250W E-bike mid-drive motors hardly outperforms 250W hub motors

[m@Robertson]

Single-speed as in direct drive motor?

No I was using geared hubs. A DD motor is the same though: powers thru the axle so it is effectively single-speed.

Somewhere out there, there is a hub motor with a 2-speed reduction. Luna used to sell them. Seemed like a really neat idea but while the motors were apparently well made the public never warmed up to them and they went away.

 

[Johnny]

Somewhere out there, there is a hub motor with a 2-speed reduction. Luna used to sell them. Seemed like a really neat idea but while the motors were apparently well made the public never warmed up to them and they went away.

They should bring it back, two gears makes the hub strong on both low and high speeds.

@fooferdoggie Altimeters are not perfectly accurate, depending on your reception and hardware quality there can be a significant error in your measurements. It is also not possible for me to say anything by looking at the photos. But you can check the gradient of the roads that you feel less steep on the Google earth.

 

[fooferdoggie]

They should bring it back, two gears makes the hub strong on both low and high speeds.

@fooferdoggie Altimeters are not perfectly accurate, depending on your reception and hardware quality there can be a significant error in your measurements. It is also not possible for me to say anything by looking at the photos. But you can check the gradient of the roads that you feel less steep on the Google earth.

it is pretty consistent on the same roads. and its its gamins top gps and it seems more accurate then the other gamins I have. they all have been consistent on grade though.

 

[Johnny]

it is pretty consistent on the same roads. and its its gamins top gps and it seems more accurate then the other gamins I have. they all have been consistent on grade though.

https://support.garmin.com/en-IN/?f...he Auto Calibration feature,+/- 25 to 50 feet.

 

[MikeDD]

I wrote an article where you can read that a mid-drive motor hardly outperforms a hub motor.

Compared: mid-drive motor, hub motor, Xiongda 2-speed hub motor

Hub motor simulation

www.avdweb.nl

In practice there is no significant difference in performance. You can clearly experience this yourself during test drives with both kind of motors, I did this myself too. Because I wanted to know the cause, I researched this subject extensively. The conclusion is that the advantage of mid-drive motors is only noticeable in extreme situations, on steep slopes while the cyclist pedals only a little or not.

I would like to know how others think about this.

You are here today, gone tomorrow. Good bye and ignored.

 

[fooferdoggie]

https://support.garmin.com/en-IN/?faq=tdu65LfVl08mM85HAPoPTA#:~:text=With the Auto Calibration feature,+/- 25 to 50 feet.

so even gps can be off. I checked the last three rides on the same route and they carry by 20% on accumulated elevation. I always get the same elevation at home and I get the same grade on the same rides over and over.

 

[Ebiker01]

t depends on what your after. if you like to keep your cadence up and work then a mid drive will be the only way to go. the gear range the natural feel and in the case of the name brands smaller batteries and more effect setups. If you want to ride a bike like a bike then a mid drive is the most practical way to go. to be able to use the greartrain to your advance is key fore me to be able to put out 200 watts while riding in changin

Total BS !! Buy a quality hub motor 1st then you'll agree that that is total brainwashing. A good TQ sensor and controller is essential.

But first we shouls just assume that the test is equal:

A quality hub drive vs middrive( by default alltough i dislike them all mid drive motors are good or very good). Not the same for hub drive ebikes. Some r trash, some r excellent.

On my japanese Dapu hub motor on a steep road or anything above a 5% incline i could do if i want anywhere from 85-115rpm.

The lesson is: u have to smoothly pedal the bike or ebike , not just grind the gears and xpect the motor to push u. Chainrings/Chain+cassette change @ 7-8000miles; and at any Pas level the assistance kicks in smootly maintaining the speed or increasing it if i go with a harder gear ; of course the higher the assit , the more responsive the motor is.

Also a new Bosch motor is about 1.2k maybe 1500$ for a Performance line gen. 4.

That's about 4or 5 of 750watts Dapu motors or any high end hub motors. Makes sense why they want everyone on middrives , shareholders also demand it

 

[Ebiker01]

hub motor that has a wheel that can't be removed by hand was a non-starter. That and wanting a more

There is something called thru axle that is on most quality hub drives nowadays .

That's about 15-18 seconds of removing the wheel .

But , it's 2021 now and there are less then 11 brands with hub motors and out of those 11 only 2 or 3 of them are really good( WW, Luna , Galiano, Surface, Sondors , NCM , Juiced, Alation, Biktrix , Ride1up and maybe stromer if it didn't went out of business in US, hv. 2 check !

Upcoming brand Zen with Shakti has potential and a loot of room to grow.

Also Aventon is pretty good, probably the best one right now factoring price/performance.

S0, Naturally because there are so many more brands with middrives there will be aA lot more people here on EBR posting reviews and posting photos with middrive ebikes because that's what the market gives us. But that does not imply that a middrive is 1000$ better.

Best hub motor ebike that’s not a Stromer

Hey guys After having driven probably 30+ electric bikes from many many manufacturers I have come to a conclusion (let’s call it personal conclusions so that I don’t stir the pot) that both hub drive and mid-drive motors have their place and each is a better fit for certain use cases. Given...

electricbikereview.com

 

[avandalen]

It's hard to say "Hardly" outperforms, but I'm not disagreeing with you.

I have two very similar bikes. Both Rize with nearly identical frames and accessories outside the drive system. One is a 750w hub, the other a 1000w mid-drive. In my use case of west coast hilly terrain and high-speed long-distance commuting, there is no caparison. The mid-drive handily trounces the hub in all aspects of performance, and by far wider margin that the 250w rating difference should suggest.

But you are also spot-on that the downsides of the mid are not to be undervalued. The resistance level is stupid unpowered (future versions will almost certainly add a clutch at some point),

The simulations are only valid for motors up to about 500W. This is because by nature, all small permanent magnetic motors have equal characteristics. At 1000W, I expect serious differences in performance, but I have not tested this.
Friction when driving without motor support: this is because the freewheel is not mounted directly on the crankshaft, which would be best, but inside the motor, behind one or more gearwheels, which cause the extra friction.

 

[avandalen]

Mijn eerste ebike had een Bionx 250 watt naafmotor met directe aandrijving. Het was absoluut slecht. Het was verschrikkelijk. Het was erg zwaar en het hielp niet zo veel om lange steile heuvels op te gaan en ik merkte ook dat ik het soms kon ruiken toen het warm begon te worden. De DD-naaf was erg zwaar en gooide de gewichtsverdeling van de fiets weg. Ik kon niet zo snel bochten nemen. Destijds dacht ik bij mezelf dat naaffietsen absoluut waardeloos zijn.

Hub motors with direct drive have not been tested in the article. By the way, these are outdated concepts and far too heavy

 

[avandalen]

I just clicked on your link and see you compared 250 watt motors. That's interesting because my Bionx was 250 watts and my Creo is 240 watts. So basically the same power levels as in your comparison. Yours is a simulation and not real world experience so I'm not sure how you know your simulation would be accurate in real world testing or that it's actually representative.
So your blanket statement about hub motors having huge resistance with the motor off is simply wrong when applied to the Creo.

Yes, coincidentally, I am looking to use that Turbo Creo SL from Specialized for my Maxun One solar bike....
It's the rolls royce of ebikes and the only one, I think, without that resistance.

 

[avandalen]

Performance and the associated electro mechanical efficiency must be measured or

Will you test your claim?

I am sure that you will get the same results when tested (with 250W motors) on a test bench

 

[avandalen]

Having extensive experience riding both types, as well as having built those bikes, I think you haven't done enough real world riding on actual bicycles as, if you did, you could not come to the same conclusion.

You're right. But the simulations are only valid for motors up to about 500W. This is because by nature, all small permanent magnetic motors have equal characteristics. At 1000W, I expect serious differences in performance, but I have not tested this.

 

[avandalen]

With the huge differences in available power within the "mid drives", as well as the huge differences available within the term "hub drives" I find any comparison between "hub drives" and "mid drives" pretty much useless. You need to break these down MUCH more to gain ANY insight into their differences.

The simulations are only valid for motors up to 250W. As we use in Europe for driving witout licence. This is because by nature, all small permanent magnetic motors have equal characteristics. At 1000W, I expect serious differences in performance, but I have not tested this.

 

[Johnny]

Hub motors with direct drive have not been tested in the article. By the way, these are outdated concepts and far too heavy

You are a bit too biased. There are cases where dd hubs work great. You are probably making this generalization for 250W motors only.

That being said, my main problem about your tests/simulations is that you don't explain how to read your graphs. It would be best if you have a page where you explain your testing methodology, what do the axis' correspond to on each graph etc.

 

[avandalen]

Hi members, thanks for your comments, in the meantime, I have eliminated some ambiguities in my article

Compared: mid-drive motor, hub motor, Xiongda 2-speed hub motor

Hub motor simulation

www.avdweb.nl

• This article handles about ebikes up to 250W (which are allowed in Europe without a license). This is because by nature, all small permanent magnetic motors have equal characteristics. At 1000W, I expect serious differences in performance, but I have not tested this.
• This article is only about the motor itself, without the software. At mid drive motors, the software has a major influence on the motor behavior.

 

[kmccune]

I wrote an article where you can read that a mid-drive motor hardly outperforms a hub motor.

Compared: mid-drive motor, hub motor, Xiongda 2-speed hub motor

Hub motor simulation

www.avdweb.nl

In practice there is no significant difference in performance. You can clearly experience this yourself during test drives with both kind of motors, I did this myself too. Because I wanted to know the cause, I researched this subject extensively. The conclusion is that the advantage of mid-drive motors is only noticeable in extreme situations, on steep slopes while the cyclist pedals only a little or not.

I would like to know how others think about this.

Justin would probably agree, let me say this- the mid-drives probably require more"mindfulness" and every rider does not want that,I do believe they are the better choice for EMTB.

 

[kmccune]

Hi members, thanks for your comments, in the meantime, I have eliminated some ambiguities in my article

Compared: mid-drive motor, hub motor, Xiongda 2-speed hub motor

Hub motor simulation

www.avdweb.nl

• This article handles about ebikes up to 250W (which are allowed in Europe without a license). This is because by nature, all small permanent magnetic motors have equal characteristics. At 1000W, I expect serious differences in performance, but I have not tested this.
• This article is only about the motor itself, without the software. At mid drive motors, the software has a major influence on the motor behavior.

Size matters, some of these hub motors are real beasts when they have room to grow.

 

[kmccune]

I think maybe a lot of that might have to do with available sophistication of the software used for the vast majority of the hub drives sold, no?

I'm pretty sure that if the geared hub software were replaced by something with the sophistication available on many mid drives that may change.

A lot of "what if's" to play for sure, but I believe the fact remains the 2 drive types (geared hub vs. mid drive) can't play on the same level unless they are both running decent software. There's stuff available on the aftermarket that just transform a hub drive. I think there are many that have no idea.....

I agree, one day before long you will see Hub motors with at least a 2 spd range( the diminutive size of the little beastly mid drives is so appealing- lets keep them all! My companies excavators are not backdumps and the backdumps are not excavators{apples to oranges so to speak}
What surprised Me was how much grunt a geared Bafang had if you just got the wheel to move a fraction( liked its watts though)

 

[kmccune]

No I was using geared hubs. A DD motor is the same though: powers thru the axle so it is effectively single-speed.

Somewhere out there, there is a hub motor with a 2-speed reduction. Luna used to sell them. Seemed like a really neat idea but while the motors were apparently well made the public never warmed up to them and they went away.

Sorry ,I didn't "plagiarize" you I made my comment before I read your post."Necessity is the mother of invention"-its sort of like the emission standards that Automakers claimed would be impossible to meet and bankrupt them after all was said and done the consumer benefited.
There are a lot of benefits that come from research, taxpayer-funded and private{its the market enough People squawk, the market responds, Capitalism is a wonderful thing when the manufacturers are not allowed to become complacent}