Zen Samurai Diamond

[bob armani]

Ravi- It appears you are on to something big here. Looks like you have worked diligently to put together a really impressive list of components to fit on this bike.
Cannot wait to see this project evolve in the coming months and hope you will have everything put together exactly as planned. Great luck to you and your team.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Ravi- It appears you are on to something big here. Looks like you have worked diligently to put together a really impressive list of components to fit on this bike.
Cannot wait to see this project evolve in the coming months and hope you will have everything put together exactly as planned. Great luck to you and your team.

Thank you, Bob!
Appreciate it. I should still be in Illinois when the frames arrive and you're welcome to test drive the bike before I leave to Canada.
Message me your phone number so I can keep in touch.

 

[bob armani]

Thank you, Bob!
Appreciate it. I should still be in Illinois when the frames arrive and you're welcome to test drive the bike before I leave to Canada.
Message me your phone number so I can keep in touch.

Thanks so much Ravi. That is a very kind offer. I'll see what I can do to hook up.

 

[Johnny]

Hi Ravi do you have any news for the full suspension version ?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Hi Ravi do you have any news for the full suspension version ?

Not yet, John.
The frame needs to go extensive testing to ensure the suspended rack can hold 100 lbs and the frame is stiff enough for thousands of miles.
This process takes quite a bit of time.

 

[Ebiker01]

Pictures, website ? Looks like a nice project.
Internal wiring for lights capabilities ?
ex. - A Seca 1800 would need 1.9a at Peak in
Hi power , 12V.

 

[AdilDesai]

So is the only difference between this bike and the Watt Wagon Superbike the Bosch motor?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

his bike and the Watt Wagon Superbike the Bosch motor?

I believe there are couple of differences:

1. 7005 aluminum on the Zen Samurai Diamond vs I'm not sure what Aluminum grade on the WW it is.
   
   
2. Electronic shifting with Rohloff E-14 vs manual with Bafang ultra.
   
   
3. Thru-axle for both front and rear wheels for extra stability and ease of wheel installation.
   
   
4. Kiox or Nyon (both with theft prevention lock mode). Nyon has built-in GPS navigation. Kiox/Nyon displays come with Gorilla glass.
   
   
5. Weight (Bosch motor is 8 lbs lighter than the Ultra). Sure, the Ultra is more powerful. Bosch is smoother in power application.
   
   
6. Most importantly, the reliability and service options in the US market for Bosch vs Bafang.
   
   
7. Bosch has 18W light output whereas Bafang has 3W, so the wiring is quite different. Bosch lights can be turned on or off from the display, along with low-high beam.
   If you hook up M99 pro directly to the battery on the ultra, then you can't control on/off from the display. you will need a relay circuit for that.

 

[PDB415]

This bike looks like the real deal to me. Will it be able to perform on gravel trails and really crappy urban roads?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

This bike looks like the real deal to me. Will it be able to perform on gravel trails and really crappy urban roads?

Actually, we made a some changes to the frame so that the bike can function as a cross country MTB as well if you remove the fenders and rack.
The bike can take upto 2.8" tires and it can certainly light trails (not 10ft drops) and rough roads.

We designed a bike that we would LOVE to ride. There is no point in designing a mediocre bike that doesn't fare well against the designs of Trek, Giant etc. so we had to make it REALLY good.

 

[byunbee]

First of all, I want to state that I think both bikes will turn out to be top quality reliable bikes that will offer buyers years of enjoyment. But to be fair, I think this response needs to be put into context. They are very similar bikes with the exception of a few main differences (if we start calling out each and every component, then there would be no end):

Zen Samurai Diamond​	Watt Wagons New Ultimate Commuter Pro​
Bosch Gen4 CX 250W nominal	Bafang Ultra with Archon X1 controller up to 2300W nominal
No Throttle	Throttle
Thru Axle	Quick Release
Ability to turn on/off Supernova M99 Pro	Supernova M99 Pro turns off after few mins of being stationary

Ravi's Post
I believe there are couple of differences:

1. 7005 aluminum on the Zen Samurai Diamond vs I'm not sure what Aluminum grade on the WW it is. - You can't call this out as a difference if you don't know the frame material of the WW.
   
   
2. Electronic shifting with Rohloff E-14 vs manual with Bafang ultra. - This is Bosch specific and would be a high cost upgrade
   
   
3. Thru-axle for both front and rear wheels for extra stability and ease of wheel installation. - Valid difference
   
   
4. Kiox or Nyon (both with theft prevention lock mode). Nyon has built-in GPS navigation. Kiox/Nyon displays come with Gorilla glass. - This is Bosch Specific
   
   
5. Weight (Bosch motor is 8 lbs lighter than the Ultra). Sure, the Ultra is more powerful. Bosch is smoother in power application. - Weight savings is valid but you can't say it offers smoother power application if you haven't tried the Bafang Ultra with the new Archon X1 controller which is supposed to be just as good across the full spectrum of the much more powerful motor
   
   
6. Most importantly, the reliability and service options in the US market for Bosch vs Bafang. - Better reliability? I'm not so sure; wider service network? definitely However, if either motor has issues, the service network is really irrelevant to the consumer since we would be contacting @Ravi or @pushkar to resolve our issues.
   
   
7. Bosch has 18W light output whereas Bafang has 3W, so the wiring is quite different. Bosch lights can be turned on or off from the display, along with low-high beam.
   If you hook up M99 pro directly to the battery on the ultra, then you can't control on/off from the display. you will need a relay circuit for that. - Valid difference

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

but you can't say it offers smoother power application if you haven't tried the Bafang Ultra with the new Archon X1 controller which is supposed to be just as good across the full spectrum of the much more powerful motor

Can you share pictures of the X1 controller?
I have not seen any. Pictures of the real X1 controller, it's circuitry is more important than graphs. I cannot even find a single website for Innotrace company and any details on the web for Archon X1 from the company that produces it or the spec sheet. I am not sure what Innotrace produces, what their products are and how long they will continue to do. I have not seen them or met them.

Supernova M99 Pro turns off after few mins of being stationary

I'm not sure about that. I had the M99 Pro on my Stromer ST2-S for a long time. Stromer had to engineer the firmware to accept the M99 Pro and wire it to the existing controls.
So, if you turn off the bike, the lights would turn off. In the case of Ultra without the relay, you have to turn off the bike and turn off or remove the battery.

You can't call this out as a difference if you don't know the frame material of the WW.

Most reention tubes are made of 6061 aluminium.

This is Bosch Specific

The new Kiox and Nyon displays very nice compared to Bafang displays. I have tested both and I can attest to that.

However, if either motor has issues, the service network is really irrelevant to the consumer

This is perhaps more relevant than any of the above. Bosch has 100's of trained authorized Bosch service centers across the nation. Any of those centers can work on the motor, update the firmware, order parts from Bosch USA. From my experience, every Trek shop I have visited, were willing to work on my Bosch bike. This makes servicing so MUCH easier. We just coordinate with those service centers.

As i said, i can't even find Innotrace website and its spec sheet. If the bafang is not serious about improving their controller and some other company has to produce controller for them and I can't even find the website for Innotrace and their commitment to the space, this is a risk, I am not willing to take. I have met with Bosch folks and even picked up few motor kits last weekend. I can't even find a single Bafang personnel within the US.

 

[TomD]

Can you share pictures of the X1 controller?

Pushkar has one on the upgrade page:

Archon X1 controller-only upgrade for your Bafang Ultra

We are excited to offer Archon X1 controller-only upgrades for your own Bafang Ultra! After proving out the controller, and a lot of testing, we feel comfortable that this controller can be adopted across a vast majority of the Bafang Ultra bikes out there. Please read the entire description...

wattwagons.com

 

[TomD]

So is the only difference between this bike and the Watt Wagon Superbike the Bosch motor?

I think the most significant differentiating factor is the weight of the bikes. Compare the Specialized Vado to the SL version. They are not really comparable and will have very different appeal to different users.

 

[byunbee]

Can you share pictures of the X1 controller?
I have not seen any. Pictures of the real X1 controller, it's circuitry is more important than graphs. I cannot even find a single website for Innotrace company and any details on the web for Archon X1 from the company that produces it or the spec sheet. I am not sure what Innotrace produces, what their products are and how long they will continue to do. I have not seen them or met them.

• Not sure how to answer that. Just because you haven't met them doesn't mean they don't exist. Whether it's graphs or spec sheets, they are just data for presentation. @pushkar is selling the new controller and/or with the Bafang Ultra. He's also been testing the motor with the new controller for months. So, I have to put faith in his claims at this point.

I'm not sure about that. I had the M99 Pro on my Stromer ST2-S for a long time. Stromer had to engineer the firmware to accept the M99 Pro and wire it to the existing controls.
So, if you turn off the bike, the lights would turn off. In the case of Ultra without the relay, you have to turn off the bike and turn off or remove the battery.

• My understanding it that the M99 Pro lights are motion activated and will turn off after few minutes when stationary. I can't imagine the light being on constantly when parked.

Most reention tubes are made of 6061 aluminium.

• I leave it to @pushkar to comment on this since he's the only one who knows at this point.

The new Kiox and Nyon displays very nice compared to Bafang displays. I have tested both and I can attest to that.

• I don't doubt that they are better displays than the stock Bafang. I think the UC Pro will use the Eggrider with custom firmware.

This is perhaps more relevant than any of the above. Bosch has 100's of trained authorized Bosch service centers across the nation. Any of those centers can work on the motor, update the firmware, order parts from Bosch USA. From my experience, every Trek shop I have visited, were willing to work on my Bosch bike. This makes servicing so MUCH easier. We just coordinate with those service centers.

• Valid point

As i said, i can't even find Innotrace website and its spec sheet. If the bafang is not serious about improving their controller and some other company has to produce controller for them and I can't even find the website for Innotrace and their commitment to the space, this is a risk, I am not willing to take. I have met with Bosch folks and even picked up few motor kits last weekend. I can't even find a single Bafang personnel within the US.

• Doesn't Bafang have U.S. headquarters in Las Vegas?
• Frey also is looking into the Bafang with the new controller
• https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=517529225787081
• I believe people use the name Exess and Innotrace controllers synonymously
• Some posts on various forums
  • https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=102068
  • https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/bj74bi

 

[byunbee]

I think the most significant differentiating factor is the weight of the bikes. Compare the Specialized Vado to the SL version. They are not really comparable and will have very different appeal to different users.

Weight definitely is a factor, but I think the biggest differentiators are the motor power and the throttle. Each bike is for different audience, some people want the Bosch with no throttle, while customers of WW want the big boost in power and the throttle.

 

[TomD]

Better comparison would be to the M600 offering from Watt Wagons. At least then you are comparing bikes that appeal to similar audiences looking for something in the 50 pound range. IMO weight is a bigger differentiator than power (or throttle). The extra weight applies 100% of the time whereas most don't ride in full assist, even those with euro spec motors. IME additional weight changes the character of the bike and ride far more than peak power or the addition of throttle.

 

[opimax]

i am not putting myself between these 2 fine bike builders. I am not sure which bike I would choose if both were in front of me until I test rode them. I am biased towards speed though I purchased a WattWagon before this was available. I would like to add to this discussion that I believe if you purchase a WW with Kindernay system you get 2 through axles. This may bring up other questions for comparison though.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Whether it's graphs or spec sheets, they are just data for presentation.

Without a Dyno, a graph is just a graph. I would be interested if you could share some of the sources of that data and how it was tested.

It may be also good to understand what is a sampling frequency and what are the factors being sampled?
I have been doing in-depth analysis of Bosch and even I can't find what is being sampled and what method is used for sampling the torque, cadence and speed.
If I had that kind of understanding of the circuitry, I can produce a controller on my own without depending on anyone.

My understanding it that the M99 Pro lights are motion activated and will turn off after few minutes when stationary. I can't imagine the light being on constantly when parked.

I have 3-4 years of experience dealing with M99 Pro on the ST2-S and it is an excellent light but it does not have motion sensors.
The M99 Pro light uses CAN bus communication protocol to know when the bike is speeding up or slowing down. This has to be done right to be able to use that feature.
Bosch uses CAN protocol but that is not the case with Bafang Ultra. Using this CAN protocol to relay the bike speed ad aligning all the right connectors is not a trivial thing.

If the CAN communication protocol is not wired in and configured properly then the light has no way of receiving information that the bike is not moving. The light has ambient sensors as shown below but there are no motion sensors in the light. There are not gyroscope sensors either. Light receives the information abut movement via CAN bus supply.
Even on the Stromer ST2-S, the sensor worked for switching between DRL to low-beam but they used to incorporate the high-low switch to their existing board by re configuring their firmware.

I hope it works out for you. If done right, it can be configured to work well.

 

[byunbee]

Without a Dyno, a graph is just a graph. I would be interested if you could share some of the sources of that data and how it was tested.

It may be also good to understand what is a sampling frequency and what are the factors being sampled?
I have been doing in-depth analysis of Bosch and even I can't find what is being sampled and what method is used for sampling the torque, cadence and speed.
If I had that kind of understanding of the circuitry, I can produce a controller on my own without depending on anyone.



I have 3-4 years of experience dealing with M99 Pro on the ST2-S and it is an excellent light but it does not have motion sensors.
The M99 Pro light uses CAN bus communication protocol to know when the bike is speeding up or slowing down. This has to be done right to be able to use that feature.
Bosch uses CAN protocol but that is not the case with Bafang Ultra. Using this CAN protocol to relay the bike speed ad aligning all the right connectors is not a trivial thing.

View attachment 56387

If the CAN communication protocol is not wired in and configured properly then the light has no way of receiving information that the bike is not moving. The light has ambient sensors as shown below but there are no motion sensors in the light. There are not gyroscope sensors either. Light receives the information abut movement via CAN bus supply.
Even on the Stromer ST2-S, the sensor worked for switching between DRL to low-beam but they used to incorporate the high-low switch to their existing board by re configuring their firmware.

I hope it works out for you. If done right, it can be configured to work well.



View attachment 56388



View attachment 56390

@Ravi Kempaiah, I don't doubt your vast knowledge and expertise around the technical electronics aspects of various ebike components. Although I understand what you are trying to convey here, it's really beyond what I can respond to..
I defer to @pushkar to respond to this as he's been testing this.