Zen Samurai Diamond

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Few folks who are keen on owning the bike upon its launch (Thank you, Ben and Ahmed!) notified me that, it would be good to share some info regarding the Gen 4 system.
Bosch has so many things in the pipeline but some technical details are publicly available but hard to find. So, I will list them below. Feel free to share if anything is amiss.

The main difference between the Gen 2 and Gen 4 Bosch systems are:

1. Gen 4 uses a different sensor system, which is 5x more sensitive. Gen 2 relied on a previous platform based on optical sensors but the new Gen 4 is different. For anyone who have used Quartz Crystal Microbalance (QCM) scientific equipment, would know that it can measure variations in the nano scale. A technology with similar sensitivity using guages has been used in Gen 4 and makes the motor lot more smoother even with a big 55T or 60T chainring. I would say the Gen 4 motor is on par with Yamaha PW-X motor for quick engagement. Gen 2 motors were not as quick to engage has PW-X motors.
   
   
2. Gen 4 has 10x more processing power. As a result, it works seamlessly with the new sensors.
   Gen 4 motors also have new sensors that enables features like "extended boost". I expect a year down the line "terrain aware" kind of features for MTB'ing would be common.
   The new Bosch Nyon display also has more RAM and storage.
   
   
   
   
   
   
3. Gen 2 system was released in 2014 and was used widely used for 6+ years and will be supported until 2027. After that, aftermarket parts supply will be available.
   Gen 4 system was released in 2019 and it will be supported all the way until 2032 and after that, aftermarket suppliers would be available.
   
   
4. The new motors are 40% smaller and lighter. With magnesium housing and better thermal cooling (notice the air vents on the motor), it can churn out 700+ watts in 'Turbo mode' all day long.
   With 85Nm, it has more kick than it's predecessor. Coupled with new sensors, processing power, it is simply a superior system.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

 

[PDB415]

Very cool Ravi. I am excited to see the bike come along.

 

[JRA]

The “air vents” look more like heat sinks to me. Very impressive on the tech end I can’t wait to try one

 

[Deacon Blues]

@Ravi, I noticed on your new website that you will, at some point, be offering an e-road bike (Ninja). I'm interested, because next year I plan on replacing my light road bike with an e-road bike.
Any idea when more information on this bike will be available?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The “air vents” look more like heat sinks to me. Very impressive on the tech end I can’t wait to try one

Bob,

You should try the Gen 4 speed motor. It is quite impressive what they have done in such a light and compact format.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

@Ravi, I noticed on your new website that you will, at some point, be offering an e-road bike (Ninja). I'm interested, because next year I plan on replacing my light road bike with an e-road bike.
Any idea when more information on this bike will be available?

@Deacon Blues ,

Would love to. Bosch has some amazing tech in the pipeline and I am waiting for that to be announced next year because that would really up the ante in comparison to what Specialized has done with their SL platform.
We also have access to world-class frame builders (factories that build frames for Pinarello and Canyon), so doing a custom frame using the current Bosch Gen 4 system is totally possible.

To do multiple models (hardtail, road, MTB) in large volume, we would need access to few $M in credit and a lot of other things. So, we will tread this gently but please feel free to share any details of what exactly you're looking for in terms of frame geometry and specs and we can make that happen in 2021.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Looks like a very impressive bike.

 

[Weaselander]

Would love to. Bosch has some amazing tech in the pipeline and I am waiting for that to be announced next year because that would really up the ante in comparison what Specialized has done with their SL platform.
We also have access to world-class frame builders (factories that build frames for Pinarello and Canyon), so doing a custom frame using the current Bosch Gen 4 system is totally possible.

To do multiple models (hardtail, road, MTB) in large volume, we would need access to few $M in credit and a lot of other things. So, we will tread this gently but please feel free to share any details of what exactly you're looking for in terms of frame geometry and specs and we can make that happen in 2021.

I always thought a Trek CrossRip+ with Gen 4 motor and power tube would make an amazing bike. Remove the rack and fenders, put on 32c tires, you have a poor man's Domane. Or keep the rack, fenders, and 38c tires and you got a fast and reliable commuter.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I always thought a Trek CrossRip+ with Gen 4 motor and power tube would make an amazing bike. Remove the rack and fenders, put on 32c tires, you have a poor man's Domane. Or keep the rack, fenders, and 38c tires and you got a fast and reliable commuter.

Totally agree. I don't know why Trek dropped the ball on that one!
A 40lb, fully featured commuter would be extremely attractive for a variety of reasons. We will aim to do something along these lines in the coming years.

 

[Steve Plattner]

Just read through all of this. Fantastic, hope to be able to ride one soon.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Just read through all of this. Fantastic, hope to be able to ride one soon.

Thanks, Steve! Will notify you once we have it ready.
Someone like you with more than 10K miles of E-bike miles, I think you will like it.

 

[dunksalot]

@Deacon Blues ,

Would love to. Bosch has some amazing tech in the pipeline and I am waiting for that to be announced next year because that would really up the ante in comparison to what Specialized has done with their SL platform.
We also have access to world-class frame builders (factories that build frames for Pinarello and Canyon), so doing a custom frame using the current Bosch Gen 4 system is totally possible.

To do multiple models (hardtail, road, MTB) in large volume, we would need access to few $M in credit and a lot of other things. So, we will tread this gently but please feel free to share any details of what exactly you're looking for in terms of frame geometry and specs and we can make that happen in 2021.

Will Bosch be coming out with a way to add a thumb throttle? That's a great aftermarket concept.

 

[pennybags]

Bosch will never support throttle - and from what we have seen, at least publicly, that is not on their roadmap for the next few years. They have a business model that works, and there is no reason to change it.

You can of course install aftermarket parts (delimiters) to get around this.

If you want throttle from the manufacturer, then Bafang or other Chinese motors are the only option. I believe Bofelli and the Optibike (bofelli variant), and Dapu also support throttle.


I honestly dont understand why motor manufacturers dont support throttle. Give users an option - if they dont want it, you can choose to not install it. There's a reason why Bafang outsells Bosch / Yamaha / Shimano combined - just give people options. People definitely vote with their wallet ... and this is a great case.

I would absolutely love to see Bosch / Yamaha / Shimano etc offering throttle atleast in the US markets, where regulations are not as strict yet, and there is a genuine use case for throttle (longer distances).

 

[dunksalot]

I honestly dont understand why motor manufacturers dont support throttle. Give users an option - if they dont want it, you can choose to not install it. There's a reason why Bafang outsells Bosch / Yamaha / Shimano combined - just give people options. People definitely vote with their wallet ... and this is a great case.

I would absolutely love to see Bosch / Yamaha / Shimano etc offering throttle atleast in the US markets, where regulations are not as strict yet, and there is a genuine use case for throttle (longer distances).

YES SIR!!! The people demand!!! Time to rise up!!! It all starts with a hashtag these days, right?

#ThrottleOptionNow

I'm ready to march on Bosch HQ BLM-style!!! Who's with me? [crowd roars]

 

[Deacon Blues]

I'm going to my shop to make some TON signs!

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

YES SIR!!! The people demand!!! Time to rise up!!! It all starts with a hashtag these days, right?

#ThrottleOptionNow

I'm ready to march on Bosch HQ BLM-style!!! Who's with me? [crowd roars]

Bosch supports 100's of OEMs worldwide. We people in the US take so many things for granted that EU citizens would kill to have.The laws in EU are very restrictive and could lead to huge legal problems if evaded.
E-bikes are witnessing EXPLOSIVE growth in those countries and one mistake, Bosch will be out of the entire industry or face millions in file. So, in keeping up with the laws and rules, they don't offer throttle option.

Having said that, throttles have their place but the North American market is a wild wild west and there is already so much up roar against tiny scooters you see in California. If they start offering full fledged throttle operated motor, people would instantly associate this with reckless riders and have a visceral reaction towards it. So, this is a complicated topic and one they have thought about. For those who want a throttle option, you could always go with a hub motor bike we are developing. Honestly, if you are not doing technical mountain biking, hub motors offer excellent performance at a fraction of the cost of mid-drives.

That is not to say, they can't do it. They have done it for the Chinese market where the scooters are extremely popular.
Their scooter motor is very sophisticated and offers a LOT of power. Take a look at this

 

[pennybags]

I’d argue that the US market is not the wild Wild West. It’s a different market and a lot of people are experimenting. I’m sure that if the current trend continues, US will equal, if not outpace the EU market in a few years.

US has longer distances by default, and you need more speed and more power for that. People are also more willing to ride on regular roads along side cars, instead of sidewalks.

In terms of throttle, Bosch can absolutely offer one exclusively for the US market. There is nothing preventing them from doing that. And just say that the bikes are for off-road only, or for regular road use only. And that goes for other bike manufacturers too.

Every bike manufacturer has issues. There is no way that the current Bosch system is legal under any EU conditions. If they want to do anything above 80 to 85 N meters of torque, that has to be more than at least 500 W power. It’s just physics. Currently there is no clear way of measuring what the actual peak output power is, and that gives Bosch the wiggle room perhaps? Haibike flyon are selling the TQ motor equipped bikes as mountain bikes. Those are clearly above regulations. There's nothing wrong in that. I have heard from Ebike builders that you can add throttle to the Flyon.

In any case, adding a throttle doesn’t automatically disqualify a manufacturer. It adds options for the end consumer. Those who don’t need it, don’t need to install it. It’s not hard. Just give consumers a choice.
I’m sure BAFANG sells in the EU with throttle Btw.

 

[vincent]

agree with pennybags, they could make one for the US market

i see lots of people riding throttle equipped bikes here and going slower than analog road bikers

 

[Explorer-1]

The fact the Bosch has no throttle might be a good thing, as it gives other companies another niche to compete in rather than just on price, Looks like Bosch finally has something with the Gen 4 motors, but still lots of room for competition.

Full throttle ahead!

 

[pennybags]

i see lots of people riding throttle equipped bikes here and going slower than analog road bikers

ha ha. I got tired of Lycra clad snobby monsters racing past me at 23-28 mph.Now atlesst I can keep up with them. Ha ha.