say 30) but obviously easiest on a separate set of wheels and was possibly looking at a set of DT Swiss HG1800 but reading the internet (I know I shouldn't) they say the 370 isn't a great hub due to slow pickup? Unsure how this would compare to the current hubs on all our wheelsets?

I do practically all my riding on the road and rarely touch gravel, 40s are very comfortable which I enjoy, but I still want to try and keep up with my road riding crew which I think would benefit from having 30

 

[Deacon Blues]

How about I change topic yet again!

This thread was originally about the Topstone Neo Lefty 3. How about you start a new thread?

 

[Brendon@OEB]

Sorry all for starting the debate!

How about I change topic yet again!

Anybody got additional wheels for their setup?

I have the stock WTBs and they are are running Cinturato H in 40. It would be good to go a little bit thinner (say 30) but obviously easiest on a separate set of wheels and was possibly looking at a set of DT Swiss HG1800 but reading the internet (I know I shouldn't) they say the 370 isn't a great hub due to slow pickup? Unsure how this would compare to the current hubs on all our wheelsets?

I do practically all my riding on the road and rarely touch gravel, 40s are very comfortable which I enjoy, but I still want to try and keep up with my road riding crew which I think would benefit from having 30

I think this is a pretty relevant question to the model family as each Topstone Neo, non SL bike has different wheel specs LOL.
Topstone Neo 5 has 142x12 and 110x12 hub spacing
Topstone Neo 2 Carbon has 148x12 and 110x12
Topstone Neo 3 Lefty has 148x12 and whatever goofy front lefty hub

I have a pair of DT Swiss M 1900 Spline wheels in 650b with 1.9" Panaracer Gravelking SK's for off road duty, otherwise I bomb around on the stock 700c's both wheelsets are tubeless.

It's a little annoying that the front road boost setup isn't currently supported by anyone making adapters, like Wolf Tooth.

 

[Gee_Whiz]

With any of these 40lb bikes.. Topstones, Giant Revolts, Niner RDO's, Trek Domane HP's etc.. Can any be feasibly ridden in off mode with minimal effort (a casual ride with non-E riders perhaps)? ie or will you regardless feel at least a slight drag of the motor vs an acoustic bike of the same relative weight, or is this reserved for the Vado SL, Creo SL, Domane LT's only?

 

[Alaskan]

@Gee_Whiz On flat ground the Bosch gen 4 motors have either no or imperceptable drag when the max assisted speed is reached or if you just turn off the system. This would include both Domaine HP as well as the Cannondale Topstone Neo Carbon (I have the Neo Carbon 3) A buddy of mine has the Creo which also has no drag. I think the same goes for the Domaine LT which has the Fazua system, which has the added advantage of being able to remove the whole motor/battery assembly reducing the bike's weight when riding without. Of course the batttery has half the power as does the motor, compared with the Bosch system with the Creo being somewhere in between.

 

[Deacon Blues]

When I first starting riding my Lefty 3 I rode with the power off for a least 25% of most rides. About 3 months ago I started keeping the motor in eco mode for the entire ride, unless I was riding with a slow group.
Recently, I starting riding in sport mode and I like the way the motor changes power output per the riding input.

A couple of days ago I did an 80km ride (25km on gravel) and kept the motor in sport mode for the entire ride. When I got home my battery showed 31% remaining.

 

[Gee_Whiz]

Hey all, so curious.. with the topstones, theres the Neo 2 which can hold 2 chainrings on a GRX800, with this being the case shouldnt all topstone Neos be able to run 2 chainings as well if retro-fitted?

 

[Alaskan]

Hey all, so curious.. with the topstones, theres the Neo 2 which can hold 2 chainrings on a GRX800, with this being the case shouldnt all topstone Neos be able to run 2 chainings as well if retro-fitted?

I think that is accurate. My Neo 3 has a 11 speed 11-46 cassette (it came with a 11-42 and a 44 tooth chain ring which I swapped for a 48t). The Neo 1 has a 2x11 with a 11-34 cassette and 48/32 front chainrings. The Neo 1 has a 10-44 cassette with a 40 tooth chain ring.

My understanding is that any of these component configurations (all of which can be tweaked) work on the same frame. The combo I came up with for my Neo Carbon 3 works well, especially on a Bosch powered ebike. I am not at all sure that the drive system on the Neo Carbon 2 is better, yes it has more gears and ultimately a wider gear range. However I have found that the 1/11 11-46 cassette with the 48 tooth chain ring gives me a sufficiently strong low gear for the rather hilly area that I live in. The speed attainable with the 11 tooth highest gear gives me 25 mph at a cadence of 75 which is enough for me riding country roads in the river valley flats. While smaller gear increments are generally desirable on bicycles, on ebikes, that is not really needed. After over 3,000 miles on the Neo 3, I am quite happy with the 1x11 drivetrain.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I did something similar to my Lefty 3. I didn't change out my stock cassette (still going strong at 7000km), but I did replace the front chain ring with a 48T.
So far I'm very happy with the results.

 

[Gee_Whiz]

I think that is accurate. My Neo 3 has a 11 speed 11-46 cassette (it came with a 11-42 and a 44 tooth chain ring which I swapped for a 48t). The Neo 1 has a 2x11 with a 11-34 cassette and 48/32 front chainrings. The Neo 1 has a 10-44 cassette with a 40 tooth chain ring.

My understanding is that any of these component configurations (all of which can be tweaked) work on the same frame. The combo I came up with for my Neo Carbon 3 works well, especially on a Bosch powered ebike. I am not at all sure that the drive system on the Neo Carbon 2 is better, yes it has more gears and ultimately a wider gear range. However I have found that the 1/11 11-46 cassette with the 48 tooth chain ring gives me a sufficiently strong low gear for the rather hilly area that I live in. The speed attainable with the 11 tooth highest gear gives me 25 mph at a cadence of 75 which is enough for me riding country roads in the river valley flats. While smaller gear increments are generally desirable on bicycles, on ebikes, that is not really needed. After over 3,000 miles on the Neo 3, I am quite happy with the 1x11 drivetrain.

I did something similar to my Lefty 3. I didn't change out my stock cassette (still going strong at 7000km), but I did replace the front chain ring with a 48T.
So far I'm very happy with the results.

Thank you! I was curious if the rear gearing would be high enough for hilly terrain without the 2x11 and this answers that, so much appreciated!