Anyone have experience with SRAM Eagle Transmission on any Specialized e-bike?

[mschwett]

Fun info about motors: https://ebike-mtb.com/en/emtb-motor-comparison/

I have been using the chart about cadence and power production from the above url. I attached a screenshot for convenience.

I have ruled out the bosch SX line because I simply can’t keep pace with the rpm where it works well. I am concerned about fazua because of continued reliability reports. But I don’t have super current information. That motor is on a lot of interesting models including a few that would probably be an easy buy if I can get past the motor issues.

Bosch cx smart system, Specialized 1.2 and 2.2 (and brose), Shimano and TQ all have a reputation for a smooth and natural experience. All of them have ways to get data out of the system (Bosch finally integrates that data at least up to strava I think, but still trying to see that for myself). The tq support might be right on the edge for me. I tend to grind up hills not spin. But I also have no choice because my gears don’t go low enough to spin at a higher RPM. So, I will be grinding in my lowest gear.

The TQ is still very appealing. I really need to ride one to see if it has the power I need. I might go try an sl 1.2, as that will be fairly close.

This stuff fascinates me. I wish I could actually try these motors side by side and feel the differences.

that’s an interesting article - it’s too bad they don’t have the complete set of charts available - at least i don’t see them!

 

[dynamic]

that’s an interesting article - it’s too bad they don’t have the complete set of charts available - at least i don’t see them!

Yeah, I may contact and ask for the raw data. Oh the fun I could have with that!

I did just ride a salsa confluence! IT may have helped clarify things a bit.

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Details! So what was your impression of the Confluence and Salsa’s step into ebikeness?

 

[dynamic]

Details! So what was your impression of the Confluence and Salsa’s step into ebikeness?

Ok, so I was still collecting my thoughts. But some things I am relatively sure about the salsa confluence ride:

• Power from the mahle 35 was sufficient for a strong gradient with the 11-42 standard gearing.
• The hoods did not bother me the way they have previously.
• I still don’t have confidence braking from the hoods but may have found solutions to that.
• No suspension is a non-starter. This thing couldn’t handle the road I was on.
• It was *fun*. My brief ride put a silly grin on my face!
• I don’t love how shifting works on this specific model.

The most important part was the power. This means that the SL 1.1, 1.2, various other mahle and TQ are all “on the table” and I can select by other needs/features.

The hoods were a bit skinny. After riding this one I stood over the cutthroat and the hoods/brake arrangement was much better. The confluence had poorly fit to me mechanical brakes. So this very well could be a non-issue. I really need my hoods to be wider the way my ergon gp5 is wider (which the cutthroat did)

Suspension, I absolutely must have a front suspension that can soak up potholes. That is what slowed me down on this bike. On a smooth surface I would have been ripping down the hill. I couldn’t imagine riding a bike like this on what vermont considers dirt/gravel/back roads.

Shifting one click to move one way and two the other feels pretty awkward. I hope whatever system I choose has a better feeling interface. But I would get used to it.

The down side? This actually made more bikes viable:

• Salsa Tributary ( currently the “leader” )
• Various Levo, Levo SL models
• Tero X 6.0
• Moots Express
• Trek Fuel eXe or really, any other trek electric mountain bike seems to qualify.
• Giant trance

This list is filtered by being on the approved motor list which is currently Specialized (any), Bosch Smart (not SX), TQ HPR50, Shimano ep-801. (Shimano is still a grey area). Possibly the mahle 35 or similar that I tried today (I simply haven’t researched it directly as it hasn’t been on bikes I was looking at).

This list is filtered by being available at one of 4 “local” bike shops. All of which are biking distance with their respective bikes (one is a long haul, but I have done it before). This limits me to some bike fitter esoteric bikes and the normal national brands like specialized, salsa, niner, giant, trek and their associated connected brands.

This list is filtered by those systems that have the ability to share ride data in some way. Ant+ through garmin, directly to strava or bluetooth are all acceptable. Bosch still needs confirmation but it looks viable currently. Most of this is up to the motor system, however, there may be some displays that support it and some that don’t.

This list is filtered by those bikes with UDH. GX axs *might* be enough, but I haven’t been able to ride it myself.

Some of these bikes have stock options with transmission. Some are carbon (or have carbon and aluminum models). I still do not have an opinion about carbon vs aluminum on frame or wheels.

The down side, there is no way to try these bikes here. Local bike shops simply do not stock this level of bike. It is always a special order.

If I had to press order tonight, it would be the Tributary assuming a good return policy (given I can’t even try any version of the bike). If I could drop udh/transmission as a requirement, it would open the door to a plethora of bikes like the tributary (yes, the creo 2 would be on that list, probably very near the top).

Gonna work through a bunch of it tonight.

 

[BlackHand]

Yeah, the eMtb article is a really good resource. But it's really easy to make apples to oranges comparisons from those charts. Because the SX/Sprint is neither apple nor orange it is easy fot it to come away looking like a lemon or a plum depending on your criteria

The chart you linked shows where each motor sustains its peak power. So if the SL motors are strong enough for you, the chart tells you nothing about what cadence you need to get 300-350w from the SX. According to Bosch it gives you 400w mechanical at 70rpm which is plausible given its 55Nm torque ... although maybe a tad optimistic.

From the roundup article:
If you’re in the wrong gear or have to pedal slowly in narrow climbing sections, the Performance Line SX requires significantly more input than the CX model – although still less than the TQ HPR 50 and the FAZUA Ride 60.

My concern with the SX/Sprint is that it doesn't seem much more efficient than the other Bosch so it would be prone to eating up battery at high speeds or assist with the smallish batteries it is paired with.

 

[BlackHand]

If I had to press order tonight, it would be the Tributary assuming a good return policy (given I can’t even try any version of the bike).

You have REI in Vermont? Hard to get a better return policy than theirs.

 

[dynamic]

the chart tells you nothing about what cadence you need to get 300-350w from the SX.

Yes! Absolutely!

you could keep up that line of thinking and match any of the higher power motors to the sx or tq. But with those you could do it anywhere between 60 and 100 rpm. The sx possibly couldn’t match the sl or tq at 65 rpm. Without the power curve, we don’t know.

The reason I am not considering it is because grinding uphill is a real possibility. Without trying the SX extensively, it remains a risk. That said, if an ideal bike had that motor, I would probably make a strong effort to find it somewhere and try it.

Very good points.

 

[dynamic]

You have REI in Vermont? Hard to get a better return policy than theirs.

Yes, but it’s not biking distance. And talking to that bike department does not give me warm fuzzy feelings. It is on the table. And I do buy their frequently for that reason.

 

[Prairie Dog]

The most important part was the power. This means that the SL 1.1, 1.2, various other mahle and TQ are all “on the table” and I can select by other needs/features.

Suspension, I absolutely must have a front suspension that can soak up potholes.

People keep saying that, but people don’t understand biking in vermont. In the course of a 3 mile ride, I can easily move from pavement, to gravel road, to light trail, to class 4 roads…. etc, all involvinig 500-2,000 feet of ascending. Often more. Any bike that can’t handle all of that here is severely limited in where you can actually go. It would be lovely to have a bike dedicated to the *primary* goal of each ride, but that’s not realistic from a budgeting or practicality perspective.

The down side, there is no way to try these bikes here. Local bike shops simply do not stock this level of bike. It is always a special order.

I realize that the Levo SL made your viable list but you might want to drop the 1.1 version if any amount of ascension is going to be part your ride repertoire plus you may feel that it’s further hampered by its non UDH compliance. The lighter more powerful Creo 2 E5, however, would likely be a better choice, IMO. The Trib on paper alone might represent a better value and appears to trump the new Creo in several aspects including that all important front suspension which is one of your prerequisites. There’s a lot to be said for 120mm of travel.

As for test rides, I face a similar challenge in having to drive 100 + km to the nearest dealer that will allow me to hop on a bike. Local shops here don’t have enough stock to demo. One out of town store won’t even let me wheel out the front door and instead provides a room where only short laps are permitted.

 

[dynamic]

I realize that the Levo SL made your viable list but you might want to drop the 1.1 version if any amount of ascension is going to be part your ride

I would not buy the 1.1 unless the deal was insane. There is a levo (don’t remember which) that is like 60% off on the floor of my bike shop. In that scenario, I would consider a 1.1. Not sure about size. This one definitely had UDH on it.

The lighter more powerful Creo 2 E5, however, would likely be a better choice, IMO.

I am very much with you on this. The question is really: how badly do I want UDH/transmission. The answer is not known. I need to actually ride something with otherwise great electronic shifting to see if I care. I do like the idea of “future proofing” though. But, I think in that vein (and price) the trek fuel eXe is a top contender. I am also quite tempted to go carbon.

I have not checked if creo can support a gravel fork. I seriously doubt futureshock 3.0 can cope with this. But, yes, tributary benefits largely come from being a “real” drop bar hardtail mountain bike With all the benefits and flaws. These choices are making the fuel eXe look better and better.

Ha! I haven’t even found a shop that I could go to that would have a different situation. I would probably need to get near to boston. Or get lucky with a semi-local place happening to have the model I want to try.

 

[mschwett]

I have not checked if creo can support a gravel fork. I seriously doubt futureshock 3.0 can cope with this. But, yes, tributary benefits largely come from being a “real” drop bar hardtail mountain bike With all the benefits and flaws. These choices are making the fuel eXe look better and better….

there are reports of people replacing the fork and headset of the creo with either fully rigid or real suspension forks. haven’t seen it myself and it will absolutely void your frame warranty, but all signs are that it would “fit.”

also i’m sure you’re not in a hurry but keep in mind if you want an aluminum bike that at the moment the creo 2 e5 is unobtanium. no eta on customer or b2b specialized sites…

 

[dynamic]

Guys, I may have made a decision. Crazy.

 

[Ben J]

fork and headset of the creo with either fully rigid or real suspension forks

Really? The reviews implied that you were locked into futureshock forever. Maybe they meant if you keep the fork?

 

[mschwett]

Really? The reviews implied that you were locked into futureshock forever. Maybe they meant if you keep the fork?

it’s also possible to replace it with a dummy tube! but yes, practically speaking, as sold you’re locked in. replacing the fork and headset is a pretty big deal.

 

[dynamic]

I would like to do a sanity check around expectations with you guys on my bike selection. Basically, I narrowed it down to these four bikes ( recognizing that there are 40ish models of bikes that fit most of my criteria particularly full power bosch based mountain bikes ).

Trek fuel exe - gx transmission - carbon - tq - full suspension
Salsa Trbutary - needs gx upgrade - aluminum - bosch 85nm - 120mm hardtail + kinekt seat post
Giant Trance - transmission - carbon - syncdrive 85nm - full suspension
Moots Express - needs transmission upgrade - carbon - tq - full suspension (could be flat or drop. And happens to be available from my bike fitter)

There are a few others like the scott lumen, maybe pivot which would require me to go a bit further for an authorized shop. It’s not out of the question. But all of them would basically be a 1 to 1 substitution for something on this list. For example, the scott lumen is basically identical to the trek fuel exe for my purposes ( but would need some upgrades to truly be 1 to 1). Same with levo sl. Levo SL costs quite a bit more than the equivalent models on this list and also faces availability issues. Same issue with the tero X. Hence not being in the primary 4.

It should be noted that Trek Fuel exe was well in the lead until yesterday. They had an aluminum model fully equipped with transmission at the best price of these bikes (By a large amount) with no upgrades necessary. For some reason, today, it is no longer available. So, now, I have to get the carbon model, putting the pricing right inline with everyone else.

My gut feeling is still saying trek fuel exe carbon model. But my head is saying tributary + upgrades. The reason my head is saying tributary, is it’s also configurable as a “practical” bike. Rack, fenders, can even connect some accessories to the main bike power (like rtl615 radar and possibly the transmission and lights). This makes it a functional replacement of the tero X but in a more fun form factor. And likely remains more practical in the winter (more of a can have good fenders on it thing) than the mountain bike (for commuter practical purposes).

I am trying to nail down these parameters:

carbon vs aluminum
light motor vs full power motor
fun vs practical

If I could ride each of these bikes, I could probably select on my own. I am seeing if there is anywhere I can do that within a reasonable driving distance. No luck so far.

If anyone has any sage advice around these, I would love to hear it before I go pay for a bike this weekend.

Thanks!

 

[mschwett]

I would like to do a sanity check around expectations with you guys on my bike selection. Basically, I narrowed it down to these four bikes ( recognizing that there are 40ish models of bikes that fit most of my criteria particularly full power bosch based mountain bikes ).

Trek fuel exe - gx transmission - carbon - tq - full suspension
Salsa Trbutary - needs gx upgrade - aluminum - bosch 85nm - 120mm hardtail + kinekt seat post
Giant Trance - transmission - carbon - syncdrive 85nm - full suspension
Moots Express - needs transmission upgrade - carbon - tq - full suspension (could be flat or drop. And happens to be available from my bike fitter)

There are a few others like the scott lumen, maybe pivot which would require me to go a bit further for an authorized shop. It’s not out of the question. But all of them would basically be a 1 to 1 substitution for something on this list. For example, the scott lumen is basically identical to the trek fuel exe for my purposes ( but would need some upgrades to truly be 1 to 1). Same with levo sl. Levo SL costs quite a bit more than the equivalent models on this list and also faces availability issues. Same issue with the tero X. Hence not being in the primary 4.

It should be noted that Trek Fuel exe was well in the lead until yesterday. They had an aluminum model fully equipped with transmission at the best price of these bikes (By a large amount) with no upgrades necessary. For some reason, today, it is no longer available. So, now, I have to get the carbon model, putting the pricing right inline with everyone else.

My gut feeling is still saying trek fuel exe carbon model. But my head is saying tributary + upgrades. The reason my head is saying tributary, is it’s also configurable as a “practical” bike. Rack, fenders, can even connect some accessories to the main bike power (like rtl615 radar and possibly the transmission and lights). This makes it a functional replacement of the tero X but in a more fun form factor. And likely remains more practical in the winter (more of a can have good fenders on it thing) than the mountain bike (for commuter practical purposes).

I am trying to nail down these parameters:

carbon vs aluminum
light motor vs full power motor
fun vs practical

If I could ride each of these bikes, I could probably select on my own. I am seeing if there is anywhere I can do that within a reasonable driving distance. No luck so far.

If anyone has any sage advice around these, I would love to hear it before I go pay for a bike this weekend.

Thanks!

have you commuted or ridden on pavement for longish distances with a full-suspension mountain bike? it's pretty miserable, if you ask me, slow and bouncy and as you note, full suspension bikes can be limiting in terms of racks, fenders, accessories, etc. every single person i know with a full squish mtb has other bikes that they ride for virtually any circumstance which involves paved roads. i would start by deciding if you absolutely need a rear suspension or not.

 

[dynamic]

have you commuted or ridden on pavement for longish distances with a full-suspension mountain bike? it's pretty miserable, if you ask me, slow and bouncy and as you note, full suspension bikes can be limiting in terms of racks, fenders, accessories, etc. every single person i know with a full squish mtb has other bikes that they ride for virtually any circumstance which involves paved roads. i would start by deciding if you absolutely need a rear suspension or not.

Nope! I think that is very valid. Can you elaborate on what is miserable about it?

But what vermont calls “paved roads” is “light trails” to the rest of the world. So it’s really hard to quantify. I was being so bounced around on the salsa confluence on a moderately good street that I didn’t really want to test it further. I don’t understand why anyone would own a road bike here. There are no roads. (Honestly, I see very few of them. And when they look like road bikes, closer inspection tends to reveal gravel / mtb features).

That said, I can probably try a levo or other full suspension in town before I pull the trigger.

It is a strong argument for the tributary.

 

[mschwett]

Nope! I think that is very valid. Can you elaborate on what is miserable about it?

But what vermont calls “paved roads” is “light trails” to the rest of the world. So it’s really hard to quantify. I was being so bounced around on the salsa confluence on a moderately good street that I didn’t really want to test it further. I don’t understand why anyone would own a road bike here. There are no roads. (Honestly, I see very few of them. And when they look like road bikes, closer inspection tends to reveal gravel / mtb features).

That said, I can probably try a levo or other full suspension in town before I pull the trigger.

It is a strong argument for the tributary.

geometry not optimized for efficient riding fast riding, terrible aerodynamics from the wide front end and bars, bad power transfer to the rear wheel compared to a short, rigid rear triangle, that squishy feeling that bounces you up and down as the pavement undulates, of course they're very heavy, etc etc. some of the downsides are changeable (like noisy, slow rolling tires) but then you sacrifice the real off road ability. there is no free lunch, basically. they excel at rough trails, rocks gardens, rooted and rutted paths, etc.

why are your roads so bad? i don't remember that at all from my various time in new england. just a lot of dirt roads?

 

[dynamic]

geometry not optimized for efficient riding fast riding, terrible aerodynamics from the wide front end and bars, bad power transfer to the rear wheel compared to a short, rigid rear triangle, that squishy feeling that bounces you up and down as the pavement undulates, of course they're very heavy, etc etc. some of the downsides are changeable (like noisy, slow rolling tires) but then you sacrifice the real off road ability. there is no free lunch, basically. they excel at rough trails, rocks gardens, rooted and rutted paths, etc.

why are your roads so bad? i don't remember that at all from my various time in new england. just a lot of dirt roads?

I get the power transfer issue especially if you don’t have that brain suspension (or equivalent) or a lock out. But can’t you just lock out the rear to solve that when on a lot of smoother surfaces?

I don’t see aerodynamics as much of a problem vs my sirrus X? Against a drop bar road bike, sure. And, I certainly don’t understand why the riding position would compromise power vs the sirrus X. If both those apply less or not at all to the sirrus X, then I am not overly worried about it. Thus far, if I get my saddle in the same position relative to the crank center, I have not observed significant differences. But I am also not looking for them. They were massive before my fitting.

I do get the undulating squish feeling from the suspension post on some terrain. Of course, that doesn’t affect power transfer at all.

I will likely put hybrid tires on anyway. The point isn’t traction in mud or wet or even loose gravel. It’s potholes, frost heaves, road ruts, branches, giant turtles ( don’t ask about that one ), construction and any other obstacle that vermont is up to. Lately it has been flash floods washing out the shoulders/bike lane/trails/class 4 roads and creating small sink holes. And that’s on top of the utter lack of road maintenance to address any of that. So, very little fixing happens until a road is unusable for cars. On the Sirrus I have to pick my path and sometimes stop because I can’t be where the car traffic isn’t. I might record a ride sometime. And I hate slowing down so much for potholes. Takes some of the fun out of speed. With the blade 2.0, it was nice to pick a smoother path, but if conditions pushed me into pothole lane, I just had to avoid the real large holes.

On top of that, 80% of my longer rides tend to be dirt roads anyway. RWGPS has that info pretty accurately.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Nope! I think that is very valid. Can you elaborate on what is miserable about it?

But what vermont calls “paved roads” is “light trails” to the rest of the world. So it’s really hard to quantify. I was being so bounced around on the salsa confluence on a moderately good street that I didn’t really want to test it further. I don’t understand why anyone would own a road bike here. There are no roads. (Honestly, I see very few of them. And when they look like road bikes, closer inspection tends to reveal gravel / mtb features).

That said, I can probably try a levo or other full suspension in town before I pull the trigger.

It is a strong argument for the tributary.

@mschwett makes a rather convincing argument against riding a mtb on tarmac even with the suspension locked out. My mantra has almost always been trying to obtain the right tool for the job. For your broad range of riding, I’m not sure if a dedicated trail bike would be the ideal fit but only you would be in the most obvious position to arrive at that conclusion. If an emtb happens to be in your wheelhouse, both the Trek/Giant have plenty of power and travel to get you up and down the gnarliest of dirt/rock/rooty singles. My previous ride prior to acquiring the Levo was a Giant Trance E Pro 29er, a very capable shredder in its own right and that Sync Drive powerplant was right up there. The top tier EL 0 and EL 1 both come equipped with Fox’s Live Valve. With regards to the Trek, you’ll have to step up at least to the 9.8 to get the GX T-Type system and that entails a much higher price point than say a bike like the Trib. I could be wrong but I believe the lower spec version of the same Trek model sports the more affordable AXS upgrade kit that will work on any of SRAM’s 12 speed Eagle cassettes. The Moots might be the dark horse of the bunch if it were not for its severe lack of F/R travel but is available in both drop and flat bar formats. I don’t know enough about it only that it sports the improved version to the motor found on my Norco Bigfoot (EP8) which has been a stellar performer.