With a 5kw battery does the Sondors 5grand Emoto presents the proof that ebikers are getting ripped off by Bosch and others ??

[Ebiker01]

My 605wh pack retails for 899$+tax.The rear hub motor wheel another 1grand. This are top high end parts( TD hi tech /Japanese motor).
But most "ingredients" are chinese which is fine as that how mostly everything is made nowadays.

I've heard from various sources that the markup for an ebike is anywhere from 30 to 40%, that's for the LBS , there's maybe another 30% when leaving from the factory.

Sondors Emoto...ok 5kw pack is probably 300-330 pieces of 18650cells. The powerful motor makes a few KW.

How can they achieve such a price or are they losing money by selling at this price ?

First look at the low-cost SONDORS Metacycle electric motorcycle's removable battery

When the 80 mph (130 km/h) SONDORS Metacycle was first unveiled in January of this year, it shocked the industry...

electrek.co

And It's not that easy carrying the 54 pound battery like that video editing makes it look like .

 

[Alaskan]

You are comparing a Kia and a Mercedes or apples and oranges, if you prefer. What you actually get might just something that looks like a Kia but has inferior, phony parts that look alike but use cheaper alloys or fake, or older cells in the battery that you would never see but might not live up to expectations. How prompt is warranty service? Will you be able to buy a replacement in 3 or 4 years?

Bosch ebike products have significant added value in the form of proven reliability, excellent and a near instant technical service phone line, and well stocked North American parts inventory. Bosch also has made a public commitment to support all ebike products with parts and tech support for 10 years of product introduction. Bosch has been around since 1886 with the ebike division established in 2009. Bosch electrical components have been and are used on many of the world's respected automobiles. If you have ever owned a Bosch power tool you would get the value and why paying a premium for their products is a smart choice.

The Sondors company has been around for only 5 years. There is no real or valid comparison between an internet bike with parts from a country famous for making things cheaper, in many cases with counterfeit, bootleg parts.

If this risk is worth $200 to you, go for it. But go into it with your eyes open. Don't let the savings blind you to the risks you might be taking.

 

[ElevenAD]

i would never use Sonders as an example, it will be another friggin 5 years before that bike actually ships lol, in the mean time it may as well be a sketching!

 

[Dallant]

Stupid thread title of the year.

 

[K PierreR]

It cost significantly more to make an e bike a bicycle than it does to make an e bike a moped/scooter. All the way from the material used to build the frame to the cells used in the battery, to the construction of the tires. A 18 lb road bike costs more than a 24lb road bike.

 

[Ebiker33]

This made me think of the Livewire EMotorcycle from Harley at 30K at 25K more than the new Sondors, the question is, is it really worth it?
Yes it's a better machine, but I am solid middle class and I can't afford that. I can afford the new Sondors I was thinking of spending that much on a new Ebike anyways.
But Sonders replacement parts are the lowest prices in the industry as well, their profit margin must be razor thin and they must be buying better then anybody else, for example their Bafang ultra is only $349.00, that is a crazy low price if you know what other places sell that for. Their 48V 21amp/hr battery is only $459.00 that is very low, and it has already been tested to go all day. By comparison, not to pick on anybody but to show you what a deal that really is, Biktrix charges $819.00 to upgrade to that specification.

 

[Alaskan]

But Sonders replacement parts are the lowest prices in the industry as well, their profit margin must be razor thin and they must be buying better then anybody else,.

If you look through the various categories of parts on their site you will notice that well over half of them have no picture. That is because all of the ones with no picture are out of stock. Low prices on items that are out of stock are meaningless.

I would add that the Sondors is quite stingy with their warranty as it is only good for one year on everything. Most bike carry a longer warranty on the their frames and the better one carry a lifetime warranty on the frame...yet one more proof that you get what you pay for and seldom much more.

ps. I have nothing against Sondors. They were the company the OP chose to use in bashing Bosch. His choice not mine.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

One thing I've noticed in the last coupe of years is that bike shops are getting much more fussy about repairing e-bikes, even for non-electric components that are identical.

In general your two best bets are (1) go back to the exact shop that sold your bike and they will *probably* be able to help you, or (2) have a Bosch bike and go to a bike shop that is Bosch-certified. A distant third is to have a Pedego ebike and go to the nearest Pedego dealer. I leave that as a "distant third" because in much of the country you are a long way from a Pedego dealer.

So there is a value add to having a Bosch bike that is not being accounted for here. Yes, I can often do my own repairs but if you are out on a trip and all of your good tools and your work stand is at home you might be pretty stuck.

 

[Scarlet/Fire]

This made me think of the Livewire EMotorcycle from Harley at 30K at 25K more than the new Sondors, the question is, is it really worth it?
Yes it's a better machine, but I am solid middle class and I can't afford that. I can afford the new Sondors I was thinking of spending that much on a new Ebike anyways.
But Sonders replacement parts are the lowest prices in the industry as well, their profit margin must be razor thin and they must be buying better then anybody else, for example their Bafang ultra is only $349.00, that is a crazy low price if you know what other places sell that for. Their 48V 21amp/hr battery is only $459.00 that is very low, and it has already been tested to go all day. By comparison, not to pick on anybody but to show you what a deal that really is, Biktrix charges $819.00 to upgrade to that specification.

Agree- on my budget with plenty of comparison,I went for Sondors,the deal maker was the $400 replacement battery- and btw -this is a quality bike with zero issues , quality parts for the price point (no counterfeit) at 4K happy miles! Cheers

 

[Ebiker33]

If you look through the various categories of parts on their site you will notice that well over half of them have no picture. That is because all of the ones with no picture are out of stock. Low prices on items that are out of stock are meaningless.

I would add that the Sondors is quite stingy with their warranty as it is only good for one year on everything. Most bike carry a longer warranty on the their frames and the better one carry a lifetime warranty on the frame...yet one more proof that you get what you pay for and seldom much more.

ps. I have nothing against Sondors. They were the company the OP chose to use in bashing Bosch. His choice not mine.

If they allow me to backorder a backup part for that price that I don't need right now, I really don't care. I do care I can save over 50% over another companies prices.

 

[Alaskan]

If they allow me to backorder a backup part for that price that I don't need right now, I really don't care. I do care I can save over 50% over another companies prices.

Just curious what the part is that you ordered and how much are you saving by being willing to wait for an unspecified period of time?
Is it something essential for you to be able to use your bike some peripheral accessory?
If that were the case, just how long would you be willing to wait before cancelling the order and going to a bricks and mortar LBS, paying full retail to get riding again?

 

[Scarlet/Fire]

If they allow me to backorder a backup part for that price that I don't need right now, I really don't care. I do care I can save over 50% over another companies prices.

I think of Sondors like Toyota in the early 70s - lots of baggage combined with “why would anyone buy such a little car” “why is it so cheap “ haha well....

 

[troehrkasse]

One thing I've noticed in the last coupe of years is that bike shops are getting much more fussy about repairing e-bikes, even for non-electric components that are identical.

Just speculation, but I wonder how long those shops will be able to survive. Ebikes are steadily growing in popularity and servicing them is a great revenue opportunity for any shops willing to "get with the times", if you will. Not that non-electric bikes are going anywhere... but any shop that will willingly service both will get a leg up on their competitors.

For what it's worth I've noticed the opposite trend here in northern Colorado... but that's just among the handful of shops I visit regularly, very small sample size!

But Sonders replacement parts are the lowest prices in the industry as well, their profit margin must be razor thin and they must be buying better then anybody else

I think they also run very lean and mean in terms of staffing. Speaking of the Livewire, did you try it out? They are stocked at a HD dealer near me and I want to go in for a test ride... but I'm afraid of how much I might like it

 

[Ebiker33]

Just curious what the part is that you ordered and how much are you saving by being willing to wait for an unspecified period of time?
Is it something essential for you to be able to use your bike some peripheral accessory?
If that were the case, just how long would you be willing to wait before cancelling the order and going to a bricks and mortar LBS, paying full retail to get riding again?

An example would be a back up battery, the original is 21 amp hour, I don't need it, I want it, and I can wait. It won't impact my riding.
People say a 21 amp battery wears their rear end out before it gives out.

 

[troehrkasse]

People say a 21 amp battery wears their rear end out before it gives out.

100% agree. A tech I met last year said it best: "Forget about battery pack range, what's your butt range?"

 

[Ebiker33]

Just speculation, but I wonder how long those shops will be able to survive. Ebikes are steadily growing in popularity and servicing them is a great revenue opportunity for any shops willing to "get with the times", if you will. Not that non-electric bikes are going anywhere... but any shop that will willingly service both will get a leg up on their competitors.

For what it's worth I've noticed the opposite trend here in northern Colorado... but that's just among the handful of shops I visit regularly, very small sample size!


I think they also run very lean and mean in terms of staffing. Speaking of the Livewire, did you try it out? They are stocked at a HD dealer near me and I want to go in for a test ride... but I'm afraid of how much I might like it

I think you recently visited Ebikes USA and the owner specifically said he is going after that market, he is smart. The used Ebike market is going to grow as the first adopters move on to the better Ebikes and sell their first generation Ebikes, and those people are going to need a place to go to get their non-warranty Ebikes serviced. It's will be a growing market for any LBS to at least try out. And it will be in the interest of the online only web sellers to support those LBS with parts, if they don't, they are going to tell the end user, and word of mouth over time will get around.

 

[PedalUma]

I think of Sondors like Toyota in the early 70s - lots of baggage combined with “why would anyone buy such a little car” “why is it so cheap “ haha well....

I do not have much experience with Sondors having only worked on and ridden two. These are Hee-Haw monsters. They are very heavy porkers. The welds are cheep. There are bundles of ugly wires at the handlebar. The handling is terrible. The new LX has a low range and cannot take hills very well. One would not know this from a data sheet. It is a matter of riding the bikes side-by-side. You could look at a data sheet of a crappy piano and see that it has the same number of strings as a Steinway. I just put a nice new chain on a Sondors today as part of a tune up. If someone does not know better and they are happy, that is great. A good eBike will weigh-in at 35 pounds. I did repair a throttle yesterday by using a set screw on the underside.

 

[troehrkasse]

The new LX has a low range and cannot take hills very well.

I'll agree it's a huge, heavy bike... but I have to disagree with you here. What is "low range" for you?

As for hills, it's a beast on those as long as you shift down to low gear. I just spent several hours with one for a review, zooming right up hills even with just the throttle.

A good eBike will weigh-in at 35 pounds

35 pounds is super light for an eBike! What are you riding that weighs in that low? Side note, I really like your double scales under the wheels method for weighing. I have a luggage scale that can handle up to 150 pounds but on some of these bigger bikes it is challenging to say the least...

 

[EMGX]

My 605wh pack retails for 899$+tax.The rear hub motor wheel another 1grand. This are top high end parts( TD hi tech /Japanese motor).
But most "ingredients" are chinese which is fine as that how mostly everything is made nowadays.

I've heard from various sources that the markup for an ebike is anywhere from 30 to 40%, that's for the LBS , there's maybe another 30% when leaving from the factory.

Sondors Emoto...ok 5kw pack is probably 300-330 pieces of 18650cells. The powerful motor makes a few KW.

How can they achieve such a price or are they losing money by selling at this price ?

First look at the low-cost SONDORS Metacycle electric motorcycle's removable battery

When the 80 mph (130 km/h) SONDORS Metacycle was first unveiled in January of this year, it shocked the industry...

electrek.co

And It's not that easy carrying the 54 pound battery like that video editing makes it look like .

I doubt that anyone is losing money selling ebikes. It is likely that markups are very high which explains why there are so many ebike sellers including high end and low end bikes. It looks like price and feature competition might be starting to kick in some and that might accelerate as we come out of the pandemic and especially as the market gets more saturated.

 

[PedalUma]

I doubt that anyone is losing money selling ebikes. It is likely that markups are very high which explains why there are so many ebike sellers including high end and low end bikes. It looks like price and feature competition might be starting to kick in some and that might accelerate as we come out of the pandemic and especially as the market gets more saturated.

Two replies in one:
The 35.2 pounder was a Specialized conversion with thru-frame wires. It is purple. 80Nm. The scales in the photo are metric and upside-down. 6.2 + 9.8 Kg at the rear. 60/40 weight distribution 8cm above the hubs.
I wonder about Economic Zones. Within these labor is highly subsidized to train young workers into skilled labor.