Oh my, you mentioned pavement riding and I didn't even think about riding in heavy snow. I rode all through last winter here, but did so on generally ploughed trails and streets with very limited deep snow excursions - so my worst case average power consumption on a 275lb setup (me, bike, fenders, panniers, etc.) was in the area 20-25 whr/km (15 whr/mile). In the summer on pavement I'm averaging 7-8whr/km (4-5 whr/mile) on mostly flat routes (some short hills) using a 500w geared hub motor, and weighing about 260lb all in.
250W E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms 250W hub motors
- Thread starter avandalen
- Start date
RunForTheHills
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
A motor is a motor, but sometimes gears can help get the job done. I don't think it is quite fair to call some very valid use cases for ebikes "extreme", like climbing long steep hills with 30lbs of groceries or riding very slowly up technical single track.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I think maybe a lot of that might have to do with available sophistication of the software used for the vast majority of the hub drives sold, no?
I'm pretty sure that if the geared hub software were replaced by something with the sophistication available on many mid drives that may change.
A lot of "what if's" to play for sure, but I believe the fact remains the 2 drive types (geared hub vs. mid drive) can't play on the same level unless they are both running decent software. There's stuff available on the aftermarket that just transform a hub drive. I think there are many that have no idea.....
john peck
Well-Known Member
Hubs can be a pain changing a tire, but my current hub bike will climb with the best mids any time.
This may not be true of all hubs, but at 3k+ mi., mine just keeps getting stronger, (maybe I´m just getting
stronger.) Either way the bike has contributed. Much of the time the display indicates no power usage
even when climbing. With extras it weighs 65 pds+. Once I get it moving the inertia carries it along
quite well.
This may not be true of all hubs, but at 3k+ mi., mine just keeps getting stronger, (maybe I´m just getting
stronger.) Either way the bike has contributed. Much of the time the display indicates no power usage
even when climbing. With extras it weighs 65 pds+. Once I get it moving the inertia carries it along
quite well.
In practice, ignoring theory and simulations, I pretty much agree based on my experience with a 36v geared front hub motor, a 48v geared rear hub motor, a Yamaha PW-SE mid drive and a few bikes with Tongsheng mid drives (one 36v, one 48v). I ride very hilly routes and live on a mountain (not a very big mountain, but still a named mountain).I wrote an article where you can read that a mid-drive motor hardly outperforms a hub motor.
In practice there is no significant difference in performance. You can clearly experience this yourself during test drives with both kind of motors, I did this myself too. Because I wanted to know the cause, I researched this subject extensively. The conclusion is that the advantage of mid-drive motors is only noticeable in extreme situations, on steep slopes while the cyclist pedals only a little or not.
I would like to know how others think about this.
I see from your web site and your posts on the German Pedalec forum that you used the reverse engineering info posted by members there (primarily gamerpaddy) to make a yamaha battery dongle and have sold or supplied 10 of them so far. Have there been any functional problems with the dongle? Any info on future availability and price? I'm not sure I would be in the market anymore since my Tongsheng mid drive bikes have taken over for the Yamaha for the most part but I'd bet there are lots of Yamaha mid drive owners who would love to be able to use a nonproprietary battery if the dongle is reliable and doesn't result in damage to the Yamaha system. (I did build and program an Arduino (clone) dongle based on their early design and programming but they changed it several times since then due to glitches so I never trusted it enough to put it to use).
On my touring setup I can push well over 400 lb loaded up
. I use between 15 and 25Wh per mile depending on climbing and headwinds.
indianajo
Well-Known Member
fooferdoggie said
BTW it took me 3 afternoons to change a chain. I could have bought another tool and waited a week with an inoperative bike for it to come in. So you change a chain 3 times a year? My first chain lasted 2 1/2 years. No symptoms, just the park tool said it was time.
Well, buy a hub motor that costs more than $221. 4 hours down time to change power wheels must really crowd your busy schedule. Had the new controller had long enough wires to mount in the same place, would have been 2 hours down time.
BTW it took me 3 afternoons to change a chain. I could have bought another tool and waited a week with an inoperative bike for it to come in. So you change a chain 3 times a year? My first chain lasted 2 1/2 years. No symptoms, just the park tool said it was time.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
4 hours down time does. when I ride at least 3 hours a day thats a lot of time plus work. I bought my bosch powered bike first because it feels natural and its like riding a normal bike but with more power. second is the reliability and serviceability. I have been able to have things changed at several different shops. I can climb the steepest of hills in Portland and I can Now get this kind of workout. I ride my bike like a bike. I only use the power to go faster and climb faster. Most hubs dont have a good cassette and thats critical if you like to spin to keep your heart rate up. wife and I have also climbed for a hour on our e tandem. soemthing that would kill a hub motor.
Catalyzt
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
I am very curious to see why my hub drive kit failed a few weeks ago.
I'm in multimeter diagnostic hell right now, but the manufacturer of the kit suspects the battery controller.
I also think the controller is most likely at fault, but also think it's possible I simply melted the gears in the motor. My rides are only 7 to 12 miles long, but never have less than 900 feet of vertical, often more like 1,500.
Having both a 250W hub drive, and a 250W mid-drive-- both underpowered for the climbing I do here routinely-- has been very interesting. I really preferred the hub at first, but am slowly sipping more and mpore of the mid-drive Kool Aid.
I'm in multimeter diagnostic hell right now, but the manufacturer of the kit suspects the battery controller.
I also think the controller is most likely at fault, but also think it's possible I simply melted the gears in the motor. My rides are only 7 to 12 miles long, but never have less than 900 feet of vertical, often more like 1,500.
Having both a 250W hub drive, and a 250W mid-drive-- both underpowered for the climbing I do here routinely-- has been very interesting. I really preferred the hub at first, but am slowly sipping more and mpore of the mid-drive Kool Aid.
Captain Slow
Well-Known Member
Foofer, is that 192 watts average power your average power, the motor average power or a combined figure?
Your post makes me wonder if you have ever ridden a geared hub motor bike (with a good controller). I've ridden a old mountain bike with a no-name 48v rear geared hub motor through the gorge, also from Cascade Locks to Viento State Park as well as from the Columbia River up to the top of the mountain that I live on and it handled everything with relative ease. I do put in as much effort as I can tolerate but even compared to my Yamaha PW-SE the geared rear hub had excellent performance. The motor never felt hot even after long (miles) steep climbs although I did find that I had to remove the controller from a controller bag because it did get hot when enclosed (but not when it was exposed to air). The freewheel does have limited gearing, 7 speeds from 11 (or 12) to 28t but the triple front chainring 28-38-48 makes up for that in spades.
I've ridden my wife's bike with a MXUS 36v front hub motor from Hood River to Rowena Crest lookout, it provided excellent assist and the motor never got more than slightly warm after the longest and steepest portions. My wife can't put in a lot of effort but the motor provides more than enough assist on hills, I don't think she has ever even used the highest of the 5 assist levels.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
mine. i was on eco or tour the whole time. so the bike is doing 61% and I am doing 39% I wish I could pick pick out when I di 650 watts passing someone going uphill how muh the bike was putting out.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
I tested a few before I settled on a mid drive. but I have to have a torque sensor it just feels so much better. I have been pushing hills a lot now that I have the energy and I have had hills I can hardly get up in turbo mode. 16% grades pushing hard. the wife and I can climb 16% grades on our e tandem. you would need a much larger bulkier hub drive to do that.
Don't trust that power meter function too much. Below is what I usually get at the end of an hour climb and I am not tired after such a ride.
However, on my dd trainer at home, which is rated as +-%2 accuracy, it feels harder to keep this number for the same period of time. Although that may be a result of inefficient cooling at home.
BTW, can you give the exact location of that hill ?
Art Deco
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
That hill looks like "walk mode" to me. You climbed that?
Asher
Well-Known Member
I've never ridden a mid-drive so I can't compare, but it's worth noting that prevailing hub drive e-bikes are often inferior to prevailing mid-drives, in ways that have nothing to do with the motor.
I'm talking low quality frames, low end drivetrains, cheap tires and wheels, heavier components (eg suspensions, plus and fat tires are way more common among hub drive bikes than on mid-drive ones). The Juiced CCX is something of the standard for commuter e-bikes, and it's 60 lbs, whereas mid-drives in the same category can be 45-50 lbs.
So it's reasonable to conclude that some, but not necessarily all, of the benefits associated with mid-drives have nothing to do with the motor choice, unless a close comparison has been made, like m@robertson did.
I'm talking low quality frames, low end drivetrains, cheap tires and wheels, heavier components (eg suspensions, plus and fat tires are way more common among hub drive bikes than on mid-drive ones). The Juiced CCX is something of the standard for commuter e-bikes, and it's 60 lbs, whereas mid-drives in the same category can be 45-50 lbs.
So it's reasonable to conclude that some, but not necessarily all, of the benefits associated with mid-drives have nothing to do with the motor choice, unless a close comparison has been made, like m@robertson did.
Single-speed as in direct drive motor?@avandalen: Having extensive experience riding both types, as well as having built those bikes, I think you haven't done enough real world riding on actual bicycles as, if you did, you could not come to the same conclusion. I'll admit straight away I have absolutely zero experience with motor simulations or how to make them. I can use the Grin motor tool but only as an end user. On the other hand, I ride daily, build my bikes, and do so having learned from previous experience - and mistakes. So the next bike tends to eliminate the weaknesses of its predecessor. In my case I specifically learned the hard way that hub drives are inferior - in certain common use cases. So with that out of the way...
My daily driver commuter for some time has been until recently a 2wd geared hub bike that I ride daily on a 15.5 mile route, so 31 miles (47.9 km) total daily. this bike has a 31ah 52v battery with a 90a continuous BMS, connected to twin 35a peak controllers. So peak power on this bike is over 4kw. Max speed on flat ground with a bit of a tailwind is about 32-34 mph, with typical cruise being 30 mph. Both motors are hooked up to a single pedal assist sensor so PAS is active on the two motors and in fact I use it as a speed pedelec despite having throttles on the bike. I geared it up so I could pedal - with effort - up past the bike's max speed. Big chainrings and small cogs on a fat bike are unusual, but this bike was purpose-built for paved, flat, long streets. I have configured it in a number of ways over a period of years and at present the bike is running on smooth summer 26x4.0" tires. Pictured are fat 4.8" and smooth 2.5" (never again).
View attachment 86475View attachment 86478
These are two spots along my commute. Note both speed limit signs are in mph not km/h, and the first pic has a separate Class 1/2 path off the road, while both have an on-road path which is where I ride. Laws in my area allow assist limits of 28 mph on that street path, and local law enforcement has no qualms whatsoever about my pedaling hard along a street at higher speeds.
View attachment 86477View attachment 86476
So with all of the above conditions, THIS is the ideal environment for a hub bike. Flat, smooth, straight. However despite my work being in this flat terrain, my actual home is in hilly coastal terrain. I took this bike to that home expecting to be able to ride it. I found that, with its exceptional power levels, it could climb anything (and anything in this case is what could be called a San-Francisco-style hills, which are the rule in that area. Nothing is flat until you get to the beach). However I also found that - given the inherent single-speed nature of the hub - it was laboring severely. It could climb, but it was obviously not happy doing it, and while I had thousands of flatland miles on the bike, if I tried to use the bike for an extended period in this terrain - all paved, mind you - it would not survive essentially forever as it was destined to in the California Central Valley. Those gears would give out eventually.
What kind of terrain is this? In discussions like this people point to pictures of horrifically steep hills, but its these sorts of long, still-fairly-steep grinds that are more typical here, and these do in the single-speed hub as the bike slowly loses momentum and lugs its sorry self moreand more slowly up that hill, turning the power it once used to rotate the motor casing, instead, to heat. I'll link this typical example so you can see it on Google Maps and look around.
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This one is on another side of the same hill. I positioned the viewer in the middle so spin around. Not visible at the top of this hill is the sort of severe grade mid drive riders like to point to and say "you can't climb that". Well, I can but my poor singlespeed hubs with no mechanical advantages will die trying sooner, not later.
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So, faced with this experience, I built a follow-on bike - for hills. Believe it or not this bike has the same frame as the orange one, except its in titanium this time. This bike has none of the weaknesses of the hub on the rear wheel.
View attachment 86479
I'll make this short: Problem solved. Bike goes up hills easily. For reasons that should be clear. There is still the anomaly of a front hub but I lower its output to a sweet spot of traction vs. battery drain to about 250w delivered.
Life sucks for a singlespeed hub going up a hill for the same reason it sucks for a human trying to do the same thing. Don't sell a transmission short. They serve a powerful purpose.
View attachment 86480
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
ya hard to say if the numbers are exact but they will be consistent
it was tough. I know its over 20% grade but to short for my garmin to get the grade. I just got to the top but its been months I am in better shape and it should be a bit easier.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
I think this is it se Tylor road
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